Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Wrapped up an impromptu christmas eve game vs. mech guard a couple hours ago. Nothing I expected to happen actually happened, and while I did score a win, I learned very little about the wraith wing.

Here's the quick and dirty:

Against 6+ chimeras and 4 tanks. Capture and Control. Spearhead. Acting second.

Positioned my wraiths in an offensive stance, shielding my scarabs for an alpha rush. My entire army a tight, aggressive knot, trying to push diagonally through center field. I use a pulse turn 1, and he searchlights my lead wraith squad... after a full round of concentrated shooting, ended up killing 4.

My turn, I can only reach 1 chimera with my scarabs, wreck it. Tesla Destructor fire stuns almost his entire front line. I then lose the entire scarab unit to a single hellhound template. At this point, I'm pretty excited because it looks like it's really going to be an impossible fight for me.

But then Anrakyr gets revenge by using his hellhound to barbeque 3 chimeras. Wrecking, stunning, and immobilizing them.

As the game progresses, my opponent unsuccessfully tries to wreck my ccb and kill my wraiths, but neither is happening; meanwhile every round my tesla destructors have the freedom to rain stuns and shakes down all over his line.

Despite insane firepower, I only lose a handful of models throughout the game. Because Anrakyr was blessed by the dice gods, I managed to use IG's own tanks against him every turn after the 1st. It wasn't until turns 4 and 5 that I started losing my own vehicles, but by then the entire battle was taking place in my opponent's deployment zone, and my objective was secure.

The point of all this is, there was no way I should have won, but once again, the dice came down in favor of the wraiths, and we called it before the bottom of the fifth.

I took a big risk with an 'alpha strike' deployment, and the wraiths became a massive heatsink that kept all the pressure off the remainder of my army. In 3 turns of moves and assaults, despite all the fire, the wraiths were in the back field wrecking everything.

All I really learned was that anrakyr is a dastardly villain, and I am never taking him out of my list (until maybe next time, when he doesn't work 100% of the time)

Zid wrote:
The way I look at lists I want to run is "if I play this list, can it beat my Blood Angels, Dark Eldar, and Daemons competative lists more times than not?" If the answers maybe, I test it. If the answers No, I scrap it. If the answers yes in any form, I test it against others.

Don't forget Grey Knights and Imperial Guards. IMO, they are still the top dogs and the true tier-1 armies. Necrons are not quite there yet. Honestly, I'm not sure if my wraithwing can beat my Crowe-Purifiers or even my Draigowing armies and it may have problems against a manticore list run by a savvy IG general.


----------------------------------------------


Lately, I've been playing around with a new idea to make my Maximum Threat Overload wraithwing build even scarier - Doom Scythes! So far, I've only played 1 game with it against Sisters of Battle (battle report here) and need to test out more games, but I think they complement my list just as well as any other unit.

This is the list that I ran:

2K Necrons (My list)

Necron Overlord - Mindshackle Scarabs, Phase Shifter, Warscythe, Weave
Catacomb Command Barge
1x Cryptek - Harbinger of Destruction, Solar Pulse

Destroyer Lord - Mindshackle Scarabs, Warscythe, Weave

5x Warriors
5x Warriors
5x Warriors
5x Warriors
Night Scythe

10x Canoptek Scarabs
6x Canoptek Wraiths - 3x Whip Coils, 1x Particle Blaster
6x Canoptek Wraiths - 4x Whip Coils (Had extra 5pts left)

3x Canoptek Spyders - Claw Array, Gloom Prism
Doom Scythe
Doom Scythe


It's now got 6 really fast threats - command barge, scarabs, 2x wraiths and 2x doom scythes - to really crank up the pressure on my opponent. Eventually, when I finish building my 2nd command barge, I will swap out the destroyer lord and get rid of some of the upgrades on my overlord to add a 7th threat to my army.

I'm hoping to test out this build next week against Reecius' tournament-winning, anti-meta 6-leman russ IG army. Check out his tactica here. I think it would make for a great fight.

Killer Batrep so far Jy2, what a treat, doom scythes and sisters of battle, I can't wait to see the conclusion.

We discussed the possibility of a full scythewing pretty early on in this thread; running 4 night scythes and 2 doom scythes, but it (the idea) got shot down pretty fast, on the grounds that the scythes would get shot down too fast. Glad to see the doom scythes working!

Looks like a massacre so far. Definitely fits your 'threat overload' style!

I still think the scythes are an awesome idea in a list, the key is making sure your other threats can't be ignored. Usually with two wrath units and scarabs I don't think they can be.

Red Corsair wrote:I still think the scythes are an awesome idea in a list, the key is making sure your other threats can't be ignored. Usually with two wrath units and scarabs I don't think they can be.

+1.
Every game I've seen them in, Scythes dish out a stupid amount of firepower for the cost. If you force your opponents shooting with wriaths and scarabs, those scythes will do a lot of damage over the course of the game.

Hey, can captain "I steal your tank" do it from inside a transport?

-Matt

It requires LOS so if it is an open topped vehicle then yes.

jy2 wrote:

Zid wrote:
The way I look at lists I want to run is "if I play this list, can it beat my Blood Angels, Dark Eldar, and Daemons competative lists more times than not?" If the answers maybe, I test it. If the answers No, I scrap it. If the answers yes in any form, I test it against others.

Don't forget Grey Knights and Imperial Guards. IMO, they are still the top dogs and the true tier-1 armies. Necrons are not quite there yet. Honestly, I'm not sure if my wraithwing can beat my Crowe-Purifiers or even my Draigowing armies and it may have problems against a manticore list run by a savvy IG general.

I'm going off things I myself can play, all my lists have been tried and true against IG (not so much GK, only played them twice). Other armies it would have to be play as I go... I get ONE game a week if I'm lucky, so its kinda hard to get a ton of test games in (back when I started I was able to get 4-5 games per week in)

jy2 wrote:

Zid wrote:
The way I look at lists I want to run is "if I play this list, can it beat my Blood Angels, Dark Eldar, and Daemons competative lists more times than not?" If the answers maybe, I test it. If the answers No, I scrap it. If the answers yes in any form, I test it against others.

Don't forget Grey Knights and Imperial Guards. IMO, they are still the top dogs and the true tier-1 armies. Necrons are not quite there yet. Honestly, I'm not sure if my wraithwing can beat my Crowe-Purifiers or even my Draigowing armies and it may have problems against a manticore list run by a savvy IG general.


----------------------------------------------


Lately, I've been playing around with a new idea to make my Maximum Threat Overload wraithwing build even scarier - Doom Scythes! So far, I've only played 1 game with it against Sisters of Battle (battle report here) and need to test out more games, but I think they complement my list just as well as any other unit.

This is the list that I ran:

2K Necrons (My list)

Necron Overlord - Mindshackle Scarabs, Phase Shifter, Warscythe, Weave
Catacomb Command Barge
1x Cryptek - Harbinger of Destruction, Solar Pulse

Destroyer Lord - Mindshackle Scarabs, Warscythe, Weave

5x Warriors
5x Warriors
5x Warriors
5x Warriors
Night Scythe

10x Canoptek Scarabs
6x Canoptek Wraiths - 3x Whip Coils, 1x Particle Blaster
6x Canoptek Wraiths - 4x Whip Coils (Had extra 5pts left)

3x Canoptek Spyders - Claw Array, Gloom Prism
Doom Scythe
Doom Scythe


It's now got 6 really fast threats - command barge, scarabs, 2x wraiths and 2x doom scythes - to really crank up the pressure on my opponent. Eventually, when I finish building my 2nd command barge, I will swap out the destroyer lord and get rid of some of the upgrades on my overlord to add a 7th threat to my army.

I'm hoping to test out this build next week against Reecius' tournament-winning, anti-meta 6-leman russ IG army. Check out his tactica here. I think it would make for a great fight.

JY,

Let me know how this goes, I know Reece and I have been going back and forth but I have only fortified my conclusions that Necrons are the worst book GW has ever made. Everything in the book is over priced for what it does because of reanimation protocols. The more games I have played and even against Jwolf I just seeing the book missing a lot of key items. I have gotten to play games were I haven't even lost a model to playing someone with the book. There is just too many problems they have and not enough units to shore up the problem.

junk wrote:Killer Batrep so far Jy2, what a treat, doom scythes and sisters of battle, I can't wait to see the conclusion.

We discussed the possibility of a full scythewing pretty early on in this thread; running 4 night scythes and 2 doom scythes, but it (the idea) got shot down pretty fast, on the grounds that the scythes would get shot down too fast. Glad to see the doom scythes working!

Looks like a massacre so far. Definitely fits your 'threat overload' style!

Besides mobility, the night scythes doesn't really add much to your army IMO. I just ran 1 in my army and don't think I will run more than that. The doom scythes performed very well in my first and only game with them so far. As a matter of fact, I would give them my MVP for that game.

Don't be fooled by their AV11 armor. Design your list properly - with night-fight and other fast threats like wraiths, command barges and/or scarabs to complement them and you'd be surprised at their resiliency. But more importantly, you have to go into the game with the mindset that you will lose them after 1 alpha strike. They could be a great part of the offense, but just don't rely on them sticking around. But not to worry, once your wraiths hit enemy lines, they will be too busy to really focus on your scythes.

Zid wrote:
I'm going off things I myself can play, all my lists have been tried and true against IG (not so much GK, only played them twice). Other armies it would have to be play as I go... I get ONE game a week if I'm lucky, so its kinda hard to get a ton of test games in (back when I started I was able to get 4-5 games per week in)

No worries. The true litmus test is grey knights right now. A properly designed GK army run by a competent general is a beast of an army to beat. In such a matchup, I feel necrons will be the underdog (though it is a winnable battle). I myself may play against SabrX with one of us playing my wraithwing and the other playing either my Crowe-Purifiers or Draigowing (or maybe even both!).

Darkwynn wrote:
JY,

Let me know how this goes, I know Reece and I have been going back and forth but I have only fortified my conclusions that Necrons are the worst book GW has ever made. Everything in the book is over priced for what it does because of reanimation protocols. The more games I have played and even against Jwolf I just seeing the book missing a lot of key items. I have gotten to play games were I haven't even lost a model to playing someone with the book. There is just too many problems they have and not enough units to shore up the problem.

When I play against him, I will post my usual battle report. We both probably will, with him providing a video report and me a written one.

I have seen your article, though I must admit I haven't read it completely yet. The only thing I will say for now is don't be too quick to dismiss them. It is still a young codex and people haven't really uncovered a lot of their strengths yet. While you may think that the units there are overpriced, I think it is with good reason. The synergy in that codex is just incredible! Ironically, some of the best units don't even use RP and are incredibly efficient - wraiths and spyders+scarabs. If anything, they are actually too cheap for what they can do.

I agree with Reece that the new necrons are a fun and good codex with actually a lot of depth. And it could definitely be competitive. While I still need to do a lot of testing against some of the stronger tournament builds out there, I can say with confidence that it can hold its own against many of the top lists out there. Only a very few builds will give it problems.

Wish I had seen this thread sooner. Great discussion so far, a lot of ideas I hadn't considered and will have to ape. It has been encouraging, if not slightly eery, to see other people playing almost the same list I've come up with... My 2000pt list, as it stands:

Anrakyr + Barge (Gauss) [245]
Destroyer Lord (Warscythe, MSS, Weave) [160]
3 Cryptek (2 Lance, 1 Lance/Pulse) [125]

10 Immortals (Tesla, Eternals) [170]
5 Immortals (Gauss) + Night Scythe [185]
5 Immortals (Gauss) + Night Scythe [185]

5 Wraiths (3 Coil, 1 Caster) [210]
5 Wraiths (3 Coil, 1 Caster) [210]
10 Scarabs [150]

3 Spyders (Claw, Gloom) [175]
Annihilation Barge (Tesla) [90]
Annihilation Barge (Tesla) [90]

It started as a Scarab farm (2x6 Scarabs and 1x6 Wraiths), but one unit of Scarabs always seemed to be enough. I had also originally fielded another Overlord in CCB and a second Pulse, but something had to give for the extra Wraiths. Plus I was looking to give the Destroyer Lord a try. So far I've been really happy with the list. The Scythes and A. Barges have both excelled taking out Rhinos and MCs and softening up other targets for the Wraiths... I can't get enough of that 36" shooting. It's perfect for hitting back hard after a turn of hiding in the dark. I considered taking a third Scythe, but I'm cautious about putting too many easy KPs on the table. Two obnoxious proxies is probably enough for the time being anyway.

Others have noted the problem with Scarab/Wraith synergy: the multi-charge can blow up in your face. A power fist or force weapon mashing up your Scarabs can absolutely ruin your Wraiths' day ("No Retreat" is not your friend!) I don't think that's a reason to toss Scarabs out though. It's just something to be wary of---they should only be a liability if you let them be. Don't let your opponent get a multi-charge on Scarabs/Wraiths and don't let the Wraiths enter an assault they won't win. It's easy to get carried away with Wraiths, but if you play them conservatively you shouldn't have an issue. Scarabs are well worth the effort too. WW has few options to deal with heavy armor, and you can't do much better in that department than Scarabs. They'll also draw fire like crazy (as others have noted). People are inordinately afraid of the big blob. That's no problem though...I let my Scarabs sit in cover, growing their numbers, and if my opponent is trying to shoot through their 3++ instead of targeting Wraiths, Scythes, and Barges, more power to them!

I'm still trying to find the right balance between Wraiths, Tesla Destructors, and Scarabs/Spyders. I tried to take as many of each as possible without skewing too much one way or the other. The Destructors seem like the most effective shooting available to WW, so I figured I wanted a minimum of four. I see their primary function as taking out light transports, and those tend to be pretty numerous. Wraiths can serve this role too, but it's not what they should want to be doing. They want the goodies inside, and Destructors can give that to them. I could maybe use more Wraiths, but I figured the Destroyer Lord should pull some of their weight here. If I swapped him out for the CCB-Scythelord again, I'd probably add 2 Wraiths to compensate. One thing I am really happy with is the 3x Spyders. Three is just enough that I can build up my Scarab blob to be a real threat, and enough that their assault can still be effective. I've finished off Terminators and other similarly scary assault troops with these guys...the Spyders make a great a counter-charge unit when the Wraiths can't be around. Also a good chance they'll get to repair a Barge at some point, and that would be pretty neat.

Looking forward to hearing more out of this thread. It's been very informative so far...hope I can contribute in some small part. With any luck, I'll be able write-up a BR myself sometime soon...I've got a ton of ideas reading those that others have posted. Always very interesting to see "your" army played through another person's eyes.

Ok, the ultimate showdown has been set between my doom scythe wraithwing necrons against Reecius' anti-meta Imperial Guards (battle report here). Reece's IG is a little unusual....not at all like the normal vendetta/manticore/chimelta-spam IG you normally see....but that is because it was designed as an "anti-meta" list. Thus, it will make missile-spam, hive-guard-spam, lance-spam and psyfleman-spam MSU armies irrelevant. He took it to a local tournament and won with it. I think his army would make a wonderful test-bed to gauge the competitiveness of my Maximum Threat Overload philosophy and necrons on the whole.

After this battle, I will test it against Grey Knights. If necrons can compete against those 2, then they are definitely a very good army.

WhigWam, that is almost exactly the list i've been using for the last 7 games I've played. So far I've got 6 wins and 1 draw (C&C vs Orks). How's it treating you? I still haven't gotten to run it up against nids or draigowing yet, but I'm looking forward to it.

Jy2! Obviously, we all hope to see you run roughshod over the Imperials with the wraithwing, but again, I want to ask about those 5x5 warriors squads? I mean, I get them as scoring units, but do you feel like they contribute anything to the actual game? I find myself dropping a 10 man immortal/eternal squad into the crossfire and coming out sparkling. I'd be nervous about getting those grots in the mix.

[edit] Sorry, 4x5 warriors, didn't realize you'd subbed in the night scythe, so +1 on that.

jy2 wrote:lance-spam

Well, not that one as we don't care about AV 14. From playing against the crons, I currently think the best start for a list is;

Warriors x 5 (or immortals), Night Scythe
Warriors x 5 (or immortals), Night Scythe
Warriors x 5 (or immortals), Night Scythe
Warriors x 5 (or immortals), Night Scythe
Warriors x 5 (or immortals), Night Scythe
Warriors x 5 (or immortals), Night Scythe

Fill to flavour

The biggest problem with this many Night Scythes is the sheer number of points they take up. I find the mobility and damage output staggering, but you need to find the right amount of balance. If planning a WW list you would be up to nearly 1500pts with no HQ or any other support units on the field.

However I do agree with putting as many into a list as you can. This tweaked version (non-WW) for our game tomorrow will have 4. Will be posting results and thoughts here.

I Have been fallowing along and am grateful for all the input every one has put in. I am switching over from daemons and the list I am working on is similar in a lot of ways , but I have been using 2 ghost arks, 2 CCB, 3 annihilation barges and 1 NS.

The thing I am having trouble fallowing is why every one has chosen night scythes over ghost arks with out much discussion. Instead of paying a warrior tax on the night scythes , why not use them in the open topped ghost arks.

In my games the 5 tesla destructors have worked well backed by gauss suppression and anti troop.

I guess what I am asking Is what am I missing ?

Deviant,

The mobility of the Night Scythes complements the high mobility of the wraith wing, but it doesn't mean that a ghost ark is not a valid choice.

It comes down to the principles of the WW.

You're using at least 2x5 units of Jump Infantry, usually 2x6 as either a front line, an anchor, a clean up crew, or an alpha strike; usually fulfilling more than 1 of those functions in a fight.

You're investing around 420-750 points into your wraiths, so you can't put them out there to be focused on unless you have them backed up by additional high priority threats. As Jy2 has named it "maximum threat overload" (MTO from here on).

Ghost Arks bring heavier armor and lots of gauss to the fight, they can also provide critical cover saves, draw fire, and carry a royal court while escorting warriors. All important functions, but they're ponderous. If they escort foot slogging warriors, they're limited by the movement speed of those warriors. If the warriors are embarked in them they can move 12", but they're not shooting. They can deliver warriors who can shoot however, and that alone may be the only way to keep up with the threat bubble created by the wraiths.

Now if you're going to be moving 12" and disembarking to shoot, you're better off with the night scythes. Scythes can move 12" disembark a squad, and still fire the impressive tesla destructors. Now true, the scythe can't rebuild fallen warriors, but it can carry immortals, which are far more durable than warriors, and will less likely need the reconstruction.

Yes, night scythes are flimsier than Ghost Arks vs. shooting attacks, but better vs. assault. The Supersonic ability also allows for a greater late game contribution than the ghost arks, able to contest objectives or claim them if transporting troops.

Wraith wings can be supported by both warriors and immortals, night scythes or ghost arks, and it's really a question of which flavor WW you want to build.

If you want to rock warriors and Imotekh or Nemesor, or double phaerons, and play a shooting game using wraiths for counter assault and clean up, by all means, ghost arks are perfect in that regard.

If you want to get right up in your opponent's face and force hard decisions, or sneak around his flanks to whittle away from a defensive stance, go night scythes.

Personally, my night scythes end up being such low priority targets for my opponents, that I often still have them both (I currently play 2 night scythes and 2 barges) at the end of the game.

I've found my enemies prefer the following target priority:
1. Scarabs / Wraiths (depending on mechanized content)
3. Command Barges (Anrakyr is a fire magnet for mech armies)
4. Gauss Barges / Night Scythes (marines hate barges)
6. Immortals

Often I try to arrange it that my Barges cover my night scythes. While my night scythes dump their immortals into shooting range. It creates a wall of fire with a solid CC punch.

I worry that with my Gorilla style (rather than a more spread out Guerrilla style) Ghost arks won't be effective until a turn after the rest of my army is in position. Obviously, if I played a 10 Cryptek List, I'd want 2 ghost arks to house those lances, and I'd use wraiths far more defensively.

junk wrote:WhigWam, that is almost exactly the list i've been using for the last 7 games I've played. So far I've got 6 wins and 1 draw (C&C vs Orks). How's it treating you? I still haven't gotten to run it up against nids or draigowing yet, but I'm looking forward to it.

Well, I'm sure I haven't got in nearly as much testing as you. I only doubled up on Wraiths and added Night Scythes recently...originally I was more much Scarab/Spyder oriented (and also had Immortals footslogging, double Scythelords, lots of Lanceteks). So far I've only got in 3 test games with my Wraithwing (one double Lash CSM, one Berzerker-heavy CSM, one Plain Jane SM), but they have all been decisive victories. I'd like to test against more competitive lists, but I don't think my Necrons will be leaving the house until I have better Night Scythe proxies. So, just games at home (with friends) for now.

I did get a game in the other day though (vs. double Lash). FWIW, my thoughts from that game:

Night Fight and 36" shooting makes for a small but effective alpha strike. My Destructors were able to take out Daemon Princes and Rhinos before either were a threat (only one Prince got a Lash off--pulled my Eternals close, but not close enough to finish off the unit. The surviving Eternals put the last wound on the DP next turn). I'm tempted to try more Scythes and a second Pulse to maximize this, but the points go so fast...

Scarabs and Anrakyr can have a great (and early) impact on your opponent's model placement. Obviously they don't want to leave tanks within charge range of Scarabs (especially not sitting still), but Anrakyr's MitM means they also need to be mindful of where they leave their guns pointed. For instance, a savvy opponent probably won't want to leave their Demolisher with LOS to their own Terminators...or their Landraider looking at the rear of two transports (last game, it was a Defiler pointed at CSM/Plaguemarines). If you play Anrakyr with this in mind, you can force your opponent to make some really difficult decisions, e.g. "do I point the gun at X and leave my own unit in LOS?" This to me is Anrakyr's biggest appeal--not that the Warscythe, Tachyon Arrow, and Eternals boost are anything to sniff at. Really, Anrakyr has so much to his credit that it makes the limitations of the CCB-Scythelord stand in stark contrast. This is the main reason I moved away from a second CCB: while CCB-Anrakyr feels well worth his 245 points, the CCB-Scythelord feels incredibly overcosted...I kept thinking "I'm paying HOW MUCH for that Sweep Attack??" and soon the Destroyer Lord was welcomed with open arms.

The combined mobility of Night Scythes, Barges, Wraiths, and Scarabs make for a very fast list. Combine that with the Pulse/Destructor alpha strike, and Scarabs/Anrakyr screwing with your opponent's movement, and it seems like WW should be able to quickly establish board control in many match-ups. I think this is a big plus to the list as Wraiths and Scarabs both hugely benefit when you control the pace of the game--when you are the one deciding who assaults what.

deviant cadaver wrote:The thing I am having trouble fallowing is why every one has chosen night scythes over ghost arks with out much discussion. Instead of paying a warrior tax on the night scythes , why not use them in the open topped ghost arks.

I've never believed in taking anything as a "tax"...if people are taking 5x Warriors just for the Scythe, I think that's a mistake. Every unit should be functional or it is points wasted. In my list, I don't take Immortals just to get the Scythes---I want them to be able to contribute to the fight as well. I know there's only so much 5 Immortals and a Cryptek can do, but a disembark/rapid-fire from them could be enough to finish off a weakened unit or contest an objective for a turn or two. They might be left holding a backfield objective in some games (in which case, at least they're still shooting their Lance), but there should be plenty of occasions where they can be put to work fighting.

Now, I like Ghost Arks, but I don't think they have a very obvious place in WW. They can work if you build your list with them in mind as junk says (footslogging Warriors/Phaerons/Stalkers/other ponderous, shooty things), but at that point I think the Wraiths makes more sense moving into a support role. So instead of a list that supports Wraiths, it would be a list supported by Wraiths. The thing is, I think Wraiths offer a lot to a Ghost Ark (protecting the vehicle and its contents from assault) while a Ghost Ark doesn't offer much to Wraiths (short-ranged/low-power fire support, unable to reliably open transports). A Night Scythe, OTOH, does exactly what Wraiths need: opens transports and softens up potential targets for assault. And it has the speed/range to be everywhere fast-moving Wraiths need it to be. A Ghost Ark is much more limited in that respect.

whigwam wrote:The combined mobility of Night Scythes, Barges, Wraiths, and Scarabs make for a very fast list.

Agree, but from what I have seen, barges aren't fast...

This is my point on barges not being the unit to provide tesla fire in a WW list. In fact, I don't believe a WW list needs any heavies. As you say, those points go fast.

If EVERYTHING can go quickly, you get to play THAT wonderful game. This would greatly enchance the list IMO with the ability to take the 80% of my army vrs 50% of yours (an approximate) and the nightfighting to help facilitate this.

I hearby label this Fast Dark Overload or FDO from here on ;-)

cmac wrote:

whigwam wrote:The combined mobility of Night Scythes, Barges, Wraiths, and Scarabs make for a very fast list.

Agree, but from what I have seen, barges aren't fast...

This is my point on barges not being the unit to provide tesla fire in a WW list. In fact, I don't believe a WW list needs any heavies. As you say, those points go fast.

If EVERYTHING can go quickly, you get to play THAT wonderful game. This would greatly enchance the list IMO with the ability to take the 80% of my army vrs 50% of yours (an approximate) and the nightfighting to help facilitate this.

I hearby label this Fast Dark Overload or FDO from here on ;-)

Sorry, I should have been more specific! I meant the CCB--I know the Annihilation Barge is not fast (although that is a common misconception). Still, with 36" on its main gun, it doesn't need to be very fast! You might be right that WW doesn't need A. Barges though. If I find that my troops are insufficient in number, I would probably be willing to try 2-3 more Night Scythes instead (no idea what else I'll remove...)

I've been thinking about that a lot recently. When second wave drops, I'm going to shuffle my list to feature at least 3 night scythes, as opposed to the 2/2 scythe/barge split I have now.

I like the barges at the moment because they're expendible hard targets that wreck infantry and stun lock transports, (and because I have the models) providing a high priority target for your opponent, but you don't care if you lose.

At 1850 I play only 3 troops, 10 Tesla eternals, and 2x5 Gauss Immortals with Lance-teks; so I can only squeeze 3 scythes in. I like having the big block of 10 eternals, because they contribute to the offensive line and complement my aggressive play style with the WW.

Anrakyr on a CCB, though expensive as an HQ block (with 2 lance-teks and a DLord with Shackles) has proven himself so many times that I don't think I can drop him to a regular overlord to free up points for a 4th scythe/troop (and potentially 2 more lance-teks)

I absolutely love the effectiveness of the scythes in every regard; offensive, defensive, maneuvering, transporting, deep striking, claiming/contesting, fire support; for a 10 point premium over the VERY cost effective annihilation barges.

Ok so here come some results from my non WraithWing list vs Cmac's DE. This time he got the jump on me by not using a fully mechanized list. He was playtesting a mixed WWP list (and just as I had made room for a lot of S8 to deal with vehicles too).

I won't bore you with all the details but the basic rundown is:

- Cmac got first turn, I failed to steal and he came on Turn 1 with 3 Ravagers form the table edge while he dropped a WWP far forward in my Deployment zone from his Haemi in a raider (deployed centre of table). I came on with everything Turn 1 and disembarked from my Night Scythes with my Lance Crypteks as I wanted to drop his Ravagers (something I know from experience is that WWP DE do struggle with anti-tank) since they had Night Shields instead of the FlickerFields . Unfortunately this put me close to the WWP in return. If any of his Wyches or 19 strong Hellion (including the Baron) had come out on turn 2 I would have been in for a world of hurt...But they didn't. I got some results on the Ravagers and was able to then fall back. Turn 3 everything came on and Hellions with a unit of Wyches made up a nasty multicharge tagging 2 Night Scythes and 2 units of Immortals. Unfortunately for Cmac he rolled poorly vs the Immortals on 1 side and then his Wches proceeded to explode a Night Scythe. A 6" explosion later and I had won combat by 4. Wyches ran away (who had not actually lost a model) but the Hellions stayed locked (and were down to about 8 models by this point with the Baron losing his Shadowfield in the process). After this it was just a matter of applying some Tesla to his shooty units and charging in with infantry to make sure I finished off the Hellions.

I feel I got extremely lucky this game. Cmac pushed me to take a risk by giving me the chance to shoot his Ravagers, but by doing so I would expose myself. But then if I hadn't taken the bait they had pushed far enough forward that night fight wasn't going to be a consideration on Turn 2.

So the big question is: Would Wraiths have made a difference? Probably. I actually made a mistake early on by forgetting about my Scarabs who could have screened my Immortals so I had to deploy them out in the middle of nowhere. Wraiths would have done the same thing, but if I had Wraiths I wouldn't have had so many Lanceteks so maybe I wouldn't have pushed to the portal for shots on Ravagers. Game would certainly have been different.

Overall I'm actually happier having the extra shots in. The CC punch and extra threat the Wraiths bring is nice, but I feel you gain more by having some S8 and added mobility with Troops choices.

Those s8 shots are definitely nice to have; but nothing in the codex can take the amount of punishment that a wraith screen can resist at 250/squad.

I could have really used some extra s8 in my match today vs. IG. I ended up with a draw because I couldn't put the screws to enough of his mech.

I'll have to give it a shot and compare for myself, but in the meantime, keep it up and thanks for the input!

Lukus, I have a question. Didn't you have anything to babysit the WWP? I mean, if you sit a squad of warriors on top he can't deploy anything through it, and his reserves get insta-killed.

Or am I missing something?

BTW, my game against Reecius' guards is done and posted in the battle reports forum. You can find the link above in my previous post.

junk wrote:
Jy2! Obviously, we all hope to see you run roughshod over the Imperials with the wraithwing, but again, I want to ask about those 5x5 warriors squads? I mean, I get them as scoring units, but do you feel like they contribute anything to the actual game? I find myself dropping a 10 man immortal/eternal squad into the crossfire and coming out sparkling. I'd be nervous about getting those grots in the mix.

[edit] Sorry, 4x5 warriors, didn't realize you'd subbed in the night scythe, so +1 on that.

Yeah, they actually do. Although they don't contribute a whole lot to the offense, in an objectives-based game, they are actually a threat. How so, you may ask? Because they force my opponents to have to choose. Either deal with my offensive units and let my warriors take the objectives, or deal with my scoring warriors and let my offensive units wreak havoc to their army. The 5-man MSU warriors fit perfectly into my strategy of Maximum Threat Overload. Small enough that they should be ignored, but ignore them to your peril in objectives-based games. In annihilation, they hide and stay in reserves and it is not a huge loss in offensive capability. After all, they're only 260pts from my 2K army. The rest of the 1740pts of my army just cannot be ignored (well, except the spyders until they get close).

So far in almost all of the games that I've played (which I admit isn't too many), my opponents have not had the luxury of trying to take out my 4x5 warrior squads.

Surrounding a WWP doesn't destroy reserves, they can simply choose to come in from a table edge. And although surrounding it would have a been nice, most of his units were Jump Infantry. They could have just jumped right over me.

Got another draw with a WW vs. IG - the brief details:

I tried to come at the IG player up the long table edge into his chimera heavy right flank, but failed to stun enough vehicles in the early rounds to stop him from pulling them aside to give his tanks clear shots. He focused on all my tesla destructors in the early rounds. While my wraiths chewed through his troops, his tanks/psyker battle squads blew away mine. By turn 5 neither one of us had any scoring units left.

To try out a different necron build for comparison I built an Imotekh/warrior list, 2x6 scarabs 5 spyders, 1x6 wraiths, D.Lord with resorb and Praetorians, 35 warriors, arks, the whole deal. I was soundly defeated by salamanders. Imotekh kept night fighting up for 4 rounds, but there's no reason to have it going for 4 rounds. The lightning was cute, but not effective. The praetorians need an invulnerable save. It was a really sad last game for my New York visit. I wish I'd played the WW.

Anyway, my results with the Anrakyr led Wraith Wing for these last two and a half weeks have been phenomenal; IG and Orks are responsible for my only 2 draws with it, otherwise all wins.

I'm heading out on the road for about 6 weeks, and I did not, unfortunately, get to go up against Dark Eldar or Tyranids, so that will remain an X-Factor to me unless I can find a FLGS in my travels that will lend me some toy robots.

The handful of you who participated in this thread, I'd love to keep hearing your results with the WW. And come february, I'll hopefully be back in Cali with a fully painted list ready to jump into some tournaments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jy2 wrote:
BTW, my game against Reecius' guards is done and posted in the battle reports forum. You can find the link above in my previous post.

junk wrote:
Jy2! Obviously, we all hope to see you run roughshod over the Imperials with the wraithwing, but again, I want to ask about those 5x5 warriors squads? I mean, I get them as scoring units, but do you feel like they contribute anything to the actual game? I find myself dropping a 10 man immortal/eternal squad into the crossfire and coming out sparkling. I'd be nervous about getting those grots in the mix.

[edit] Sorry, 4x5 warriors, didn't realize you'd subbed in the night scythe, so +1 on that.

Yeah, they actually do. Although they don't contribute a whole lot to the offense, in an objectives-based game, they are actually a threat. How so, you may ask? Because they force my opponents to have to choose. Either deal with my offensive units and let my warriors take the objectives, or deal with my scoring warriors and let my offensive units wreak havoc to their army. The 5-man MSU warriors fit perfectly into my strategy of Maximum Threat Overload. Small enough that they should be ignored, but ignore them to your peril in objectives-based games. In annihilation, they hide and stay in reserves and it is not a huge loss in offensive capability. After all, they're only 260pts from my 2K army. The rest of the 1740pts of my army just cannot be ignored (well, except the spyders until they get close).

So far in almost all of the games that I've played (which I admit isn't too many), my opponents have not had the luxury of trying to take out my 4x5 warrior squads.

Awesome report, Hopefully when I'm back out in Cali I can take a trip up the coast to sink my wraiths into some of that bay area competition.
What's your take on the doom scythes now that you've used them a couple times?

junk wrote: Awesome report, Hopefully when I'm back out in Cali I can take a trip up the coast to sink my wraiths into some of that bay area competition.
What's your take on the doom scythes now that you've used them a couple times?

I really like them. They fit in my list like a glove and are a huge threat that my opponents just cannot ignore. 2 command barges, 2 wraiths, 2 doom scythes and 1 scarabs - all are equally dangerous to most armies and all are super-fast. I think they are going to be a permanent mainstay of my competitive necron army.

Bay area has some good competition. In NorCal (northern Calif), there's me, Reecius, Janthkin, SabrX and the crew from Zero Comp Posse, who are all great players.

Or if you go down south to SoCal, there are even more awesome players there.


BTW, here's a true test for my Wraithwing army against perhaps one of the toughest armies out there....Grey Knights!


The Grey Knight Challenge Part I - 2K MTO Necrons vs Draigowing!

I see the difference now between a WW army and a shooting army that uses wraiths as a counter assault unit.

In HQs the WW wants a destroyer lord to give a better CC punch to a units of wraiths , while a shooting want another overlord for the second night pulse.

In transports the NS and cargo are better for softening units and opening transports for the wraiths. A shooting list wants the GA to keep the opponent at 24".

An assault army is going to be a tougher match up for WW more so if they have some kind of mobility to stop the WW player from picking his fights DE come to mind. I could see the doom scythes helping here by really hurting a death star before it can do to much. Still not sure about them though.

Rhino rush or a long range army are probably good match ups for WW suppressing tanks and picking fights as the other army has to move at different speeds and getting in close fast are its strong points.

A shooting armies bad match up well be with GK or another army that us happy to shoot at 24".

The good match ups will be almost any thing that is not highly mobile.

deviant cadaver wrote:I see the difference now between a WW army and a shooting army that uses wraiths as a counter assault unit.

In HQs the WW wants a destroyer lord to give a better CC punch to a units of wraiths , while a shooting want another overlord for the second night pulse.

In transports the NS and cargo are better for softening units and opening transports for the wraiths. A shooting list wants the GA to keep the opponent at 24".

An assault army is going to be a tougher match up for WW more so if they have some kind of mobility to stop the WW player from picking his fights DE come to mind. I could see the doom scythes helping here by really hurting a death star before it can do to much. Still not sure about them though.

Rhino rush or a long range army are probably good match ups for WW suppressing tanks and picking fights as the other army has to move at different speeds and getting in close fast are its strong points.

A shooting armies bad match up well be with GK or another army that us happy to shoot at 24".

The good match ups will be almost any thing that is not highly mobile.

Good insight.

I'm excited by Jy2's use of Doom Scythes and multiple scoring units to force the opponent to play on his back.
I've had good results with the Tesla-spam of 4-5 tesla destructors, but it has trouble popping vehicles, instead tends to stunlock (which isn't terrible); however with the wraiths and scarabs taking up such a high target priority, I think Jy2 has the best of it with the doom scythes; as they'll either draw fire from the wraiths and scarabs, or they'll live to get more than one shot each off. I've said it before, if you can get more than one shot off with the doom scythe, it's worth its points.

Anyone have any thoughts on resurrecting the Scythe-wing idea from early in the thread, it was shot down pretty quick, but I've remained curious about how it would perform.

Scythe/Wraithwing hybrid at 2000
Imotekh (225)
4x5 Warriors in Night Scythes (660)
2x6 Wraiths w/ 3 coils, 2 Casters (500)
2 Doom Scythes (350)
10 Scarabs (150)
2 Spyders (115)

This is just a quick mock up to get the idea back up for discussion - Imotekh included for 4+ seize and Extended Night Fight.

I like the idea. Scythes and WW match well. I'm still not sold on Imotekh for anything but mass Scarab farming though. The 4+ Seize is nice, but you can make your own "first turn" by letting your opponent go first, dropping a Solar Pulse, and positioning for an alpha strike in the dark. Second turn might be pretty useful with multiple Supersonic vehicles anyway. His cost is also unattractive when compared to other HQs that can be "put to work." Destroyer Lord/CCB-Overlord/Anrakyr all add to WW's punch, but Imotekh has little to add other than his special rules (and a one-shot mini-deathray)...that alone makes me really resent dropping all those points on him. I know he's a "force multiplier", I just don't think he multiples enough (or consistently enough).

But enough about Imotekh. Reading Jy2's batreps has gotten me interested in the Doom Scythe as well...(thanks Jy2!) I'm still really skeptical about spending 175 points on a paper airplane with a laser beam, but seeing is believing. The DS is undoubtedly useful for giving an opponent target priority issues (and WW could really use the S10/AP1). I haven't used one yet, but I could see how well they would suit a more aggressive WW. I tried to fit a couple in my existing list and came up with this:

2000 pts.

Anrakyr + Barge (Gauss) [245]
Destroyer Lord (Warscythe, MSS, Weave) [160]
1 Cryptek (Lance, Pulse) [55]

10 Immortals (Tesla) [170]
5 Warriors + Night Scythe [165]
5 Warriors + Night Scythe [165]

6 Wraiths (3 Whip, 1 Particle) [245]
5 Wraiths (3 Whip, 1 Particle) [210]
9 Scarabs [135]

2 Spyder [100]
Doom Scythe [175]
Doom Scythe [175]

Not as many Night Scythes as your iteration, junk, but I think it offers more real and immediate threats. Anrakyr, Wraiths, Scarabs, and Doom Scythes will all be high priority targets: 6-7 fast units (depending on whether the D. Lord splits off) that force your opponent to respond. The leftover Scythes, Warriors, Immortals should be able to take/hold/contest objectives without drawing too much attention.

Hopefully I'll get to try this out sometime soon. Still need to get some better Scythe proxies, but don't want to spend a fortune making them (at the moment, I'm considering folding up a few origami crescent moons...yep...)