A matter of Sanity.

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Andrew1975**

Ever read the Dark Hersey books or the Books about the imperial navy battles? It is over entire systems sometimes.

I'll bring that up next time someone is more than 30cm from a basic battery. 30CM!

**Asherian Command**

Sierk wrote:Umm yeah im for the impirium and i dont really understand where your coming from asherian. Imperial armada, star wars right? If so how would the fluff say that star wars have defences in 40k. srry i just ddont understand yourt post. Your saying that gellar sheilds protect against psychic storsms and since psykers are 40k im assuming thats a 40k sheild still effectively saying that we have psyker defences and you dont.

Wow I really hate how the names are similar. I am talking about SW Empire has no chance. But IOM wins because they have defenses. Also Sierk I struggled reading your post. Could you please re edit it?

Source?

If it is BFG then your ranges are off, see my earth to Battleship example.

If you are disregarding established fluff then we cannot count anything you have mentioned. You cannot discount stuff. especially if the earth is 6,371 miles. The world is oversize by a tad. So that is still 10,000 kms wow. congrats the SW is still at a loss.

**DeathReaper**

Asherian Command wrote:If you are disregarding established fluff then we cannot count anything you have mentioned. You cannot discount stuff. especially if the earth is 6,371 miles. The world is oversize by a tad. So that is still 10,000 kms wow. congrats the SW is still at a loss.

I am not "disregarding established fluff" I just asked where you got that info from as Kal's calculations are not correct.

A Retribution Class Battleship is about 12 centimetres long in BFG.

In reality its about 15km long. If This is to be trusted.

Kaldor wrote:The 'earth' template is around 20cm across.

Which puts the earth at about 25km, when it should be 1000 times bigger than that.

So the scale of BFG is off, and the ships can not move that fast based on Kal's calculations.

Thus the BFG scale comparison is off. I have given pics of the star destroyers sizes, but have seen nothing to suggest that the 40k ranges are "10000 or more" as you claim.

**Alexzandvar**

Oh my god, the Empire has TWO SHIPS THAT ARE ALMOST AS LARGE AS THE HUNDREDS OF SHIPS THE IMPERIUM HAS

*gasp*

But really the Imperium could just overwhelm the Empire in any Star Battle. The Imperium fields fleets from the Hundreds to Thousands in ship count.

**Asherian Command**

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/270/326311.page
Please read this thread death reaper.
BTW this is just in armaggeddon alone....

FORCE DISPOSITIONS AFTER THE FIRST SEASON OF FIRE

IMPERIAL GUARD
1st Div, ARCADIAN RIFLES ...........................................6 Regiments
ARM. ASH WASTE MILITIA .........................................13 Regiments
ARM. COMMAND GUARD ...........................................5 Companies
ARM HIVE MILITIA ...................................................280 Regiments
ARM. ORK HUNTERS..................................................11 Regiments
ARM. STEEL LEGION..................................................56 Regiments
ARPHISTA PENAL LEGION .......................................1 Demi-Legion
ASGARDIAN RANGERS .................................................2 Regiments
CADIAN SHOCK TROOPS ..........................................19 Regiments
CANAK IV ‘SKULL TAKERS’ ....................................................1 Clan
CATACHAN JUNGLE TROOPS ......................................3 Regiments
CITYFIGHTING PROVISIONAL
COMPANIES......................................................Est. 600 Companies
DEATH KORPS OF KRIEG ............................................5 Regiments
ELYSIAN DROP TROOPS ............................................12 Regiments
JOPALL INDENTURED SQDNS...................................12 Regiments
MINERVAN TANK LEGIONS..............................................3 Legions
MONGLOR OGRYN AUXILIA........................................1 Regiments
MORDIAN IRON GUARD..............................................8 Regiments
8th NECROMUNDAN ‘SPIDERS’ ...................................3 Battalions
NOCTAN STRIKE FORCES............................................5 Regiments
NORDIAN BERZERKERS...............................................4 Regiments
OCANON PHALANX TROOPS ......................................8 Regiments
PYRAN DRAGOONS......................................................8 Regiments
POLAX 41ST ‘SHOCK’....................................................1 Regiment
SAVLAR CHEM-DOGS ...................................................6 Regiments
SAVLAR CHEM-RIDERS.................................................2 Regiments
SEBASTIN DEFENDERS..............................................15 Regiments
SEMTEXIAN BOMBARDIERS...........................................9 Batteries
STORM TROOPERS...................................................18 Companies
TERRAN PRAEFECTS ..................................................10 Regiments
INQUISITORIAL INDUCTED COMPANIES .................3 Companies
VALHALLAN ICE WARRIORS.........................................8 Regiments
ZOUVAN SKIRMISHERS...................................................3 Brigades
VORGARN LIGHT INFANTRY .....................................12 Regiments
XENONIAN FREE COMPANIES ...................................5 Companies

**Tadashi**

"What's our distance?"
"Approximately 293km."
"Signal the fleet to withdraw. Prepare to detonate warp drives. The Emperor Protects."

**Kaldor**

DeathReaper wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:That is to scale...

Yes that is to scale, on different scales...

A Retribution Class Battleship is about 12 centimetres long

In reality its about 15km long. If This is to be trusted.

Kaldor wrote:The 'earth' template is around 20cm across.

Which puts the earth at about 25km, when it should be 1000 times bigger than that.

So the scale of BFG is off, and the ships can not move that fast based on Kal's calculations.

The models themselves are not to scale. The rulebook states that obviously battles in space are conducted at such distances that no models could ever represent it accurately, so the models themselves are abstract representions. No reason to assume the rest of the measurements are off scale though.

At the end of the day, whichever way you slice it SW ships are painfully slow. We have sports cars today that are faster. IoM ships are much faster, and obviously engage at much longer ranges.

**ObliviousBlueCaboose**

The only source i have on hand is my guants ghosts the saint. Where an IoM battlegroup detects an chaos battle groupbat 9 au or 1 346 382 000 000 miles. And imediedtly started to move to engage. Battle happend within 40 minutes.

**greektlake**

This thread, espically the posts by BlaxicanX and DeathReaper, has made me start to dislike Star Wars. The impotent nerd rage is palpable. i wish to go back to the days when all i thought of Star Wars was blasters, hot chicks, wookies and The Force.

**DeathReaper**

Kaldor wrote:The models themselves are not to scale. The rulebook states that obviously battles in space are conducted at such distances that no models could ever represent it accurately, so the models themselves are abstract representions. No reason to assume the rest of the measurements are off scale though.

If the models are in different scales, the measurements will be off. Not just by a little either.

lets show you how. Using some of your numbers.

in BFG the ship can move 10cm, thats about 4 inches, which translates into 4 squares on a movement mat for D&D, which equals about 6 meters in the D&D world. Given the 1 hour per game turn that you cited, that means the BFG ships move VERY slowly, about 147 meters per day. so you see, different scales have a big impact on measurements and can throw them way off.

Kaldor wrote:At the end of the day, whichever way you slice it SW ships are painfully slow. We have sports cars today that are faster. IoM ships are much faster, and obviously engage at much longer ranges.

and you have some evidence, other than the BFG scale errors you posted earlier, to support this?

greektlake wrote:The impotent nerd rage is palpable.

What? really?
Can you cite an example of this?

**King Pariah**

Has anyone read Hellforged? The part where a necron ship rips out the core of a star and consumes it? That has to be larger than a World Engine to pull off that stunt. Enjoy battling that SW.

Anyway back to the Imperium vs SW.... If you go by current fluff (so no suncrushers or eclipses for SW) for both, SW doesn't stand a chance. the IoM may have slower travel but holds superiority in every other way. Just being able to trump another force one way does not ensure victory.

**Soo'Vah'Cha**

ok now for some slideshow action....

STAR WARS vs. 40K

This... Imperial ATAT

Vs.
Imperial Scout Titan

This... Imperial Army

Vs.

Imperial Guard

This... Imperial Stormtroopers

Vs.

Imperial Space Marines

This... Ewoks...?!?

Vs.

Imperial Ratlings..halflings.....err hobbits with guns...

Now I dont care one way or the other, I loved starwars as a kid, but then lucas had to meddle in his great creation, so I may have a bit more compasion for 40k now.

**Kaldor**

DeathReaper wrote:
Kaldor wrote:The models themselves are not to scale. The rulebook states that obviously battles in space are conducted at such distances that no models could ever represent it accurately, so the models themselves are abstract representions. No reason to assume the rest of the measurements are off scale though.

If the models are in different scales, the measurements will be off. Not just by a little either.

lets show you how. Using some of your numbers.

in BFG the ship can move 10cm, thats about 4 inches, which translates into 4 squares on a movement mat for D&D, which equals about 6 meters in the D&D world. Given the 1 hour per game turn that you cited, that means the BFG ships move VERY slowly, about 147 meters per day. so you see, different scales have a big impact on measurements and can throw them way off.

There are two scales. The models, and everything else. All weapon ranges, template sizes, movement rates, etc are in the same scale. The models are in another scale.

**DeathReaper**

Kaldor wrote:There are two scales. The models, and everything else. All weapon ranges, template sizes, movement rates, etc are in the same scale. The models are in another scale.

Umm yea, I will just leave this here:

Kaldor wrote:BFG estimates. The 'earth' template is around 20cm across. The Earth itself is around 24,000kms in diameter. Making 10cm in game the equivalent of around 12,000kms. I'm assuming a game turn of BFG is around one hour, although it could be much less. Cruising speed for an Imperial Cruiser is 20cm,

The movement rates are off, your calculations are incorrect.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Kaldor wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
Kaldor wrote:The models themselves are not to scale. The rulebook states that obviously battles in space are conducted at such distances that no models could ever represent it accurately, so the models themselves are abstract representions. No reason to assume the rest of the measurements are off scale though.

If the models are in different scales, the measurements will be off. Not just by a little either.

lets show you how. Using some of your numbers.

in BFG the ship can move 10cm, thats about 4 inches, which translates into 4 squares on a movement mat for D&D, which equals about 6 meters in the D&D world. Given the 1 hour per game turn that you cited, that means the BFG ships move VERY slowly, about 147 meters per day. so you see, different scales have a big impact on measurements and can throw them way off.

There are two scales. The models, and everything else. All weapon ranges, template sizes, movement rates, etc are in the same scale. The models are in another scale.

This. Measurements aren't taken from the models, but from the base. The base, in turn, represents the "immediate" area around the ship.

As for the Q, pretending that the various deities of 40k are omnipotent when thru clearly aren't renders any attempted argument null and void.

**Luke_Prowler**

You guy do realize that Q, while he is omnipotent, is fickle and uncareing? He has never actually helped the federation unless it was a by-product of his own amusement. If it would be more entertaining watching the two armies trading blows then he would gladly sit and watch with popcorn in hand.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Luke_Prowler wrote:You guy do realize that Q, while he is omnipotent, is fickle and uncareing? He has never actually helped the federation unless it was a by-product of his own amusement. If it would be more entertaining watching the two armies trading blows then he would gladly sit and watch with popcorn in hand.

Yes, but the argument was that nothing in the ST universe could beat the IoM, which is blatantly untrue.

**ObliviousBlueCaboose**

I dont think the SW stormtrooper is the equivilent of a Space Marine. If anything the SW stormtrooper is equal to ani Imperia Guardsmen. If that was your point, then sorry to repeat it. If your suggesting that SW could defeat the IoM on the ground. Then no. Guard would walk all over the SW troops. Esp since most of their forces are like the Imerial Army.

**Sierk**

Huhhh is q a sw or st thing because actually the original question was if star wars the clone wars can beat 40k Iom.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Sierk wrote:Huhhh is q a sw or st thing because actually the original question was if star wars the clone wars can beat 40k Iom.

Threads evolve, and one of the later statements was the one I posted above. Deal with it.

**Sierk**

I never said it was a bad thing so no need for the harshness.

**Brother Coa**

God Emperor....this again.

How many times do we have to say that no matter how many times we do counting, comparing etc... Imperium will always win over Empire simply because of sheer number of troops, tanks and everything else it has at it's disposal.

Empire most elite troops lost to the bunch of teddy bears. That's like Space Marines Terminators lose from a bunch of Gretchins with sticks. And Empire fall in the end, to the vastly outnumbered Alliance fleet that destroyed their SSD and Death Star in single battle.

Now, if Star Wars fanboys won't admit that anything from Star Wars can loose that's another thing.

**Tadashi**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Luke_Prowler wrote:You guy do realize that Q, while he is omnipotent, is fickle and uncareing? He has never actually helped the federation unless it was a by-product of his own amusement. If it would be more entertaining watching the two armies trading blows then he would gladly sit and watch with popcorn in hand.

Yes, but the argument was that nothing in the ST universe could beat the IoM, which is blatantly untrue.

Perhaps, but still Q and the rest of his kind prefer to distance themselves from mortals, so they actually have less influence than 40k gods.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Tadashi wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Luke_Prowler wrote:You guy do realize that Q, while he is omnipotent, is fickle and uncareing? He has never actually helped the federation unless it was a by-product of his own amusement. If it would be more entertaining watching the two armies trading blows then he would gladly sit and watch with popcorn in hand.

Yes, but the argument was that nothing in the ST universe could beat the IoM, which is blatantly untrue.

Perhaps, but still Q and the rest of his kind prefer to distance themselves from mortals, so they actually have less influence than 40k gods.

Not in the theoretical situation that we're discussing. If the Q for some reason were convinced to fight the IoM, the fight would be over before it began.

**Tadashi**

Not really. The only that can distract (and unite) the gods from the Great Game is something that disrupts the game. I doubt if Q can take on all the collective sum of all the hate, emotions, and belief of every single living thing in 40k. It'll be like the C'tan, blown to bits by the power if the material universe. Only this time, the power of the immaterial universe blows the Q apart. And when I mean gods, all gods, including non-Chaos Powers, and even dead ones, like the old Eldar gods.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Tadashi wrote:Not really. The only that can distract (and unite) the gods from the Great Game is something that disrupts the game. I doubt if Q can take on all the collective sum of all the hate, emotions, and belief of every single living thing in 40k. It'll be like the C'tan, blown to bits by the power if the material universe. Only this time, the power of the immaterial universe blows the Q apart. And when I mean gods, all gods, including non-Chaos Powers, and even dead ones, like the old Eldar gods.

OMNIPOTENT. From latin, "omnipotens", "almighty, "omnis" meaning "all", and "potens" meaning powerful. What part of the word is unclear? What's your source for this "great game", and why wouldn't something that is omnipotent be able to take on some random powerful beings?

**Asherian Command**

I agree With almightywalrus having watched to episode 10 times to make sense of it. The Q will win.
Omnipotent is like now adays christian god. Consider the emperor of man give him the ability to create things at will like entire races and sentient life in a millisecond, destroy entire gaxalies at will. That is what the Q can do. There is nothing the 40k, Starwars universe that can compare. Sorry but the Chaos gods are not able to do so they have to split themselves apart to make things.

Now the Federation, or any other race that is in star trek yes 40k would own. But with The Q involved, star trek wins.

I've played warhammer 40k for 10 years and I still say that they lose to maybe a few universes only because the chances of them actually beating an entire god like force (Supreme commander, and the other games where entire forces are built in like 30 seconds.) They lose.

**Brother Coa**

Asherian Command wrote:
Now the Federation, or any other race that is in star trek yes 40k would own. But with The Q involved, star trek wins.

No according to this:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/jforum.page?module=posts&action=list&topic_id=403027&viewResults=true

**Asherian Command**

Brother Coa wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:
Now the Federation, or any other race that is in star trek yes 40k would own. But with The Q involved, star trek wins.

No according to this:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/jforum.page?module=posts&action=list&topic_id=403027&viewResults=true

I still find that incredibly biased. Both would be at a standstill and just look at each other angrily.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Asherian Command wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:
Now the Federation, or any other race that is in star trek yes 40k would own. But with The Q involved, star trek wins.

No according to this:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/jforum.page?module=posts&action=list&topic_id=403027&viewResults=true

I still find that incredibly biased. Both would be at a standstill and just look at each other angrily.

Q can travel through time at will. The Chaos Gods can't. The End.