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There you go then. Sentry wakes up. Sneezes and goes back to sleep. Invasion averted.

Deadshot wrote:There you go then. Sentry wakes up. Sneezes and goes back to sleep. Invasion averted.

At the beginning of the thread I stated that all heavy-hitters would have the same power level as a primarch. Also, as powerful as the guy can be, he's still flying rodent gak crazy and afraid of his own power. Go read World War Hulk.

Belexar wrote:

At the beginning of the thread I stated that all heavy-hitters would have the same power level as a primarch. .

At that point you are not using Vanilla MU at all. The primarchs are mid power rang at very , very best( and no all of em at that). They have zero hope of standing toe to toe with the weakest of MU's Heavies.

Iron man flys a nuke into a single ship and everyone passes out... Oh wait that really happened.

eh that was movie MU not 616 MU. still it ends more or less the same way, with less damage to earth but more or less the same way.

Lets not forget Silver Surfer.

He would wreck a few ships before they even made it into the Galaxy.

Flies out, causes some Hull Breaches, Ship compromised, GG IoM loses.

The problem with eliminating Marvel's heavy-hitters, is who's left? The Fantastic Four and Jubilee?

I mean, you're talking about a universe that has multiple people who are nigh invincible. Multiple characters that are an army in of themselves. Characters that can kill people with a thought, project energy beams greater than the sum of all of the IoM's naval ships, regenerate faster than you can hurt them, or completely restructure reality as they see fit.

Shrike325 wrote:The problem with eliminating Marvel's heavy-hitters, is who's left? The Fantastic Four and Jubilee?

I mean, you're talking about a universe that has multiple people who are nigh invincible. Multiple characters that are an army in of themselves. Characters that can kill people with a thought, project energy beams greater than the sum of all of the IoM's naval ships, regenerate faster than you can hurt them, or completely restructure reality as they see fit.

Are you implying Mr. Fantastic isn't a heavy hitter? Dude's got more tech than Mars! He even designed a giant robot meant to EAT GALACTUS. Let's see a Titan do that!

Also, for the sake of practicality, let's say adamantium is the same metal in both universes.

By MU standards , No Mr. Fantastic is not a heavy hitter. He is not even mid range in power.

Also, guys, I'm seeing a lot of people trying to pull Galactus and the Beyonder into this. They don't count. Only earthlings or beings that would normally ally themselves with earthlings (asgardians, Silver Surfer, etc).

Squirrel Girl, however, does count.

Oh, and as Stephen Strange can tell you, Hulk is still vulnerable to mind-probing when distracted. It's still dangerous stuff, though.

And Tony has succesfully used his orbital weapons to neutralize Hulk in World War Hulk.

And Molecule Man is dead.

aside from the hitting power of both sides, i think tatics and strategy comes in as the deciding x factor. MU characters are constantly scheming and counter scheming, and have to adapt to situations on the fly. they also have a ton of exp fighting armies and police forces.

IOM... not so much. they generally just engage wars, and rely on numbers of bodies and firepower to see the day won. against other armies they tend to do ok, but aginst a highly adaptable foe, they tend to get their butts kicked. its why eldar, dark eldar, tau, all who feature great stratigists and the ability to adapt to situational changes, if not new weapons etc, the IOM tends to loose. only when they can bait the other guys (or catch them) in the meat grinder do they tend to win. (wich they usally do by a ton at that point)

so not even factoring in all those uber powerful super characters, MU heros and villians all use and employ various tactics and constantly adapt and learn. IOM not so much. - edge MU.

Belexar wrote:Also, for the sake of practicality, let's say adamantium is the same metal in both universes.

It can't be.

In 40k, adamantium covered terminators die to vindicators. A Demolisher Cannon designed to level buildings. Let's give it the benefit of the doubt and say it has the same destructive power as a GBU-24.

In the Marvel universe, adamantium eats thermonuclear weaponry.

I know I sound like a broken record but I still cannot fathom how anyone does anything ever in the Marvel world. If Magneto can apparently throw around things in the solar sytem why hasn't he just catapulted entire cities into orbit? How could he possibly lose to the X Men? Or how is it that Prof X hasn't just "lol mind-wiped" everyone into good guys or something? And that's just a couple of X-Men.

How is there ever an alien invasion plot in the Marevl universe if apparently they can be willed out of existence, have a god fly through their ship, teleport their insides outside of their bodies, have their fleet hurled into a sun, etc. If it is so easy to stop something that large then what passes for a threat in the Marvel universe? Is it just gods beating each other up and sometimes Spiderman? How does anything happen in a Marvel comic without you going "why didn't he just do that and end it all right now?" at every panel since everyone is so seemingly powerful.

If it all comes down to plot armour and the like, well that seems pretty lazy and boring.

asimo77 wrote:I know I sound like a broken record but I still cannot fathom how anyone does anything ever in the Marvel world. If Magneto can apparently throw around things in the solar sytem why hasn't he just catapulted entire cities into orbit? How could he possibly lose to the X Men? Or how is it that Prof X hasn't just "lol mind-wiped" everyone into good guys or something? And that's just a couple of X-Men.

How is there ever an alien invasion plot in the Marevl universe if apparently they can be willed out of existence, have a god fly through their ship, teleport their insides outside of their bodies, have their fleet hurled into a sun, etc. If it is so easy to stop something that large then what passes for a threat in the Marvel universe? Is it just gods beating each other up and sometimes Spiderman? How does anything happen in a Marvel comic without you going "why didn't he just do that and end it all right now?" at every panel since everyone is so seemingly powerful.

Same reason the Chaos gods didn't intervene and just lolsmite the Emperor, or Gork and Mork don't unite all the tribes and wipe out the galaxy. It's called plot. Thor doesn't show up in the X-men comics to save them all from an alien invasion because the comic is called X-men, not Thor and Those Other Guys.

I mean, if you're gonna ask about stupid-out-of-whack stories, do I need to mention Calgar vs. Avatar?

Hunterindarkness wrote:The Marvel universe is one of the few that could not only hold its own vs 40k, but completely decimate it. professor x alone could mindwrip the whole planet, at will. The Hulk has been brought but..You. Can. Not.Stop.The.Hulk. If you are really lucky you can slow him, Good Ol Magneto can pull the earth off its axis at will, good luck bringing a fleet. Franklin Richards..just, Game over man, game over.And as for the Nids? Well already been there, done that. The brood did not do so hot, nor did any other Nid like beastly the MU has introduced over the years.

One other note. I would pay good money, No joke to see Deadpool run though a space Marine Chapter, wise creaking all the way.

His swords and pistols would not even come close to hurting them. Then their librarians would inhibit his teleportation and saw him apart with bolters.

culsandar wrote:

Belexar wrote:Also, for the sake of practicality, let's say adamantium is the same metal in both universes.

It can't be.

In 40k, adamantium covered terminators die to vindicators. A Demolisher Cannon designed to level buildings. Let's give it the benefit of the doubt and say it has the same destructive power as a GBU-24.

In the Marvel universe, adamantium eats thermonuclear weaponry.

Agreed. It now seems the Op[ is changing his parameters to the IoM vs a much, much weaker non- vanilla MU.

Kaldor wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:And know you know that Eisenhorn was incorrect.

I'm sorry, do you believe you have a better understanding of the capabilities of an Alpha level psyker than Dan Abnett?

Please, I'd love to see you back that one up.

Ohoho, not paying attention to the discussion again, Kaldor? As I've already said, Eisenhorn's definition (A BL novel) is different from that of the GW rulebook. The GW rulebook takes precedence here.

Ohoho, citation still needed.

Ohoho, page 125. Last edition rulebook.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:

You're assuming he would know how the Void Shields worked in the first place. How would he have that knowledge?

The OP said earth knew the IoM was on its way. Someone like the Prof, Mags, Forge, cable or any number of other people could see how they work with a glance or a simple fleet wide mind read. There are a gakload of people In MU that could understand how they work in a dozen or so way at but a glance. And even if they did not a single blast or so would pop them anyhow.

I don't know how you think Cable is going to get his hands on Imperial Tech when it's flying around in orbit. And even if Proffessor Xavier could mind sweep the shielded fleet (and not go crazy upon viewing the horrors of the warp) how is he going to get the information to Magneto?

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Well the answer is fairly straightforward then. Instead of just making him take a hit or two, make him take three. Or four. Or a dozen. If his 'impenetrable' shield really is penetrable, then it's only a matter of when, not if, a lance barrage will finish him.

EDIT: Also, with the "I find it funny that there are levels of impenetrable" that was more a jab at the definition, not yourself.

Knowing what I do of lances, I would say that is not gonna happen. He has been hit with harder and more powerful stuff. Besides you would get 1 shot and would not make it to orbit anyhow.

I think you're misunderstanding. You said he survived his entire island being nuked. Lance batteries generally level continents. And why would the ship get only 1 shot? It's a whole battery of lances, not a single lance.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

How would a C'tan phase sword not work?

How would Magneto be able to detect the Callidus Assassin?

One> How does the IoM have a C'tan sword? But then its a metal blade, does not matter if it is magical or what have you. You will never get it though a shield made of magnetism. You can't slice what you can't get near or when he rips it apart or out of your hands.

Two. They are human and dealing with a creature that can feel metal and has limited mental/mind control power. Why do you think assassin's have not worked before?

1) The Callidus Assasin's of the Officio Assasinorum are equipped with them. If you read the link the sword can cut through literally anything, including energy barriers so Magneto's shield is out. It is encased in metal (of an unknown type) so Magneto would be able control it. But he would have to be able to see it coming first.

2) There are a assassins and then there Officio Assasinorum operatives. We're talking a whole different level of competence here. Unless Magneto had some means of detecting the polymorphine drug, which he clearly doesn't.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

So why didn't Magneto take on these fleets himself?

He was not the star of the comic.Realistically he could have, but then it was not his book or his story arc. I mean why do not Sm take on every plot of every BL book ever? That is a pretty silly question man, I mean damned silly.

asimo77 wrote:I know I sound like a broken record but I still cannot fathom how anyone does anything ever in the Marvel world. If Magneto can apparently throw around things in the solar sytem why hasn't he just catapulted entire cities into orbit? How could he possibly lose to the X Men? Or how is it that Prof X hasn't just "lol mind-wiped" everyone into good guys or something? And that's just a couple of X-Men.

How is there ever an alien invasion plot in the Marevl universe if apparently they can be willed out of existence, have a god fly through their ship, teleport their insides outside of their bodies, have their fleet hurled into a sun, etc. If it is so easy to stop something that large then what passes for a threat in the Marvel universe? Is it just gods beating each other up and sometimes Spiderman? How does anything happen in a Marvel comic without you going "why didn't he just do that and end it all right now?" at every panel since everyone is so seemingly powerful.

Mostly because of power inflation on errybody. And because they won't all work with each other normally. The OP states that they all work together, so we end up with crazy combinations. Prof. X doesn't mindwipe people because he has some stupid thing called "Morals." . But mostly because of power inflation. Marvel wants to make this guy more awesome, so he makes them do something redonklyous, like 'ole Magneto and astroid X. And, of course, if you want people to look cool, they just make them beat the Hulk. New villians show up and do awesome stuff in order to look impressive, but heros have to win, so they do, and their power is increased due to the now-cannon cool stuff they pulled off. Like, if some comic shows some villian whose skin is entirely invunerable, and then spidy gets around that by filling his insides with web-shooters until he sustains internal injuries, then it becomes cannon that he can do that when ever, even though it only happened once, leading to people saying things like "Yeah, well, spidey can beat the Thing, because the second the Thing yells "It's clobberin' time!" Spidey would shoot his webs down his throat and rip him up from the inside."

And that's why i stick to Ultimate MU and the lower levels of regular Marvel. Punisher and Dare Devil FTW!

1) The Callidus Assasin's of the Officio Assasinorum are equipped with them. If you read the link the sword can cut through literally anything, including energy barriers so Magneto's shield is out. It is encased in metal (of an unknown type) so Magneto would be able control it. But he would have to be able to see it coming first.

Not all metal is magnetic.

Also, to settle the matter of alpha+ psykers:

Alpha-Plus

In the rarest of all cases, the twenty-four point scale of the Assignment does not adequately characterize a being of indescribable ability. Such individuals, for all intents and purposes, pass beyond the scale entirely. These subjects are known as Alpha-Plus psykers.

Uncontained, Alpha-Plus psykers represent an immediate and catastrophic threat to the Imperium. In theory, there is nothing that a trained Alpha-Plus psyker cannot accomplish through force of will; from snapping a Titan in half to summoning a legion of Greater Daemons. Representing such a great danger, the Inquisition usually executes Alpha-Plus psykers on sight unless the possibility for capture is nearly assured.

loota boy wrote:
Mostly because of power inflation on errybody. And because they won't all work with each other normally. The OP states that they all work together, so we end up with crazy combinations.

They will work together to a certain extent. So we can't really expect Thor to be carrying Apocalypse from ship to ship. At best we can expect that they won't be actively killing each other.

Prof. X doesn't mindwipe people because he has some stupid thing called "Morals." .

So he wouldn't be able to bring himself to end/otherwise-alter the millions of human lives in the Imperial Fleet?


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Je suis2 au hazard wrote:

1) The Callidus Assasin's of the Officio Assasinorum are equipped with them. If you read the link the sword can cut through literally anything, including energy barriers so Magneto's shield is out. It is encased in metal (of an unknown type) so Magneto would be able control it. But he would have to be able to see it coming first.

Not all metal is magnetic.

Good point, I'd hardly expect that the C'tan are magnetic.

Also, to settle the matter of alpha+ psykers:

Alpha-Plus

In the rarest of all cases, the twenty-four point scale of the Assignment does not adequately characterize a being of indescribable ability. Such individuals, for all intents and purposes, pass beyond the scale entirely. These subjects are known as Alpha-Plus psykers.

Uncontained, Alpha-Plus psykers represent an immediate and catastrophic threat to the Imperium. In theory, there is nothing that a trained Alpha-Plus psyker cannot accomplish through force of will; from snapping a Titan in half to summoning a legion of Greater Daemons. Representing such a great danger, the Inquisition usually executes Alpha-Plus psykers on sight unless the possibility for capture is nearly assured.

I have one that suggests Alpha psykers are only slightly less powerful.

Alpha-Level Psykers
...Those cursed with an incredible level of psychic talent are codified by the Black Ships of the Inquisition as Alpha-level - the highest category a human psyker can reach. Alpha-level psykers can turn a man inside out with a glance. A mere flick of a wrist can snap a Battle Titan in two, or a muttered syllable can turn an army upon itself in a frenzy of bloodlust. With such godlike power at their disposal, it is small wonder that Alpha-level psykers are amongst the most dreaded of foes that the Ordo Hereticus of the Inquisition must face.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

loota boy wrote:
Mostly because of power inflation on errybody. And because they won't all work with each other normally. The OP states that they all work together, so we end up with crazy combinations.

They will work together to a certain extent. So we can't really expect Thor to be carrying Apocalypse from ship to ship. At best we can expect that they won't be actively killing each other.

Prof. X doesn't mindwipe people because he has some stupid thing called "Morals." .

So he wouldn't be able to bring himself to end/otherwise-alter the millions of human lives in the Imperial Fleet?

While I personally believe that Marvel would win this fight, and i know that my answer will only hurt that goal, I cannot tell a lie. Yes, Professer X would be vehemenatly AGAINST popping the heads of millions of minds of the fleets. He may pause them, or attempt to control them briefly, but Professor X is generally against killing in near any situation. He would not mind-crush the fleet, or manipulate its commanders to detonate their warp drives, or force the gunners to fire upon other ships. He is generally in favor of non-lethal force. He would, however, mind-PAUSE the whole fleet without hesitation, but would most likely need the help of cerebro for a feat so large. I also do believe he would mind-crush certain space marine chapters. Most likely not the more emphatic ones, like space wolves and salamanders, but probably would splatter the heads of chapters that hate non-marines in any form. I believe the Silver Skulls is one of them?

EDIT: spelling.
EDIT2: spelling the same word..

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Ohoho, citation still needed.

Ohoho, page 125. Last edition rulebook.

No no, I mean the citation that 30 of those Alpha psykers were not released and recaptured within a week. The citation that proves that those Alpha psykers could not have actually been Alpha psykers.

Hazardous Harry wrote:Lance batteries generally level continents.

sigh

Citation needed.

A greater daemon of Tzeentch would kill hulk in a single blow. Once hulk is hit (hulk dont really dodge) his soul will be renderd from his body and no amount of regeneration power allows you to regenerate your soul.
Or just for the fun of it "gift of chaos".

Kinda sure that the IoM have something that rends the soul from the body, so all this talk about the Hulk doing the job by himself only last until someone figure this out.
Or just capture him and trow him into the sun, once his feet is of the ground he's kinda screwed.
Not to say that he will wreck a lot of havoc before that.

salix_fatuus wrote:A greater daemon of Tzeentch would kill hulk in a single blow. Once hulk is hit (hulk dont really dodge) his soul will be renderd from his body and no amount of regeneration power allows you to regenerate your soul.
Or just for the fun of it "gift of chaos".

Kinda sure that the IoM have something that rends the soul from the body, so all this talk about the Hulk doing the job by himself only last until someone figure this out.
Or just capture him and trow him into the sun, once his feet is of the ground he's kinda screwed.
Not to say that he will wreck a lot of havoc before that.

That's all well and good, of course, but when was the last time that a standard imperial invasion force enlisted the help of Greater Daemons of Tzeentch? If they do, then, well, the GK will be here soon to solve THAT problem....

asimo77 wrote:I don't know much about comic books but from what it sounds like Marvel must be the most boring universe ever. How is anything ever even a threat to the heroes? What are the stakes with the Hulk who is apparently untouchable? Why have any conflict at all when there's dozens of reality bending gods? I think at some point you get so OTT it gets boring. After reading the posts here I can't imagine feeling any sense of danger or tension in a Marvel story.

I agree with you a 100%.


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loota boy wrote:

salix_fatuus wrote:A greater daemon of Tzeentch would kill hulk in a single blow. Once hulk is hit (hulk dont really dodge) his soul will be renderd from his body and no amount of regeneration power allows you to regenerate your soul.
Or just for the fun of it "gift of chaos".

Kinda sure that the IoM have something that rends the soul from the body, so all this talk about the Hulk doing the job by himself only last until someone figure this out.
Or just capture him and trow him into the sun, once his feet is of the ground he's kinda screwed.
Not to say that he will wreck a lot of havoc before that.

That's all well and good, of course, but when was the last time that a standard imperial invasion force enlisted the help of Greater Daemons of Tzeentch? If they do, then, well, the GK will be here soon to solve THAT problem....

What I thought it was standard "take over a planet" issue to enlist Greater Daemons of Tzeentch
Joking aside of course I don't mean that a Greater Daemons of Tzeentch would help the IoM, I just mentioned it as an example that 40k have a lot of stuff that kills even monsters like the Hulk with ease. Should have pointed that out in first post sry

And I would think with the intense battle that eventually would ravage earth and all the psykers going at each other that eventually Daemons might breakthrough and join the fight.

salix_fatuus wrote:Joking aside of course I don't mean that a Greater Daemons of Tzeentch would help the IoM, I just mentioned it as an example that 40k have a lot of stuff that kills even monsters like the Hulk with ease. Should have pointed that out in first post sry

Good to know you're paying attention and following the instructions.

Hunterindarkness wrote:Oh carnage..yeah that be a good one. He would love picking apart SM, they would have little change with him. He might toy with em though. People also forget how powerful spider man really is. as he is inhumanly fast, can feel the attack coming and can left about 10 or so tons.

Carnage dangerous as he is would not be much of a threat in the long run. Flamers would be applied the moment he is noticed and his ridiculous vulnerability to high levels of sounds would render him writhing in pain the moment anything explodes or a tank fires near him, and if he is stupid to attack a tank and the thing goes boom then there goes carnage with it (if he was in 40k he would have "vulnerable to blasts" *5).

Hazardous Harry wrote:
I don't know how you think Cable is going to get his hands on Imperial Tech when it's flying around in orbit. And even if Proffessor Xavier could mind sweep the shielded fleet (and not go crazy upon viewing the horrors of the warp) how is he going to get the information to Magneto?

You are just trying to neat pick by this point. How does anyone get anyone any info at any given time? MU high tech stuff makes the IoM tech look downright archaic. Mags himself is such a genius with an understanding of technology out stripping that used by the Iom that he could most likely just figure it out himself.

You are not getting that the MU simply outclasses the IoM in about every way you can outclass something.

Hazardous Harry wrote:


I think you're misunderstanding. You said he survived his entire island being nuked. Lance batteries generally level continents. And why would the ship get only 1 shot? It's a whole battery of lances, not a single lance.

And you are ignoring the fact the fleet never gets close to earth, not even slightly, if lucky they might see mars. MU knows they are coming, there is not any scenario in which tat fleet is not hit as soon as it lands in real space.

Hazardous Harry wrote:


1) The Callidus Assasin's of the Officio Assasinorum are equipped with them. If you read the link the sword can cut through literally anything, including energy barriers so Magneto's shield is out. It is encased in metal (of an unknown type) so Magneto would be able control it. But he would have to be able to see it coming first.

2) There are a assassins and then there Officio Assasinorum operatives. We're talking a whole different level of competence here. Unless Magneto had some means of detecting the polymorphine drug, which he clearly doesn't.

What type of metal it is has nothing to do with it, he has hurled folks across rooms by the iron in there blood alone. You are really and truly underestimating your target. And yes as Mags can craft meta humans he has ways of detecting such. He understands more about the meta gene then about anyone alive. You are willfully ignoring his capabilities.

Hazardous Harry wrote:
Again, how is he going to teleport through the shields?

Because. He.Can. He is the mastery of powers and technologies nothing in 40k can handle and that is just the fact of the matter. No one knows how he does it, no one can really stop him if he really wants to. His mind is so post human no one knows why he does some things or can conceive how he does them.



I think I am done trading shots with you. Every post I have to repeat the same stuff, stuff you can easily go look up and every time you ignore it as if ignoring it changes it. Marvels 616 earth operates at a level far outreaching 40.The settings just do not work in the same levels. I know thois is a 40k site and all, but facts are facts and truth is truth.


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salix_fatuus wrote:

Carnage dangerous as he is would not be much of a threat in the long run. Flamers would be applied the moment he is noticed and his ridiculous vulnerability to high levels of sounds would render him writhing in pain the moment anything explodes or a tank fires near him, and if he is stupid to attack a tank and the thing goes boom then there goes carnage with it (if he was in 40k he would have "vulnerable to blasts" *5).

I agree in the long run someone might get him. But then he does not do stand up fights. He is a monster, a beast a murder and psychopath. They would get him in numbers, but how many would they loose to one man? His is Pairmach level of power or better.

culsandar wrote:

asimo77 wrote:I know I sound like a broken record but I still cannot fathom how anyone does anything ever in the Marvel world. If Magneto can apparently throw around things in the solar sytem why hasn't he just catapulted entire cities into orbit? How could he possibly lose to the X Men? Or how is it that Prof X hasn't just "lol mind-wiped" everyone into good guys or something? And that's just a couple of X-Men.

How is there ever an alien invasion plot in the Marevl universe if apparently they can be willed out of existence, have a god fly through their ship, teleport their insides outside of their bodies, have their fleet hurled into a sun, etc. If it is so easy to stop something that large then what passes for a threat in the Marvel universe? Is it just gods beating each other up and sometimes Spiderman? How does anything happen in a Marvel comic without you going "why didn't he just do that and end it all right now?" at every panel since everyone is so seemingly powerful.

Same reason the Chaos gods didn't intervene and just lolsmite the Emperor, or Gork and Mork don't unite all the tribes and wipe out the galaxy. It's called plot. Thor doesn't show up in the X-men comics to save them all from an alien invasion because the comic is called X-men, not Thor and Those Other Guys.

I mean, if you're gonna ask about stupid-out-of-whack stories, do I need to mention Calgar vs. Avatar?

Well if I wanted to know about 40k I would have asked about 40k. As far as Chaos goes there's the whole can't materialize in the real world and stuff like that. 40k surprisingly seems to have more rules so to speak. But I think most other posters have answered my questions and I think I can leave this thread satisfied. I think I'm just one of those guys that comics just don't work with.

asimo77 wrote:. I think I'm just one of those guys that comics just don't work with.

All in the setting man, Marvel or DC may not be for you. But if ya do not mind preacher level of gore and sex..read " The Boy's" by dynamite publishing. I have a sinking feeling you would love it as it pokes fun and turns "beloved" comic icons into well people with inhuman power. The series only has one or two issues left But I simply can not recommend it enough. Also if ya can find them the "Authority" by image comics, not the new stuff that has been mismashed with the current Dc time line.