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Brother Coa you obviously dont grasp the Tau society structure or insist on being obtuse.

Fire caste : govern all thing military, all generals and such come from this caste.
Air caste : govern all things airborne or space, all admirals and aerospace engineers come from that.
Water caste : govern all things merchantile and diplomatic, planetary governors and ambasadors come from this caste.
Earth caste : govern colonial affairs, and technology , Industrial managers and materials/technology engineers come from that.

And the Ethereals are the glue that makes all of it work together, no fire caste becomes a water caste, no earth becomes a air, no ethereal becomes anything else, each find fufillment within its own career and life field, its the nature of their society and race.

It the main principle of the Greater Good each being contributing in its own way to furthur its aims, its basically like a MOS in the military, its a highly structured and inclusive society, and its not a human society.
Tau become leaders within their own castes, amoungst their own peers, even ethereals have rank within their caste.

and BTW Coa i did not write what you quoted your little additions should be elsewhere.

besides I cant remeber the last space marine that became a lord of terra....

Medium of death wrote:
I'm not sure why the same conversation about the Tau always happens in the exact same way.

Purposefully Misinterpreting the fluff. Fan Hate. False Information. Thread Lock

We've had the first three...

yup and likely bans as well...such is the fate of all Tau threads once some people get it on their radar.

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:yup and likely bans as well...such is the fate of all Tau threads once some people get it on their radar.

It would help if people didn't, for example, refer to each other as 'obtuse' just because they happen to disagree on a point of fluff for a game of toy soldiers...

Soo'Vah'Cha: Yeah it's really disappointing what happens to Tau threads on Dakka, and I've never, ever seen it anywhere else. I'm down with W**d hate and so on, and love the IoM as much as the next man and woman... but Tau hate?! Just don't get it... and I'm usually pretty good at understanding stuff - have you got any theories on this, to help me out? Perhaps start a new thread on this? I'll leave it to you - I'm sure you know best.

And yup to your point about developing the different Septs - plenty of fans (40k TT and BFG) already all over that.

That's the main thing I find attractive about the Tau as a faction; they have an evolving tale being told, which can take us into lots of interesting territory - hope GW does it right... but in the likely event that it won't, the fans will.

I know folks roll their eyes but I also like their rights of passage vibe; naive and idealistic child changing, hardening and going darker when confronted by the actual realities of the universe - how much of what they were (as described in the original designer's notes) will remain at the end? So I'm interested in their gradual darkening. Here we'd be getting into Koestler's 'ends justifying the means?' dystopian trilogy.

Fralethepalewhale: Don't worry about folks finding you crazy for your 'Brave New World' comparison; it's been discussed here and there already, with a lot of folks having the same take as yours.

The Great Crusade had ugly, underlying elements of 'We', then IoM went '1984'. Question is: is this because those methods really are the least-worst option for assuring humanity's survival in the post-HH universe (literally optimistic; 'best possible world'); or is the Emperor the god of oppression and using those methods purely for their own sake (as is the case in '1984'... minus the god bit of course)?

Tau are 'Brave New World' (though don't use superficial triviality to drown out quality and substance - they still promote excellence rather than safe mediocrity). It's inevitable that you'll get into cultural moral relativism in any debate like this, but the 'Gasp! Eugenics! Evil!' thing has an interesting parallel with our real world, since it's only post-Nazis that it's become a knee-jerk dirty word that = the foulest evil.

Though 'liberals' try to keep it quiet, a huge segment of the 'liberal' intelligentsia was actually pro-eugenics, pre the Nazi horrors coming to light a while later. This is reflected in 'Brave New World', since Huxley was actually quite ambivalent about the issue when he wrote it - it wasn't written as a 100% dystopia (unlike 'We' or '1984') - and it's only real world events and changes in world-view that retroactively classified it as one. I personally don't think it is: most of the people therein are perfectly happy and the elite running tings is genuinely benign. It's a (particularly pre-WWII) 'liberal' elitist's wet dream (the masses being the benignly treated 'bewildered herd'). Hardly the 'priests of power' with their 'boot on a human face forever' of a proper dystopian novel.

Point is wind the clock back: The Ethereals are little blue Huxleys altruistically embarking upon a programme of population control for Utilitarian purposes (assuming that they actually are - you picks your source), and their WWII hasn't come yet (but will).

[I hope I don't seem like I'm taking this way too seriously but I'm writing a tale, and value depth and substance (and verisimiltude) so I'm trying to get right into the nuts and guts of the different factions; Tau are very prominent in my Book I.]

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:Brother Coa you obviously dont grasp the Tau society structure or insist on being obtuse.
Fire caste : govern all thing military, all generals and such come from this caste.
Air caste : govern all things airborne or space, all admirals and aerospace engineers come from that.
Water caste : govern all things merchantile and diplomatic, planetary governors and ambasadors come from this caste.
Earth caste : govern colonial affairs, and technology , Industrial managers and materials/technology engineers come from that.

And the Ethereals are the glue that makes all of it work together, no fire caste becomes a water caste, no earth becomes a air, no ethereal becomes anything else, each find fufillment within its own career and life field, its the nature of their society and race.

It the main principle of the Greater Good each being contributing in its own way to furthur its aims, its basically like a MOS in the military, its a highly structured and inclusive society, and its not a human society.
Tau become leaders within their own castes, amoungst their own peers, even ethereals have rank within their caste.

and BTW Coa i did not write what you quoted your little additions should be elsewhere.

Thank you for insulting me for not sharing the same impression on Tau society. I mealy said that in Imperium every peasant with a string of luck can become a planetary Governor, Space Marine Chapter Master, Imperial Guard General, Lord Inquisitor... Tau on the other hand cannot, one born in that caste stay in that caste until they die. And while some lucky FW can became commander he is still restricted with power because of the Etherials. Just because I have different view on a things I am a Tau hater? Nice defense but it's getting old.

besides I cant remeber the last space marine that became a lord of terra....

Roboute Guiliman was High Lord, Hurion was not a High lord but he had entire sector under his command.


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The point is with this OP that as time past Tau are getting more and more Grimdark.
They changed drastically from 3'rd edition to this date, evolving from a peaceful Empire that care about other races into conquering Empire with rumors about certain thing that it's using to control it's citizens.
I would be not surprised if they go drastically Grimdark in 6'th edition....

I do not understand why people love to talk about the Tau. All you do if repeat your arguments that have been written in the last 100 Tau threads.

Because people wouldn't listen and read?

Anyway, my theory on why Tau is such a debate is simply because their situation. They are a minor race with little over 100 planet, and people are representing them as a force that can beat entire Imperium of Mankind back to Terra and conquer Terra all together. Other thing is their very nature - they are not Grimdark enough. In a war torn galaxy where everyone is looking for themselves, and nobody is giving a damn for others, Tau appear and act like UN and ask for galactic peace under their rule.

When you combine all this you stop to wonder why Tau have smallest fan base in 40k.

Brother Coa wrote:In a war torn galaxy where everyone is looking for themselves, and nobody is giving a damn for others, Tau appear and act like UN and ask for galactic peace under their rule.

Why yes, the Tau do want to conquer the galaxy. Yes, the Ethereals do want to rule over everyone else.

Sure, it's not genocide, but so what? It's not exactly nice.

Brother Coa wrote:Because people wouldn't listen and read?

Anyway, my theory on why Tau is such a debate is simply because their situation. They are a minor race with little over 100 planet, and people are representing them as a force that can beat entire Imperium of Mankind back to Terra and conquer Terra all together. Other thing is their very nature - they are not Grimdark enough. In a war torn galaxy where everyone is looking for themselves, and nobody is giving a damn for others, Tau appear and act like UN and ask for galactic peace under their rule.

When you combine all this you stop to wonder why Tau have smallest fan base in 40k.

Is that so? Do the Tau have the smallest fanbase? You sure can offer some proof for you claim, do you?
Few if any people claim that the Tau can ( yet ) beat the entire Imperium, that's merely a strawman you just love to use.
You opinion that they are not grimdark enough, well, that's your opinion, no more and no less. Noone forces you to play them and others like them because they are different. I personaly hate the new Necrons and Grey Knights fluff ( in fact so much that i sold my small GK army ) with a passion but i do not see the need to spam every single Grey Knights threat with partialy made up nonsense about how the Necrons / Grey Knights are the antichrist of wargaming.

Brother Coa wrote:I think that modern Asians would disagree with you. But you are right about North Korea, China and Vietnam at least...there are no individuals there only leaders.

Okay, so you have no clue about East Asian culture. That's the reason why you don't understand the concept of the Tau race.
Can't find a good internet article on collectivist cultures ATM, but here are two I found:
http://www.via-web.de/individualism-versus-collectivism/
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2009-10-27-Depression_culture_N.htm

tsz52 wrote:Soo'Vah'Cha: Yeah it's really disappointing what happens to Tau threads on Dakka, and I've never, ever seen it anywhere else.

Sadly, Tau threads on Warseer are exactly the same.

You know too much of a tau thread is complaining about tau threads. Though I never had any problems in my tau threads.

Its not the damn Tau debates that lock threads here. Its the personal stabs people make at each other. Its a game, chill out.

Its an entire universe based on hate and war, it doesn't surprise me at all to see people wanting a race to be whipped out. Seeing as how their fluff reflects the same opinion.

In the Warhammer 40k universe, there is only War, especially when it comes to Tau threads.
I rather liked tsz52's insightful comments and background on the theory and correlations between the Tau and real earth political thought in literature.
Their WWII is coming and it will be a gloriously rude evolution of things.

Connor MacLeod wrote:Many of the actions of the tau can be seen as 'evil' by certain standards, but that doesn't mean the tau themselves deem it as such

By that definition, sacrificing a thousand children to Khorne by bleeding them dry and stacking their skulls in to a pyramid isn't evil because it's not seen as such by the servants of Chaos.

Kroothawk wrote:If an army fights an enemy, and choses to not make a member of the enemy fraction their leader and reveal all military secrets to him, just because he said he is now on your side a year ago, then that is not racism but minimal security requirement.

So you're saying we Americans should never let any Americans of German descent run for president? Or Japanese? Or British? Or Middle-Eastern (specifically Iraq and Afghanistan)? Or French (French and Indian War), or Mexican? Prevent them from holding any office of authority, or raising to any officer rank in the armed forces?

Because that kind of restriction would, under your definition, be a minimum security requirement.

It would also be racist.

Just like the Tau are.

It'd be just as racist if Germany had a law that stated no person of Jewish descent can hold office in the Bundesrepublik Deutschland.

And hell, the Tau haven't gone to war with the Kroot but you still don't see any Kroot in the Ethereal (ruling) caste, they just aren't allowed there.

Face it, the Tau are very xenophobic.

Kroothawk wrote:
Okay, so you have no clue about East Asian culture. That's the reason why you don't understand the concept of the Tau race.
Can't find a good internet article on collectivist cultures ATM, but here are two I found:
http://www.via-web.de/individualism-versus-collectivism/
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2009-10-27-Depression_culture_N.htm

Before you make false and utmost incorrect statements like that I can tell you that I understand Asians perfectly since I wanted to study history so I know that much.
Tau are society that have Japanese fell to them, Indian Caste system and Socialistic ideals of a "Grater Good" and equality of all other races.
But thank you for link, they were written by Americans and are incorrect as usual. But thanks for trying anyway.


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KingDeath wrote:
Is that so? Do the Tau have the smallest fanbase? You sure can offer some proof for you claim, do you?

In fact yes I do. Just see the threads in the last year, in "What's you favorite army" Tau usually score low, and in "what army you hate the most" they were right after Grey Knights and Space Wolves. Here only few poepel play Tau, most play Marines and Guard, that speak for itself.


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KingDeath wrote:
You opinion that they are not grimdark enough, well, that's your opinion, no more and no less. Noone forces you to play them and others like them because they are different. I personaly hate the new Necrons and Grey Knights fluff ( in fact so much that i sold my small GK army ) with a passion but i do not see the need to spam every single Grey Knights threat with partialy made up nonsense about how the Necrons / Grey Knights are the antichrist of wargaming.

That's you, i also have problem with new Grey Knights and Necrons and agrees to it when he thread is about that, it is only natural to debate on things you don't agree.
I personally have nothing against Tau, but like you said ( some ) people are giving them to much credit and think of them as "only pure race" in the galaxy. And can't accept that they are as bad in some things as Humans or Orks for example.

Warrior Squirrel wrote:I do not understand why people love to talk about the Tau. All you do if repeat your arguments that have been written in the last 100 Tau threads.

That's hardly unique to the Tau.

This is after all a discussion board with millions of posts about a toy soldier game aimed at 12 year olds in England. There's bound to be some repetition on any subject.

And if you're tired of reading about the Tau, there's an easy answer, read on of the other million threads here.

Or turn off the computer and go outside. That works too.

ANYWAY... scary mod voice

Yeah some people don't like the Tau or find them dull or whatever. That ain't no excuse for derailing a thread on them. If you don't like Tau, go read another thread.

Melissia wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:If an army fights an enemy, and choses to not make a member of the enemy fraction their leader and reveal all military secrets to him, just because he said he is now on your side a year ago, then that is not racism but minimal security requirement.

So you're saying we Americans should never let any Americans of German descent run for president? Or Japanese? Or British? Or Middle-Eastern (specifically Iraq and Afghanistan)? Or French (French and Indian War), or Mexican? Prevent them from holding any office of authority, or raising to any officer rank in the armed forces?

Because that kind of restriction would, under your definition, be a minimum security requirement.

It would also be racist.

Just like the Tau are.

It'd be just as racist if Germany had a law that stated no person of Jewish descent can hold office in the Bundesrepublik Deutschland.

And hell, the Tau haven't gone to war with the Kroot but you still don't see any Kroot in the Ethereal (ruling) caste, they just aren't allowed there.

Face it, the Tau are very xenophobic.

That's not xenophobic. You can call it xenoist (what is the word for discriminating based on species?), but it has more to do with the caste system.

Tadashi wrote:

nurgl wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:I wouldn't trust you anyway

BTW no Xeno joins Tau society, at best he joins the tau Empire. That is an important differenciation.

Now I'm no Tau expert, but didn't they try to make friends with the Necrons before they were shot in the face with gauss fire?

That they did. The only ones they won't welcome into the Greater Good are Orks and Tyranids. When I played Dark Crusade as CSM, they even offered me (as Eliphas the Inheritor) a chance to join the Greater Good. Imagine that, offering a Dark Apostle a chance to become an atheist. Not gonna happen.

They're so naive it's funny.

So they are a bunch of naive Mobile Suite Gundam nerds!

Melissia wrote:So you're saying we Americans should never let any Americans of German descent run for president? Or Japanese? Or British? Or Middle-Eastern (specifically Iraq and Afghanistan)? Or French (French and Indian War), or Mexican

I think, I haven't said that. Right, just checked what I said. So it seems you made it up.
And maybe you haven't heard, but the US-constitution allows only "natural born citizens of the USA" to run for presidency or vice-presidency.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural-born-citizen_clause_of_the_U.S._Constitution

But I wouldn't recommend to make an Al Kaida terrorist the director of the CIA an hour after he said: "Okay, I am on your side now, believe me, it's true!"

Oh, and are ants racist just because they wouldn't allow Queen Elisabeth II. to rule an ant hill? Kroot and Tau are different species after all. And Kroot just don't belong to the subspecies of Ethereals even if they try hard

nomotog wrote:That's not xenophobic. You can call it xenoist (what is the word for discriminating based on species?), but it has more to do with the caste system.

If it's racist/xenoist/xenophobic, then it doesn't matter if it's a caste system or not.

Kroothawk wrote:And maybe you haven't heard, but the US-constitution allows only "natural born citizens of the USA" to run for presidency or vice-presidency.

Yes, but unlike the Tau empire, the descendants of those who share ethnicities with enemies in previous wars can in fact get elected to the leadership position.

There are humans who were born under Tau rule. They still can't enter the Ethereal caste or get any real command position. Because they're humans, and therefor in the Tau mind, inferior, like all non-Tau.

That the caste system itself is racist does not mean that the cast system itself is not racist.

Melissia wrote:There are humans who were born under Tau rule. They still can't enter the Ethereal caste or get any real command position.

Sometimes you have to accept that changing your species is very difficult

Kroothawk wrote:
Sometimes you have to accept that changing your species is very difficult

It's a racist (and thence specist, if that actually is a word) style of government. The Ethereals are above the rest of the Tau. The rest of the Tau generally seem to be above the other members of the Tau Empire. I've never heard of non-Tau commanding Tau, only the other way round (and man do the Kroot seem to take the most losses).

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:
Sometimes you have to accept that changing your species is very difficult

It's a racist (and thence specist, if that actually is a word) style of government. The Ethereals are above the rest of the Tau. The rest of the Tau generally seem to be above the other members of the Tau Empire. I've never heard of non-Tau commanding Tau, only the other way round (and man do the Kroot seem to take the most losses).

It's called TAU Empire for a reason. and just like in any Empire of Royal Kingdom if you are not born into the ruling family or caste you cannot rule unless you overthrow the figure-heads. It's not racists just the way kingdoms/empires have been ruled. You probably haven't heard of Anghkor Prok then? He was a Kroot Shaper the lead Shas into battle.

DoctorZombie wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

nurgl wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:I wouldn't trust you anyway

BTW no Xeno joins Tau society, at best he joins the tau Empire. That is an important differenciation.

Now I'm no Tau expert, but didn't they try to make friends with the Necrons before they were shot in the face with gauss fire?

That they did. The only ones they won't welcome into the Greater Good are Orks and Tyranids. When I played Dark Crusade as CSM, they even offered me (as Eliphas the Inheritor) a chance to join the Greater Good. Imagine that, offering a Dark Apostle a chance to become an atheist. Not gonna happen.

They're so naive it's funny.

So they are a bunch of naive Mobile Suite Gundam nerds!

The aesthetic is much more similar to the Macross Valkyries.

To all Tau fans who believe you surpass us already and will one day replace us: feel free to invade. You might even double the size of your empire in less than a decade. But by then, you'd be overstretched, with your limited warp drives unable to reinforce quickly enough. Once Terra hears of your arrogance, the whole Ultima Segmentum will be mobilized against you. I'm sure you'll make the Guard and the Navy pay the butcher's bill, but once the Astartes and the Titan Legions arrive, we'll make you pay for everything with compound interest.

"We are the Imperium of Man. Prepare to die."

Tau are not evil by comparison. Instead of "Greetings, prepare to die," they say "Greetings, join us or die,"

Rather simple, but gets the point across.

moom241 wrote:Tau are not evil by comparison. Instead of "Greetings, prepare to die," they say "Greetings, join us or die,"

Rather simple, but gets the point across.

I'd sooner die.

Tadashi: But that's the point innit?: The threat the Tau poses to the IoM isn't really one of martial force but one of ideology and (material) comfort.

The Western 'democracies' didn't smash tanks through the Berlin Wall going Eastwards - just militarily held that line and made sure that the good folks to the East could see them driving about in BMWs, basking in their luxurious and free consumerist paradise... just made sure that its media also carried that relentless message over the Wall.

The odd opportunistic expeditionary adventure aside, that's Tau's best chance of winning: though obviously if His Divine Majesty's forces manage to get a few years where they're not spread too thin fighting higher priority targets before the Tau gain sufficient ideological critical mass amongst His subjects, then it's all over for the Tau.

But we have to assume that the latter will never happen, since the Tau are still popular enough for them to not be Squat-ed by GW.

So this is interesting since the Tau will have to grimdark (harden) themselves up a tad (and reduce material comfort levels in favour of war materiel spending) as their great good fortune in timing, circumstances and geography starts to wear out; but their only possible method of ultimate victory is to be visibly not too grimdark and still highly opulent (thus attractive to His oppressed subjects).

It'd all be a bit more interesting, with a tonne of intrigue and manipulation on both sides, than 'Tau get stupid, invade somewhere that the IoM simply can't afford to lose, IoM exterminates Tau'. There's that tension that the Tau can only possibly prevail in a long, long, patient game where they must constantly be seen as a low threat priority, but also mustn't be found too fragile when the clock eventually turns against them (which could be at any time).

Depends on who's doing the writing though, obviously.... If it's that guy who's as subtle as a crate of anvils then it'll be SC in XV∞+ Suit WTFPWNS! everything!!! and everybody will hate them, including the stalwart (then ex-) fans.

* * *

Brother Coa: Cheers for your theory. I hope that you don't find anything that I wrote above too objectionable (I'm trying to be realistic). Couple of genuine questions for your good self:-

1 Do you find the unique set of circumstances (timing and geography) set up by the studio writers implausible, in the way that it shielded the Tau to allow them to be less grimdark at the time?;

1a Do you have any time for the theory that other forces (eg Eldar) might have had a hand in this, for their own ineffable purposes?;

2 Isn't it likely that the poor SoB have a smaller fan base than the Tau (based upon an awful lot of circumstancial evidence)?

* * *

Generally: If a buzz-word must be used then 'speciesist' is the correct one. Used in a pretty similar way to how a vegan might use it. Always better to not use buzz-words though, when discussing things as complicated as world-views and Star-Empires' political systems. Too much important meaning is lost in the gross rounding down.

Not another "are tau grimdark" thread, oh god no.

The fact remains, they are by far the least grimdark faction in 40k. The IoM treats anything not noble like trash and works humans to death in mines like it ain't no thang and generally tries to be huge dicks to all it's citizens.

The Eldar murder entire population because of vague futures in which they may or may not cause a single eldar to die.

I hope I don't need to touch on the others.

Melissia wrote:

Connor MacLeod wrote:Many of the actions of the tau can be seen as 'evil' by certain standards, but that doesn't mean the tau themselves deem it as such

By that definition, sacrificing a thousand children to Khorne by bleeding them dry and stacking their skulls in to a pyramid isn't evil because it's not seen as such by the servants of Chaos.

Well, I suppose he could be right, because Good and Evil are in the eye of the beholder- perhaps sacrificing 1000 children to Khorne is seen as a noble and compassionate action by followers of Chaos. It's evil because we think it is.

Kroothawk wrote:

Melissia wrote:There are humans who were born under Tau rule. They still can't enter the Ethereal caste or get any real command position.

Sometimes you have to accept that changing your species is very difficult

So basically you admit that the Tau are racist bastards.

"Oh, I'm sorry you were born black, but them's the breaks. Just try to enjoy your life as a slave."
Replace "black" with "non-Tau" and there you go.