Puscifer wrote:
I don't know if anyone knows this or not - but are the howdah and goblins removable as in can I just have the spider and annoying WHFB bits on it???

If so, I have just found a base model for a Tyrannofex and Tervigon.

Mewiththeface wrote:@fullheadofhair
You don't want a hardbound book with plenty of pictures, apparently good rules, and new content and fluff for a fair price of 37$, what do you want?
A cheaper price isn't a good answer.

Polonius wrote:It's an interesting gambit, and it might work. As a hobby we've swallowed every price increase thus far.

NAVARRO wrote:From the vibes I get on dakka and over the net it seems to me that in general people are really not swallowing anymore, yet this is only my grosse generalization since only GW has the numbers.

I could be filthy rich but that doesnt mean I'm not price sensitive, only a fool doesnt avaluate what he is actually buying.

dienekes96 wrote:I am thrilled it is in hardcover. Gets rid of the riffraff playing the game, and classes up the local gaming scene.

Polonius wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:From the vibes I get on dakka and over the net it seems to me that in general people are really not swallowing anymore, yet this is only my grosse generalization since only GW has the numbers.

I could be filthy rich but that doesnt mean I'm not price sensitive, only a fool doesnt avaluate what he is actually buying.

I hear that, and I"m not saying that nobody is price sensitive. I've been in the hobby for nine years now, or roughly when the price hikes began in earnest. In that time, I've heard plenty of comments about "GW pricing itself out of the market" while my collection grows, my ability to get in a game grows, and the national tournament scene and interent hobby scene grows.

Obviously there's a point where the product becomes untenably expensive. I've just stopped trying to gues where that point is. I speak for myself and my buying habits when I talk about price, but I've been proven wrong too many times to bank too hard on the idea that GW doesn't know what they are doing.

I've also learned that people leave the hobby because they are done with it. Now, the reason given is always something like price, or new rules, or not wanting to add on to their army, but the bottom line is that most people don't stay in a hobby for a decade, let along their entire life. So yes, this price increase may knock some people out, but they were mostly out the door already.

If I'm an O&G player that games twice a week and attends tournaments, that new army book is well worth $37, as it keeps me playing.

Polonius wrote:Well, for nearly all hobbyists the buying slows down. I own many large armies: why would I keep buying massive amounts of new stuff?

there is massive diminishing returns. The first GW models I bought I still use and have been painted for years. Everytime I start a new army I have to be aware that I've got more than few unfinished armies already waiting for me. The $500 I spent a decade ago on my IG bought me a decade of gaming, painting, and entry into the hobby. the $500 I've spent on Orks have bought me a few games and a giant pile of unpainted plastic. Part of that is the change from college student with more time than money to professional with ample funds but limited free time. But part of it is that after a few armies, $500 could buy more fun with Warmachine, or an Xbox, or whatever.

NAVARRO wrote:Why do you buy say more videogames or movies etc? There's always another army, another system this hobby is much about compulsive shopping but since prices are getting a "luxury" you start to be a lot less compulsive, see my point?... 500$ may be well spent elsewere for another kind of enjoyment true and I do that quite often although I dont see myself buying diferent GW armies like I used to because I know the train wreck its going to be price wise.

Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:Man, you guys, calm down, it is just a game. Is nothing sacred? I mean, really! We get a 112 page hardcover, full cover army book from GW for $37(which is cheap, the paper they print on and the color ink they use is PRICEY) ...
Edit: Oh, yeah, and there is thing called "discount retailers" and eBay, where you can get any GW product for 20% off all the time.

Lordhat wrote:I for one refuse to buy army books/ codecies in hard back. I'm not gonna pay $40 for a book that I'll ruin shoving it in/out of my gaming bag. Hardbacks are simply the wrong format for something that gets that much use, and we all know that the quality is going to be crap from the get go. Not to mention my gaming supplies are already heavy enough. Unless GW plans on releasing softbacks versions as well, I'll just end up getting a PDF version somewhere, and make do with that.

Polonius wrote:Ok, obviously few O&G players are going to not buy the new book. So, a big market is already there. And if GW continues to make each new release great in terms of models and rules, then the book will sell because it's a good army.

So, in terms of the already hooked, and the people that are going to get hooked, the price is either worth it or worth swallowing.

Here's a question, which I'm guessing GW market reseach knows: how many people buy army books without necessarily playing that army? Meaning, how many hobbyiest own more than a small handful of army books?

I don't know. I know that I have nearly every 40k codex ever published, and most of the 6th and 7th edition WFB books (and I've played five games of fantasy in my life). $20 was an easy impulse buy. $25 wasn't hard, especially as quality goes up. Nearly $40 starts becoming a luxury for me.

Now, it's possible that GW thinks that instead of spendin the $37 on a book I won't use, I'll spend it on other GW product. And maybe they are right.

The point is, they've essentially release a "deluxe collectors edition", and if there is no standard version, it becomes less worthwhile to many hobbyist.

It's an interesting gambit, and it might work. As a hobby we've swallowed every price increase thus far.

Polonius wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:From the vibes I get on dakka and over the net it seems to me that in general people are really not swallowing anymore, yet this is only my grosse generalization since only GW has the numbers.

I could be filthy rich but that doesnt mean I'm not price sensitive, only a fool doesnt avaluate what he is actually buying.

I hear that, and I"m not saying that nobody is price sensitive. I've been in the hobby for nine years now, or roughly when the price hikes began in earnest. In that time, I've heard plenty of comments about "GW pricing itself out of the market" while my collection grows, my ability to get in a game grows, and the national tournament scene and interent hobby scene grows.

Obviously there's a point where the product becomes untenably expensive. I've just stopped trying to gues where that point is. I speak for myself and my buying habits when I talk about price, but I've been proven wrong too many times to bank too hard on the idea that GW doesn't know what they are doing.

I've also learned that people leave the hobby because they are done with it. Now, the reason given is always something like price, or new rules, or not wanting to add on to their army, but the bottom line is that most people don't stay in a hobby for a decade, let along their entire life. So yes, this price increase may knock some people out, but they were mostly out the door already.

If I'm an O&G player that games twice a week and attends tournaments, that new army book is well worth $37, as it keeps me playing.

Lordhat wrote:I for one refuse to buy army books/ codecies in hard back. I'm not gonna pay $40 for a book that I'll ruin shoving it in/out of my gaming bag. Hardbacks are simply the wrong format for something that gets that much use, and we all know that the quality is going to be crap from the get go. Not to mention my gaming supplies are already heavy enough. Unless GW plans on releasing softbacks versions as well, I'll just end up getting a PDF version somewhere, and make do with that.

NAVARRO wrote:
Yeah we old buggers that have been here for more than a decade know that people come and go and yes I know you were talking from your personal experience towards GW. You know I kind of feel we are the exception since most just find other hobbies
But personally speaking I dont buy not even 10% of what I used to get back in the days and each box or blister I get from GW must really be special... For example I just got Hordes rulebook and I think I should have had the hardback because the quality perceived is so much higher than anything GW churns out.

You also seem to be a bit more concerned about prices since you consider a book over X a luxury and anyone that been around for so long knows this trend of raising prices is getting out of hand latelly, blame the economic situation or just our old grumpy mood but I believe that even hardcore folks are reavaluating the amounts they ussually get from GW.

I suck at economics so from the reviews i read about GW sales if they are accurate and if GW is not selling what it was supposed to maybe a critical mass has been reached, I dont know.
Sometimes little things like this 30%raise on book can change everything and some people close the doors... the problem is that GW has been doing so many little things like this so often.
Sorry for all these ramblings but sometimes I look at GW and see the stress they make me endure and supporting a GW army is becoming more of a burden than rather a pleasure and thats the absolute oposite of my definition of hobby.

Buzzsaw wrote:

Polonius wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:From the vibes I get on dakka and over the net it seems to me that in general people are really not swallowing anymore, yet this is only my grosse generalization since only GW has the numbers.

I could be filthy rich but that doesnt mean I'm not price sensitive, only a fool doesnt avaluate what he is actually buying.

I hear that, and I"m not saying that nobody is price sensitive. I've been in the hobby for nine years now, or roughly when the price hikes began in earnest. In that time, I've heard plenty of comments about "GW pricing itself out of the market" while my collection grows, my ability to get in a game grows, and the national tournament scene and interent hobby scene grows.

Obviously there's a point where the product becomes untenably expensive. I've just stopped trying to gues where that point is. I speak for myself and my buying habits when I talk about price, but I've been proven wrong too many times to bank too hard on the idea that GW doesn't know what they are doing.

I've also learned that people leave the hobby because they are done with it. Now, the reason given is always something like price, or new rules, or not wanting to add on to their army, but the bottom line is that most people don't stay in a hobby for a decade, let along their entire life. So yes, this price increase may knock some people out, but they were mostly out the door already.

If I'm an O&G player that games twice a week and attends tournaments, that new army book is well worth $37, as it keeps me playing.

This got me thinking about models for getting rules to players, and I realized how elegant PP's model actually is:

Hardcore collector/enthusiast of one faction? Get the $45 hardcover faction book, with full art, background and modeling sections.

Collector/enthusiast of more then one faction? $35 softcover has (as far as I know) all the content in the hardcore.

Just want the rules for a given faction? For $19 you can get the faction deck, which has rules for all the models updated for Mk.II.

That 3 tier system seems pretty good now that I think about it. When Army Books/Codices were around the $25 mark, I would pick each one up as it came out, just to have a handle on the shape of the game. As the books have gone up in price, I've stopped picking them up, and co-incident with that my overall interest has dropped (not going to blame that all on book prices).

But, if I could pick up just the rules for the faction for $19 MSRP? You bet I would have all of them.

But, GW is, at least it seems, going the opposite direction here: rather then give people multiple ways in, they are only offering the premium level.

Durzod wrote:I don't like to rely on Army Builder (too many glitches), but that may be the way to go if I wanna continue 40k and/or WHFB. Wait a couple of months THEN play the newest version of my old armies...until GW catches on and yanks their license.
GW, now there's the real internet pirates.

heacy hitter wrote:I like the look of whats in the bottom left hand corne. Wonder what it is?

Nothing in the 8th edition book leads me to believe the army rules will be better; in fact playing 8th edition has shown the exact opposite since 6th and 7th were inherently better designed...

yevix wrote:
maybe less focus on pictures and artwork and fluff that doesn't make sense most of the time and more on rules paint guides etc...

I can see his point not everyone cares about the fluff or artwork (I certainly dont care is its black and white or color) some just want a good tabletop game...

dienekes96 wrote:I am thrilled it is in hardcover. Gets rid of the riffraff playing the game, and classes up the local gaming scene.

Bram Gaunts OnG summary

Disclaimer: I will repeat some things that already were said. I will only talk about -new- things. I will not talk about pointcosts. I have a raging headache, so there will be more mispelling than usual.

General Rules

Animosity: Each Unit with the Animosity special rule with at least 5 moldels wit hthat rule rolls 1d6 at beginning of their players turn. 2+ nothing happens, and the unit may act normally.

You do not toll for animosity as long as you man a building.

On a roll of 1, roll a D6 again, and consult the following chart to see what happens.

1: The unit deals D6 S3 autohits to the nearest friendly unit with: at least 5 models that have the animosity rule, within 12 inches. The 'hit' unit afterwards deals D6 S3 hits to the quarreling unit. If there's no valid 'target', treat this result as a 2-5
Hordes caus 2D6 hits.
This never causes panic.
Both units may not perform any other action in this turn. The 'victim' does not have to roll for animosity this turn - they are to busy fighting back.

2-5: The unit has to declare an attack at the nearest valid enemy unit. If there is no target, the greenskins start to attack each other. Nothing happens, but the unit may not move, attack, shoot or cast spells for the following turn.

6. "Who's da best? Yes, dat's us. Let's get 'em!" The unit is aligned towards the nearest enemy unit and performs a regular move action towards that unit (it may not march, and stops 1 inch before enemy units. ). Afterwards, the unit may act normal. If there is no visible opponent the unit moves straight forward.
EG: A unit of Goblin Wolf Riders rolls a 1, followed by a 6, for animosity. You measure the distance to all enemy units, and find that a unit of Highelf Reavers, standing 20" away in their flank, is the nearest unit. The goblins are now turned on spot (as they would be if they were to persue an enemy) and are moved 9 inches towards the reavers afterwards. They may declare a charge, move, march or fire their weapons at will.


Choppas.
A model with a Choppa increases it's strength characteristics by 1 for each first round of close combat. This does not apply to mounts of any kind. It applys to magical weapons aswell.

Fear Elves:
Any Elven Unit causes fear for a unit with this special rule.

Size matters:
Orks never have to pass a panic test caused by a unit that is only composed from goblins or creatures ridden by goblins (that goes for the arachnarok spider aswell)

Big'unz
You may have one unit total per army.

Units

Ork Warbosses (any kind)
Profile the same. Orc Warbosses have light armour, black orc warbosses heavy armour as standard loadout.

Waaagh! Special rule.
Once per game, a Orc Warboss who is the army general of any kind (Savage or Black or Vanilla) may declare a Waaagh, after he declared a valid charge. For the rest of the turn all units of Boar Boys (any kind) or Orcs (any kind) that have at least 5 models gain +1 on their combat resolution. The Generals unit gains +D3 instead. (Yes, that rule is lame.)

Surpress Animosity (Black Orc Characters) If a unit fails their animosity check, the Boss deals D6 S5 hits, that may not be allocated to the boss and never cause panic.


Shaman - no change.

I don't know if it was the case earlier, but great orc shaman may mound a wyvern now.

Orcs:

Arrar Boys Boss gains +1 BS instead of +1 A/WS

Boar Boys:
No changes in stats. Come with a hand weapon and light armour at moderate point costs. Big un upgrade and weapons upgrades are a little cheaper. Overall I personally still don't deem them worthy...

Orc Chariot
No changes. Keeps spears and the option on 3rd crew member.

Black Orcs
Points dropped (or point drop), gained ItP

Savage ORcs
Savage orcs gain the impact-spear. It'S a unit upgrade that can be taken once. The unit deals D3 S5 impact hits (which deal D3 wounds at large creatures) as long as it has at least 1 rank of 5 models behind the first.. You have to nominate 1 model that causes the hits at the beginning of close combat.

Savage Boar Boys
Savage Boar Boys gain +1 attack from fighting with 2 handweapons, but they suffer casulties for dangerous terrain on a roll of 1-2.

Goblin Bosses (any kind) - no changes. They may NOT declare a Waaagh.

Goblin Shaman
Night Goblin Shaman now have magic shrooms (don't know what they are called) as a default loadout. they have to take one at east attempt to cast a spell. They add D6 on their casting attempt.
This is not counted a power dice and therefor may not trigger irresistable force. If the goblin rolls a 1 for the shroom he loses a wound on a roll of 4+ and the cast is automatically considered a miscast (meaning it fails) as long as he doesn't roll irresistable force with the power dice.

Goblins
Upgrade costs at the same price as skaven clanrats.
Nigh Goblins may get to pic either bows or spears for free instead.
Sneaky Gitz (those new chars) are treated as characters and may not leave the unit. They are hidden just as skaven/DE assassins, nut have to be revealed at 1st round of cc. they may be targetted individually.
Thay gain killing blow at first round of combat.
They have a S of 3, 2 A, WS 2.

Goblin Wolfriders
remain light cavallery with 4+ AS.

Goblin Chariots
the same, same options.

Rock Lobba - the same

Spear Chukka:
If you roll a 1 to hit you roll on the misfire chart of Stonethrowers from the rulebook.

Doom Divers
Fires like a Stonethrower, but still deals D6 S5 hits with no AS allowed.
You may hit several units with the doom diver theoratically, as you use his base (the winged guy on the skimemr base) to determine who's hit.

Spider-Riders
May move across obstacles and Buildings without penaltys, but not end their movement atop of them (or in them)
They can fight in buildings and keep all benefits from being mounted. Mount and rider count as 1 model.

Arachnarok Spider
Where to start?
ItP, causes Terror, Large Target, Stubborn, Fast Movement, Wallclimber (may move over buildings like Spider Riders), Poisoned attacks (spider only)

All attacs in CC are fought against the Spider. You cannot attack the goblin crew in any way. If it's mounted by a great shaman the shaman is hit by all ranged attacks on a roll of 5+

It has a Crew of 8 goblins armed with bows and spears.

Poisoned blow: befor rolling to hit with the spider you have to pick one of it'S attacks and roll that seperate. This attack deals multiple wounds (D6)

Netlobber is a Stone thrower with S 1(3), units hit suffer from always strikes last until the End of the spiders NEXT turn (3 rounds of cc totally). It may fire and move, but not march. Misfire means it just doesn't fire at all.

Shrine: +2 to channel for all friendly mages within 12", shaman on top gains Master of Lores

Fanatics: The same as before, only that they are counted as being in light cover.

Squigs: No characters may join squig herds.

Squig Rider
Cavallery, skirmishers. If you roll a triple 6 for movement, each squig causes impact hit (1)
Giant Cave Squig: A character mounted on a giant cave squig may join squig riders. Ig he does the unit may reroll their movement roll.

Squig fanatics:
S6, T4, W3.
They move 3D6 inches until they come in contact wit a unit. From there on they act like fanatics. Counting to be in light cover.

Work like fanatics, only that they deal 2D6 S6 armourpiercing attacks.


Trolls: Same as before
Stone Trolls: 5+ scaly save, MR (2)

River Trolls: as befor.

Snotlings: Special Coice.
Boom shroom: Boom shrooms are a thrown wapon that hits automatically and ignores armour saves.

snotling chariot
several upgrades, like dealing stronger impact hits, first impact hits ignore armour saves, more movement, etc.

Gorbad Ironclaw

His wapon grant him ASF, ignores Armour saves and causes multiple wounds (d3)
Works as General and BSB within 18 inches all the time
you may field as many biguns as you want with gorbad
as long as he lives all units within 18 inches from him get a bonus of his current wounds on their rolls on the animosity chart.

Azhag
Lvl 3 Wizard using lore of death
all orcs within 18 inches of azhag have to reroll failed animosity checks

Wurzhag
Lvl 4 wizard
Furry Squig: may store up to 1 power or dispel dice per (regarding who's turn it is) to be used in the next magic phase. (either as a power or dispel dice)
Has MR (3) and may reroll miscast rolls.
5+ wardsave through his warpaint
His mask contains the spell "Destructive Glare", see magic section later on.

Wurrzagh's Fury: Curse spell, 8+. all enemy casters within 12 " have to roll 1 d6. They are removed from play with no saves allowed on a roll of 6, including their mounts. For each killd wizard Wurrzhag gains 1 die in his furry squig, and the capacity for stored dice is increased by 1.

Grom
no change, but he may declare a Waaagh which affects all Goblin infantry or cavallery in adition to all orc units.

Skarsnik
Skarsniks weapon contains a bound spell, level 5: Deals D3 S6 hits with no armour saves allowed. Increased to D6 hits if he'S within 12 " to a night goblin horde.

At the beginning of the game roll a D6 for each emeny unit. On a roll of 6 they are delayed and arrive in their owners 1st turn via reinforcements.

Nightgoblin Units that rallied after chosing 'flee' may move after regrouping, as if they were light cavallery.

Snagla Magotspitta
Spider Cavallery character. (he's a hero choice, not an upgrade.)
he has poisoned attacks and dals multiple wounds (D3) - he has a one time thrown weapon with the same rule.
He has to join a unit of spider cavallery. They get hatred (Imperium).

Gitilla the Hunta
Wolfrider Character
He and his unit of wolf riderz gain +1 BS and may reroll flee and persuit rolls.
HE has a Sultiple shots (3) Bow

Grimgore Ironhide
Looses 2 Attacks and drops in points. Same weapon, same armour.
He has a choppa (and therefor S8 in first round of combat...)
He may declare a Waaagh!
He has to join a unit of Black Orcs, and no other character may join that unit.
The unit gains hatred (everyone, every last of 'em) and increases it's weapon skill by 1 (yes, that's for free)


Magic

I'm sorry, I don't know casting values.

The small Waaagh!
Sneaky thievery: After a small waaagh spell is succesfully cast (and not dispelled), roll a D6. You gain 1 powerdice on a roll of 5+, while your oponnent loses a dispel dice. if he has no more dispel dice, this has no effect.

Base spell: Naughty Stabbing
targetted unit within 12 inches gains armour piercing attacks. In adition they may reroll hits and wounds when they attack an enemy in the flank or rear.

1st spell: Destructive Glare
magic missile, 24". Deals 2D6 S3 hits, or if boosted, 3D6 S3 hits.

2nd spell: Gift of the Spider God
targetted friendly unit gets poisoned attacks, or the effect of exsisting poison is increased to 5+.

3rd spell: Itching
Targetted enemy unit reduces it's Movement and Initiative characteristics by D6 (minimum of 1). Units with the random movement rule reduce the dice rolled to determine their movement by D3 (and still suffer D6 penalty on their I score)

4: Gork will fix it:
Targeted enemy unit has to reroll all To hit, to wound and armour saves of 6.

5: Nightshroud.
casters unit is treated as being in light cover. All enemy units getting in b2b ontact with the affected unit have to take a test for dangerous terrain. May be expanded to all friendly units within 12".

6: Bad Moon's Curse
RiP, Magic Whirl. 3" template, moved 4D6 in a straight line away from the caster in a direction of his chosing. All models touched by the template have to pass a test on the following characteristic, or louse one wound with no AS allowed (roll a D6 to determine the characteristic):
1-2: Initiative
3-4: toughness
5-6: strength.
May be boosted to 5" template and characteristic of the wizard's chosing.


Big Waagh!
As long as there are more Orc units in CC than there are fleeing Orc units the strength characteristic of all spells from the big Waaagh is increased by 1.

Base Spell: Mork (or Gork)'s gaze: Draw a 4D6" line away from the caster. Each model touched suffers a S4 hit. May be boosted to 6D6

1st spell: Brainbursta: Pick one enemy model within LoS and 18". Targetted model gains 1 S5 hit. May boost range.

2nd spell: Gorks Fists: Caster gains +3A, +3 S and 6+ ward save. RiP.

3rd spell: Gorks hand:
Pick one model from the frst rank of targetted friendly unit. Place it with alignement of your chosing within 3D6 inches of former location, and arrange the unit in same formation around it. May be boosted to 5D6.

4th spell: Headbutt
Targeted enemy caster within 4D6 inches suffers a S4 multiple wounds (D3) hit withou AS. Range may be boosted to 6D6.

5th spell: Let's get going:
Affacts all friendly orc units within "d& inches. They may reroll to hit rolls in Close combat.

6th spell: Gorks Feet.
Place the Gork's Feet template (yes, it's back.) within 36 inches of the shaman, and scatter it D6 inches. all touched models suffer a S6 hit that causes multiple wounds (D3)

afterwards, roll a D6.
1: Gork Slippes (or was shoved by Mork) and stomps upon one of your own units
2-3: Gork Wanders off (spell ends)
4+: stomp again (either a different unit, or the same one.)

Haven't been through the items yet, and my head is killing me. Enjoy =)

Spider looks real cool but unless there's some sort of new howda rule where you can only hit one crew with a template weapon it's going to be useless on the table when one cannon ball kills all 10 goblins riding in it with one shot.