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Now this is THE thread I've been wanting to see some experienced players discuss.

A mixed equipment Wraith squad with a Destroyer lord has been the shining star in my test games. My difficulty has been getting enough effective shooting and synergy from the remainder of the army and the lack of mobility that I have been used to playing mechanized marines.

I've been thinking about how to get a Wraith squad working while still including big Z as I really love his utility. I'm more of a fan of the A list you have.

This is what I have come up for myself;

Zahndrekh
Des.Lord + scarabs
4x Lancetek + 1xPulse

1x5 warrior + Ark
1x5 teslaimmortal + NS
1x5 teslaimmortal + NS

1x vanilla stalker

1x5 Wraith, 2 coils, 2 pistol (wound allocation)
1x5 Wraith, 2 coils, 2 pistol

1x Annihilation Barge
1x Annihilation Barge

@1850

The idea being that the lancetek's ride the Ark with big Z, and attempt to force multiply via the stalker. They are the replacement for scarabs as an answer for taking on high AV at a very respectable range.

I haven't attempted to make a Wraith wing list previously, my old Necron's were a very generic list and as I only started playing in 5e I often put them back in the closet before long

I also think Z could assist with furious charging wraiths or tank hunting the cryptek squad, or if you really want to gamble hit and run wraiths so you can line up some serious low AP and high strength Tesla shooting. It's a little off the mark for what you guys have been discussing so far but keen to hear some thoughts.

I'd say your list is pretty in line with what we've been discussing, so lets throw it on the fire and see if it burns.

Our arbitrary decision that 10 Wraiths are the minimum means that pretty much whatever tactics we discuss apply to your list as well. The Stalker and the Royal court work well together.

I pretty much talked myself out of Zahndrekh for 2 reasons; 1. he has to many unnecessary letters in his name, and 2. He's spending points we're not using.

I think he's great, don't get me wrong, but how much would you miss him if he were replaced by a standard overlord? You're hiding him in an ark, which means his 2+/3++ or his rezorb may not come into play; so his main contribution is just his USR tweak, and potentially his phased reinforcements for our 2 scythes (probably not though).

Regardless, I think the HQ choice is always going to be subjective when we're dealing with these builds, because as long as there's plenty of tesla destructor fire, and lots of wraiths, it means we have to play aggressively from the start.

What was your last match up? How did it go?

Yes I do think using Zed as an HQ is a concession in my list. His abilities with USR's are good fun, while providing just enough tactical use for him not to be a large point sink concession at my usual game level of 1850 points.

My last match up with new Necrons was versus a full Tyranid deep strike list (I was scared!), it was table quarters with a single objective in each of our quarters. The list I used had destroyers, scarabs and a monolith instead of NS transports and the extra wraiths and barge. He was rocking out 4 MC's a few swarms of gene stealers, the doom of malantai and some gaunts, it was a 1750 game as he was practicing for a tournament.

I was seriously skeptical about the game as on turn 2 he managed to roll in all his army bar a single Trygon. Ymgarl genestealers popped up in terrain I was occupying, MC's all landed on target, same with the spore pod and doom of malantai, and all the flanking units bar one turned up close enough to move onto the board and reach assault which was my fault for deploying soo close to the table edge. So it was a horrible place to be in for a Necron army.

My warriors with Zed, 10 strong immortals, and destroyer squad actually stood up to a fair bit of punishment before they went down, both of us were generally impressed with RP overall. But the shining star was all the while he was stuck in combat whittling away my foot slogging troops, the Wraith squad and D.Lord were zipping from one combat to another, and they were getting results! Against MC's the mindshackle scarabs are extremely powerful, the squad were winning combat first turn against single MC's. Results were the same for squads of genestealers and gaunts with the wounds that slipped through able to be effectively allocated. It ended in a loss finishing on turn 6 as I had no scoring units remaining to claim my objective, but still had 4 of 5 wraiths and the d.lord that were one turn away from contesting his objective. We had gone 1 for 1 in terms of points worth of each others armies destroyed which I really couldn't believe considering how poorly it all started out.

I have been playing around with my list in the few weeks since, but was never happy with the results, it all looked too mish mash with clusters of units that synergized but not the army overall. My lists were heavily biased by the models I already had from building old codex lists. But I have always had a soft spot for Wraiths and the idea of the Wraith wing, I like the way the list looks fairly aggressive to play, and this seems to suit the 24" range weapons. Over all that is the first list I have looked at and actually been happy with. Very keen to proxy up a game and see how it fares against a tournament oriented vanilla marine list, as playing crazy deep striking Tyranids isn't exactly your everyday match up.

I only wrote that list after reading through this thread, tailored of course to suit the fact that I will include Zed, and do want some ranged high AV tools to compensate for the lack of a barge riding Anrakyr or cheap generic over lord. My curious point at the moment is if I wanted to free up some points to invest elsewhere, should I drop a barge or drop a NS transport and consolidate the immortals into a 10 man squad?

Whoah, nice recovery from a bad luck turn. DS Tyranids is a tough fight.

I like your list. I say run with it. When I first conceived my version of it, there were a pair of stalkers in there; for some reason I got it in my head that they needed to be run in pairs. YMMV.

I'll try to give a fair cost/benefit of your list.

You obviously want a ghost ark in there as a ferry for your Royal Court. I get that, it's a great transport for them. You're paying a 65 point warrior 'tax' to get it. I only point that out because it makes an expensive (royal court) unit even more expensive. BUT it's not entirely wasted points, because on turn 3 or 4 when those warriors finally come out of reserve, ideally they'll be such a low priority target for your opponent because of what you're doing on his side of the table, that they could actually grab an objective.

I definitely agree that sticking a rezorb with the royal court is a good idea, as those models are so pricey that the 30 point investment is worth it for the extra 17% chance of RP. So at least thats 30 points worth of nemesor that may not go to waste if the ghost ark crashes.

As far as the specific composition of your royal court; you want to swap out a lance for a harp, the reason why is that the Entropic strike HIT is resolved before the Damage Rolls. So against an AV14, you're actually increasing your chances of ruining the crap out of the vehicle by around 12% (according to my gorilla math).

But more importantly, if you ditch the ghost ark you could just footslog the court and the nemesor, because the court has long range and cant claim objectives, and instead play a 3rd nightscythe with 5 immortals, bringing your tesla destructor count to 5.

I'm just going to spitball this, I have no idea if it's a sound decision at this point, but I figure it's worth bringing up: As attractive as that ghost ark is, you could pull it and the warriors out of the list (freeing up 180) and turn it into a fully operational death star; with a veil of darkness, gaze of flame, seismic crucible, some scythe-lords with scarabs... Or hell, bring in the Vargard. No, that's probably not a good idea come to think of it.

The reason triarchs fell out of my list is I already had so much twin linked fire that It was really just a 150 point multimelta; but with the royal court, I don't know how to figure out it's potential impact. I'll say this, I like having as many AV13 targets as AV11 targets. That being said, the only unit that really benefits from the targeting feature is the royal court. So he's what, just a markerlight for them? And if he is successful with his Heat Ray attack, well then he's just a multimelta and his other ability doesn't come into play; and since everything else in your list is twin linked, so it doesn't make sense to shoot at infantry with it. I'm on the fence, Combined with a lance toting royal court he could wipe out a squad of paladins before they get a single psycannon shot off.

I think the triarch is really amazing warrior support though. In a warrior spam list, I'd definitely want at least 1.

Pistols on wraiths: As I've said a few times already, I LOVE them. 12" S6 on Jump infantry is like having hellfire rounds. Nearly everything is getting wounded on a 2. It gives the wraiths the ability to potentially pop transports in the shooting phase so they can assault the units inside, and for that reason I like really jamming them in there. Against a razorback, 5 pistol shots is slightly better than a 22% chance of wrecking it, roughly the same chance as killing 2 MEQs pre assault, almost as good as your chances of taking out a TEQ before you assault them. Not fantastic odds, but it's a personal preference, I like having more dice.

Annihilation barges, this goes pretty much without saying, insanely cost effective. I think I like the Gauss cannons as secondary weapons; just as likely to glance AV12, with the added bonus having an equal chance of glancing 13 & 14, and great for doubling down on Meqs.

In the end, regardless of any of this, I think your list works just fine. I like it, I think it's fun and it's got sharp teeth.

Mech Eldar would certainly be a challenge for the Wraith wing.
Serpents with scatter lasers or shuricannons can provide S6 spam able to take down scarabs quickly. Moreover, a Seer Council on foot (mounted in a Serpent) or on jetbikes will be able to stall a unit of Wraiths and then will eventually come on top.

wuestenfux wrote:Mech Eldar would certainly be a challenge for the Wraith wing.
Serpents with scatter lasers or shuricannons can provide S6 spam able to take down scarabs quickly. Moreover, a Seer Council on foot (mounted in a Serpent) or on jetbikes will be able to stall a unit of Wraiths and then will eventually come on top.

Are you sure about the Seer Council coming out on top? Do you have anything to support that?

Well, my Seer Council always comes on top, nah, at least almost always. A Council of 10 Warlocks on foot (mounted in a Serpent) with a Fortuneseer is a tough nut to crack, harder than a coconut. With embolden (usually taken more than once), the Farseer can reroll failed ld checks (morale and psychic tests). Indeed, I'd run a Council on foot vs Necrons as the will have a hard time taking down the Serpent before it unloads its cargo.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, my Seer Council always comes on top, nah, at least almost always. A Council of 10 Warlocks on foot (mounted in a Serpent) with a Fortuneseer is a tough nut to crack, harder than a coconut. With embolden (usually taken more than once), the Farseer can reroll failed ld checks (morale and psychic tests). Indeed, I'd run a Council on foot vs Necrons as the will have a hard time taking down the Serpent before it unloads its cargo.

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I was referring to the Seer council coming out on top against the Wraiths. I understand they are a hard nut to crack(I have a Seer council as well) But at first glance I don't really know if they would come out on top against 3 wraiths. It would be close either way.

Sasori wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:Well, my Seer Council always comes on top, nah, at least almost always. A Council of 10 Warlocks on foot (mounted in a Serpent) with a Fortuneseer is a tough nut to crack, harder than a coconut. With embolden (usually taken more than once), the Farseer can reroll failed ld checks (morale and psychic tests). Indeed, I'd run a Council on foot vs Necrons as the will have a hard time taking down the Serpent before it unloads its cargo.

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I was referring to the Seer council coming out on top against the Wraiths. I understand they are a hard nut to crack(I have a Seer council as well) But at first glance I don't really know if they would come out on top against 3 wraiths. It would be close either way.

Well, 3 Wraiths would not be a match-up vs. a full Council. If you take 6, then we are eventually talking.

wuestenfux wrote:

Sasori wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:Well, my Seer Council always comes on top, nah, at least almost always. A Council of 10 Warlocks on foot (mounted in a Serpent) with a Fortuneseer is a tough nut to crack, harder than a coconut. With embolden (usually taken more than once), the Farseer can reroll failed ld checks (morale and psychic tests). Indeed, I'd run a Council on foot vs Necrons as the will have a hard time taking down the Serpent before it unloads its cargo.

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I was referring to the Seer council coming out on top against the Wraiths. I understand they are a hard nut to crack(I have a Seer council as well) But at first glance I don't really know if they would come out on top against 3 wraiths. It would be close either way.

Well, 3 Wraiths would not be a match-up vs. a full Council. If you take 6, then we are eventually talking.

Well, 3 Wraiths wouldn't be a wraith wing either. It looks the minimum people would be taking per squad is 5.
Of course 3 Wraiths wouldn't be a match up though, 3 Wraiths is a fraction of the points of a full Seer Council.

Seer councils are vicious, fortune is a tough nut to crack.

For our purposes, lets assume worst case scenario: a 700 point seer council death star backed up by 1150 points of mechdar.

Farseer - 155 points
Eldar Jetbike,Witch Blade, Spirit Stones, Mind War, Fortune
Warlock Squad x10
Eldar Jetbike, Singing Spear x5, Destructor x8, Witch Blade x5, diverse powers

Every TL Tesla destructor will average 1/2 an unsaved wound against fortune.

A full squad of 10 Immortals shooting Tesla will do 1

It's tough to figure out the 6x Wraith vs. Seer council, but it doesn't look good for the wraiths unless conditions are optimal. They won't be able to whipcoil the entire squad, which means they'll be taking some hits up front.

If the Seer council gets the drop on them, assaulting the wraiths, running enhance, minimizing contact with whip coils- I'm not doing all the math to factor in pre-assault shooting, but it looks like 3-4 unsaved wounds against the wraiths, then they take about 1-2 unsaved wounds from the wraiths, then deal another 1 unsaved wound at initiative 1.

If the wraiths get the drop, and can whip coil more than half the enemy squad, they take 1 up front, then deal almost 2 vs. fortune, then take another 1-2.

It looks like the best thing to do is use the wraiths to tie them up for a few rounds and focus on the rest of the army.

junk wrote:But more importantly, if you ditch the ghost ark you could just footslog the court and the nemesor, because the court has long range and cant claim objectives, and instead play a 3rd nightscythe with 5 immortals, bringing your tesla destructor count to 5.

In the end, regardless of any of this, I think your list works just fine. I like it, I think it's fun and it's got sharp teeth.

Yeah I feel like I have found the primordial soup of my Necron list, it will take time and tweaking to reach it's potential, but I do think Wraith wing is a viable competitive list. At it's core we are bringing solid shooting and reliable combat units to the table.

After sleeping on it, I have to agree with ditching the Ark and warriors, to be replaced by another 5 man immortal squad with NS, redundancy in the mobile troop area is useful regardless, but the additional firepower makes it an easy choice. Foot slogging the royal court would rely on Zahndrekh, he would need to use his S5 2+/3++ to soak up incoming fire, this makes more use of his in-built equipment cost, and gives him the option of using terrain and providing Stealth to the squad if you think they will be a high priority for enemy shooting which is likely.

This then also brings me to question the inclusion of the Stalker for force multiplying the Cryptek squad and adding AV. Crazy Zed can force multiply them already with tank hunter, and the free points give room for a Transmogtek with Harp, this still has high AV tools, and also adds synergy to the Destructor spam if you can reduce high AV values with it. It is not a cheap unit at 225, but when I think of what else to use for the same tools at that range there aren't many options.

This then leaves a spare 100 points to spend (my first list the Cryptek's were over costed by 15 points) this can be spent on an extra wraith in each squad, a third annihilation barge, or a 6 strong swarm of scarabs. I'm not sure if the Scarabs would sit low enough on the threat scale to reach priority vehicles and reduce the AV to enable the Destructor and Lance spam to finish vehicles off, but it is a possibility that I think may be worth testing.

This is my new A list;

Zahndrekh
Des.Lord+scarabs

1x TransmogTek+Harp (Almost maxed out wound allocation)
1x DestrucTek+pulse
1x DestrucTek+Gaze
2x DestrucTek

1x5 Tesla-Immortal in NS
1x5 Tesla-Immortal in NS
1x5 Tesla-Immortal in NS

1x6 Wraith+3 coils 2 pistols (Three wound allocation groups)
1x6 Wraith+3 coils 2 pistols

1x Annihilation Barge (Likely both with Gauss Cannon's, or one of each)
1x Annihilation Barge
@1850

I like it. Very well rounded, I would make that switch though for at least 1 more coil with those wraiths.

Forgot to add it up there, but I also found that the Stalker without power weapon attacks was easily stuck in a tar pit combat situation even against units that were half his cost, thinking about this also facilitated me dropping him.

The major issue of course is where are the Wraith and Night Scythe models, any rumours on a wave 2 at this stage?

Unfortunately, the 2nd wave trend is 6 months from codex release. Converting a barge to a night scythe seems like a tournament legal solution; i've seen a few different versions that look good. For wraiths, check out what Reecius did over at frontlinegaming.

Wraith:
http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2011/11/30/40k-modeling-cheap-and-fast-necron-wraith-and-scarab-conversions-tutorial/

Night Scythe:
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=18472

When it comes to Wraiths, I really wish I could have a look at the new models before committing to the idea I have currently. I would like to convert the metal Wraiths to have a Deathmark head, and then convert one of the hands to have a whip or a integrated pistol if required. I have 6 metal Wraiths already, so obtaining another 4 to 6 is certainly do-able, but it really depends on the prices I can obtain them for.

My other job is to convert 5 Praetorian's to look like a pack of staff wielding Cryptek's, this I don't think will be all that hard. As for my HQ or Overlords, I will steal them off the barges when making Annihilation Barges.

As for the Night Scythe, do you think people would accept wave serpents as proxy models? The conversion you linked looks passable, but to spend the money on a barge and butcher it up, then to have what will likely be a very nice looking model turn up a few months later doesn't sound like a good investment at the moment.

I'm not sure how Tournaments rule proxies. I'm always looking for inexpensive alternatives to ruining a barge... I've picked up some extra tesla destructors on ebay for $5/each.

I'm pretty sure if you're bringing the list to a tourney, they're going to want to see some effort in your conversion, unfortunately. It may be better to scratchbuild one and try to get away with grabbing odd necron bits on ebay.

In the mean time, what is the best compromise we can come up with for a Scythe-free WW?

Do we go back to warriors, or footslog immortals?

My current thought on the new wraith wing... Keep in mind this is based on what i've tested so far and is based on my personal preference for the codex. I never really ran wraith wing in the old dex so this is half a shot in the dark (played the wraiths as a tack-on to my more successful list the last few games and they did well).

Anyway, here's what I came up with (note that this is at 2k... for 1850 drop the deathmarks and gaze of flame, and add a wraith to each squad).

HQ:
Immotekh
Zandrekh

Elite:
6x Deathmarks
6x Deathmarks

Fast Attack
5x Wraiths w/ coils
5x Wraiths w/ coils

Troops
10x immortals w/ guass blasters, 2x harbingers of destruction (one with gaze of flame) (HQs goes here)
10x immortals w/ tesla, 2x harbingers of destruction
10x immortals w/ tesla, 2x harbingers of destruction

Heavy Support
Annihilation Barge w/ Gauss Cannon
Annihilation Barge w/ Gauss Cannon


The basic idea of the list is that the wraiths do what wraiths do (scare the crap out of my enemy), the 2 10man immortal squads move to secure points or provide mid-range suppressive fire. The gauss unit moves in behind the wraiths cleaning up anything that falls back or rapid firing down bigger infantry units before the wraiths assault. The deathmarks are there to deal with dedicated CC enemies or things that the wraiths just can't handle (big bads with S8 weapons etc)

This is all based on my past experiences of course (I've had 6man deathmark units eat MCs worth twice their point cost in previous games), and with immotekh in the list it's easy enough to gain the 12in needed to abuse their guns. Zandrekh's presence in the list allows not only for making a wraith unit all sorts of dangerous, but is also a defensive mechanism for the ranged (providing counter attack and denying furious charge to a potential assault on an immortal squad for example).

The above is untested (hoping to do that this weekend), so it's very much subject to change. Specifically, potentially dropping Imotekh for a DLord and the deathmarks for something else if they fail to continue to perform (likely more wraiths). Also, not entirely sure on the wargear options on the wraiths. They are all set to whip coils for now since I've been fighting boat loads of CC orientated lists (nids, orks, csm), and I'm just not conviced the pistol is worth the loss of 2-3 more of their models attacking at I1. Though I suppose the wound allocation is a valid counter-argument to that. Has anyone done the math yet to figure out just how much more durable having 2 allocation groups makes them?

WanderingFox wrote: Though I suppose the wound allocation is a valid counter-argument to that. Has anyone done the math yet to figure out just how much more durable having 2 allocation groups makes them?

If possible you could create 3 allocation groups with Wraith wargear, coils, pistols , and standard. I'm terrible at getting solid math in writing to show the difference between the two. But it should be a noticeable boost to their resilience over the course of a game. My issue with running max coils is you need to ensure they are all utilized often to get the points cost back. Generally three 40mm bases should be able to B2B a decent amount of the enemy squad with some finesse, of course huge squads like Nids and Orks would leave you wanting more coils, but in a take all comers list I think it's too many points invested in equipment that could almost become another Wraith squad.

My vote is on dropping Imotek for a destroyer lord, with some mindshackles you have a squad of wraiths that can actually go head to head with elite combat units if it is really required, or ensure a crushing blow against vehicles, you would have to drop a LanceTek though, and pay for a solar pulse to assist you slogging it out while still at a distance from your enemy.

junk wrote:
In the mean time, what is the best compromise we can come up with for a Scythe-free WW?

I guess the non Night scythe alternative for our lists is large groups of tesla immortals foot slogging it? It sounds restrictive and I think it would really slow down the army over all meaning the fire support for the Wraiths isn't in place like it is with 3 fast skimmers. This would end up being fairly similar to WanderingFox's list, I'm not sure if I am personally happy with large amounts of foot slogging restrictions for a Wraith Wing if you intend to play offensively.

More or less what my thoughts were Sectiplave. Going to test it out and see how it does and then swap to something like that if I find it lacking.

That said, I highly doubt I will ever take all 3 wargear choices in a squad of wraiths (the beamers are heavy ;_; ) ... and not taking any wargear on them doesn't feel right when the other two options are both good. That said maybe 3/2 coils/pistols units...

Fox, If you do drop Imotekh, you could invest in two abyssal staff crypteks to go along with those deathmarks. An 8-1 Template weapon that wounds on a 2+ is pretty amazing. It also provides the option of throwing a veil of darkness in there, which would work towards compensating for at least some of the limited mobility of foot slogging troops.

As Necronyr40k has pointed out, Imotekh's extended nightfighting doesn't really line up too well with the 24" range of those tesla immortals; but stick 1-2 Solar Pulses in there to defend yourself.

However, Immotekh works amazingly well with warriors (as we've seen in Reecius's battle reports).

Aware, I found it not worth the points... The unit is squishy enough as is and tossing 60 pts of cryptek into a unit that will likely never make use of the veil of darkness more than once is kind of silly.

Note that the cryptek does not have the deep strike special rule, therefore the entire unit may not deep strike, and thus the only effective way to get them into range is to veil them. In order to change this we need an explicit FAQ entry that states that the cryptek gains all the special rules of the unit it joins (sadly the wolf guard do not provide enough precedent to allow for a convincing argument without an explicit FAQ entry).

The immortals are defensive in the list with immotekh. Wraiths clean house on things that try to advance into shooting range, and as they push forward the immortals follow behind to hold points and shoot up anything that's left over. Obviously immotekh's power limits them to a degree, but on average it only reduces their range by 3in (average night fighting result is 21in).

That said, it is a limitation of the list and it does, at least to some degree, rely on the lightning strikes from immotekh to make up for any lost shooting.

In the end it will boil down to how well it works out in play testing.

WanderingFox wrote:and not taking any wargear on them doesn't feel right when the other two options are both good. That said maybe 3/2 coils/pistols units...

Yes if you have the points to spare the pistols are great for 5 points, I was thinking more for a full squad of Wraiths 3/2/1 Coils/Pistols/Nothing, that still gives 3 wound allocation groups, I would need some math person to tell me if saving 5 points is really worth having an extra allocation group as I'm not entirely sure if the extra defense is worth it provided you have the points for the pistols.

I still think the footslogging variant will do just fine, a 10 pack of immortals isn't easy to take down without throwing over powering combat units at them. It will just be harder to recover from poor deployment, or to react to a faster moving army.

I take your side of the arguement WanderingFox when it comes to adding Cryptek's to jump infantry or Deathmarks, they do NOT have the deep strike rule, so I don't think this was an intended combo. Alternative delivery methods indeed become dangerously expensive without much protection.

I doubt that Crypteks and Court Lords will get FAQ'ed to gain the USR's that the troops they join get. There is no doubt that it would seriously improve Deathmarks and Praetorians, but it won't happen.

On the matter of Wraith load out, going 4 whips and 2 pistols makes sense to me.
That way you can get 4 separate groups for wound allocation
1 w/both
3 w/just whips
1 w/just pistol
1 w/nothing

I think that adding 1 more pistol to the group would be a great addition, but it is a low priority (point-wise).

You cannot take both.

Phrasing of codex reads "any model may take one of the following"

Anpu-adom wrote:I doubt that Crypteks and Court Lords will get FAQ'ed to gain the USR's that the troops they join get. There is no doubt that it would seriously improve Deathmarks and Praetorians, but it won't happen.

Yes I second this, I don't think they had any intention of being able to join these types of units or I believe there would have been a Lord/Cryptek 'jetpack/jumppack' upgrade option thrown in there.

And Fox is right, Wraiths can only have 1 of any weapon upgrade. The pistols are actually decent for the cost, a pair will almost certainly inflict a wound pre-assault on T4 so they aren't to be written off.

Oh wow, didn't catch that; In which case, 3/2 for 3 wound groups or just 3/3 or 4/2; I don't really ever see a reason to arm them with beamers.

Still don't see you ever needing more than three whips. with 2 you can get most of an assult unit at I1, and whats left won't be in base to base with much anyway. When i finally get some wraiths, im planning on running 2/2/2. that way the wound allocation groups are even.

Sectiplave wrote:

WanderingFox wrote: Though I suppose the wound allocation is a valid counter-argument to that. Has anyone done the math yet to figure out just how much more durable having 2 allocation groups makes them?

If possible you could create 3 allocation groups with Wraith wargear, coils, pistols , and standard. I'm terrible at getting solid math in writing to show the difference between the two. But it should be a noticeable boost to their resilience over the course of a game. My issue with running max coils is you need to ensure they are all utilized often to get the points cost back. Generally three 40mm bases should be able to B2B a decent amount of the enemy squad with some finesse, of course huge squads like Nids and Orks would leave you wanting more coils, but in a take all comers list I think it's too many points invested in equipment that could almost become another Wraith squad.

My vote is on dropping Imotek for a destroyer lord, with some mindshackles you have a squad of wraiths that can actually go head to head with elite combat units if it is really required, or ensure a crushing blow against vehicles, you would have to drop a LanceTek though, and pay for a solar pulse to assist you slogging it out while still at a distance from your enemy.

junk wrote:
In the mean time, what is the best compromise we can come up with for a Scythe-free WW?

I guess the non Night scythe alternative for our lists is large groups of tesla immortals foot slogging it? It sounds restrictive and I think it would really slow down the army over all meaning the fire support for the Wraiths isn't in place like it is with 3 fast skimmers. This would end up being fairly similar to WanderingFox's list, I'm not sure if I am personally happy with large amounts of foot slogging restrictions for a Wraith Wing if you intend to play offensively.

been following this thread for a while and factoring the sage like advice into my list building.... While not optimal, I've had some success with this non NS based list.

Overlord w/ res orb - warscythe - gauntlet of fire
Dlord - shackles

Hod with pulse in immortal group 1 with lord
Hod with immortal group 2
Hod with immortal group 3
Hot with crucible with immortal group 3

2x stalkers

2 x 5 man wraith squads
- 4 x whip coils
- 2 x pistols

7 x scarabs

2 x annihilation barges

The whole army would have to stick together to take advantage of the stalker twin linking and provide saturation but general plan being to roll up the center with the scarabs and wraiths leading and the rest cleaning up. Not too sure about the stalkers or the scarabs.......

shadzinator wrote:Still don't see you ever needing more than three whips. with 2 you can get most of an assult unit at I1, and whats left won't be in base to base with much anyway. When i finally get some wraiths, im planning on running 2/2/2. that way the wound allocation groups are even.

Sure if you're fighting 10 man or smaller units... 30 boys are not all going to go at I1... Nor is a pack of genestealers... or a nob squad... etc.


Anyway, plaeyed a 1500pt variant of the list against nids just now and it worked reasonably well. Ended up losing due to poor timing of an assult ending (allowed him an extra 6 inch consolidate to contest an objective), but other than that I'm reasonably satisfied with their performance. Some tweaks definitely, but it's a solid strategy.