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Yeah, because this is Warhammer: 40,000, not Star Wars, Star Trek, Battletech, Big Eyes Small Mouth, Toon!, Rifts, Cyberpunk or Dungeons & Dragons.

Certain things work in these other games because that's how things work in those games. In 40K, there's a fundamental way that certain things are understood to work. Bolters fire a mass-reactive, explosive, armor-piercing shell. Titans are controlled by a directly-linked psychic pilot. Worshiping the Chaos Gods causes mutations. Commissars and Inquisitors, as a rule, have their sense of humor surgically removed upon attaining the rank. Space Marines are big, and male.

It's how the setting is written.

Psienesis wrote:

It's how the setting is written.

So every time GW changes what's written, the world ends? I've been playing the game for about 18 years and they've changed the back-story more than I have fingers and toes. There's so little written about Tau that they could come out with a book tomorrow that includes giant Tau battlesuits the size of Titans.

One thing that has been repeatedly written about Tau in fluff is their ability to change their tactics as situations demand and their sheer adaptability that helps a small fish in a big pond (no pun intended) survive.

Sort of. If GW changes the background info, then that's GW's perogative, they own the property. If they want to say that the Tyranids suddenly grew less-mindless, began to question their actions, and then suddenly felt really, really bad about devouring twelve-plus galaxies and now really just want to sit down, take stock of their lives, and maybe open a kitten rescue service, well, then, "Bugs Save Kitten, pict-cast at 11".

Giant Tau-built Titans would be fine. That's obvious Tau-tech, developed by the Tau, to fill whatever role the Tau felt they needed to fill with a Titan. More power to 'em.

That's nothing like having the Tau "convert" an Imperial Titan, piloted by a Princeps, into some sort of weird hybrid Tau-Imperial God-Machine. Based on what we know of the Tau, and the Imperium, it's... well, not impossible, just very, very, very, exceedingly, extremely unlikely.

Actually each edition of the game doesn't rewrite its history, It ADDS to it.

Thats pretty much what warhammer is though isn't it -
'Tales of the extemely unlikely'

Ovion wrote:Thats pretty much what warhammer is though isn't it -
'Tales of the extemely unlikely'

Pretty much, thats why Sci-Fi exists... escapism into the completely improbable

From the perspective of someone in the real world, sure, but any good fiction is self-supporting. Things make sense within its own universe... or are supposed to, at any rate.

This is why Buffy does not suddenly stake Edward in Twilight, because there is no Buffy the Vampire Slayer in Twilight.

Harry Potter wasn't branded a sorcerer and blinded with his tongue cut out because the Qunari don't live in the Harry Potter world. Nor were he and his friends risking daemonic possession every time they cast a spell, because that's not how magic functions in the Harry Potter world. Nor did Hermione attempt to Still him, because he's a channeling male, because it's Hogwarts, not the White Tower.

Within the setting of 40K, we're provided (in many cases,not all) how things work and how they function, whether it's Imperial, Tau, Eldar, or Tyranid or whatever. One of the things we do know is how Imperial Titans function (generally speaking), how a Princeps is linked into it, via cables and psychic links, and how he is an integral part of operating the god-machine. So, like I said, it's unlikely that a Princeps would join the cause of the Tau, but not impossible (such as the idea of Chaos-corrupted Grey Knights.... that *is* impossible within the "canon").

I think it was mentioned before but what's to stop the Tau from just ripping out the machine spirit and plugging in an advanced form of drone control? If they have drone intelligence that can help pilot starships through the warp, I think they can handle a giant robot.

The Machine Spirit would sense the intrusion and initiate Self-destruction before they could finish.

And the Tau simply wouldn't have a desire to retro-fit an Imperial Titan. Why would they when they could just built their own with their own technology.

Grey Templar wrote:The Machine Spirit would sense the intrusion and initiate Self-destruction before they could finish.

And the Tau simply wouldn't have a desire to retro-fit an Imperial Titan. Why would they when they could just built their own with their own technology.

Very valid point, though I'm sure they could bypass the self-destruct somehow. For argument's sake let's say they do it as a proof of concept, digital warfare to hack Titans in the field and turn them against their owners; some sort of viral programming. Wouldn't that cause Mars some fits...

The Machine Spirit is generally a totality of the systems that operate a given machine, rather than a specific component. Think of it as a semi-AI caused by the cloud of systems in the item in question.

If the Tau managed to remove the Machine-Spirit... well, let's assume that they are able to replace whatever systems they remove that creates the Machine-Spirit.... and then hook a drone up to the Princeps' socket, and the Drone figures out how to run all of the sensory input systems that Titans normally have (the Princeps feels what the Titan does) and they have a bunch of Earth and Fire Caste guys that eventually figure out how to do all the stuff that the other crew of a Titan need to do, or build drones that can figure it out.... then, yeah, they can probably get one running.

The next problem for the Tau comes up after the first or second battle: reloading the guns. The Tau don't make mega-bolters or volcano cannons. This is Imperial tech they've probably never seen, and never had to even attempt to figure out. So they're going to either need to scale up some guns to mount on this thing (or give it really stubby arms) or need to figure out how to create the ammo and then reload the thing.

It seems to me that, in the end, it would be more trouble than its worth to the Tau.

Yeah, that's completely logical.

Mmm giant robot with heavy railguns....

The Mega Bolters yes. But other non ammunition based weapons such as Volcano Cannons ( or Turbo Lasers Destructors in this case) or Plasma Blastguns, would just require a big battery so to speak. It may not have quite the same effect but it would.perform the needs required.

They could even replace.the weapons as have been mentions. Think a big ass Burst Cannon in place of a VMB.

well guys, it looks like you all have your own opinions about the tau, but if you look at it like this.................a tau warhound!........40k sentinals are operated by 1 pilot, ripley from aliens and the power loader, starwars scout walker, etc..........i like to think there would be an experienced pilot to be incharge of his vehicle and crew. (or may be not in the case of orks and gretchens etc)

also to make a game more interesing and fair, the enemy could capture it and cause some meyhem on the tau....this gives both players some fun!

you can click the youtube link below to get a better look at the Tau Warhound

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ev_RWeQ2fdY

thanks

Mark





Automatically Appended Next Post:
well guys, it looks like you all have your own opinions about the tau, but if you look at it like this.................a tau warhound!........40k sentinals are operated by 1 pilot, ripley from aliens and the power loader, starwars scout walker, etc..........i like to think there would be an experienced pilot to be incharge of his vehicle and crew. (or may be not in the case of orks and gretchens etc)

also to make a game more interesing and fair, the enemy could capture it and cause some meyhem on the tau....this gives both players some fun!

you can click the youtube link below to get a better look at the Tau Warhound

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ev_RWeQ2fdY

thanks

Mark

Psienesis wrote:From the perspective of someone in the real world, sure, but any good fiction is self-supporting. Things make sense within its own universe... or are supposed to, at any rate.

This is why Buffy does not suddenly stake Edward in Twilight, because there is no Buffy the Vampire Slayer in Twilight.

Harry Potter wasn't branded a sorcerer and blinded with his tongue cut out because the Qunari don't live in the Harry Potter world. Nor were he and his friends risking daemonic possession every time they cast a spell, because that's not how magic functions in the Harry Potter world. Nor did Hermione attempt to Still him, because he's a channeling male, because it's Hogwarts, not the White Tower.

Within the setting of 40K, we're provided (in many cases,not all) how things work and how they function, whether it's Imperial, Tau, Eldar, or Tyranid or whatever. One of the things we do know is how Imperial Titans function (generally speaking), how a Princeps is linked into it, via cables and psychic links, and how he is an integral part of operating the god-machine. So, like I said, it's unlikely that a Princeps would join the cause of the Tau, but not impossible (such as the idea of Chaos-corrupted Grey Knights.... that *is* impossible within the "canon").

The references about different worlds joining make little sense.
And a Titans Princeps and crew turning to chaos, or just decide the Tau Empire isn't impossible, just very improbable.

agnosto wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:The Machine Spirit would sense the intrusion and initiate Self-destruction before they could finish.

And the Tau simply wouldn't have a desire to retro-fit an Imperial Titan. Why would they when they could just built their own with their own technology.

Very valid point, though I'm sure they could bypass the self-destruct somehow. For argument's sake let's say they do it as a proof of concept, digital warfare to hack Titans in the field and turn them against their owners; some sort of viral programming. Wouldn't that cause Mars some fits...

Digital warfare against a Titan's machine spirit is like hacking into a squirrel.

Well, I'm late to the party but...

I don't quite see how Tau would have any problem building a Warhound analogue by themselves.

They already have Battle Suit, which for all intent and purpose, are miniature titans. How much more difficult would it be for them to build a 30 feet tall broadside?

They obviously have a much better understanding of AI then the IoM, so they would either have a better AI in it (so it's actually a remote thing) or none at all. For all the talk of the titan's machine spirit, I have yet to see a novel/book/piece of fluff that shows us what's so good about the Titan's powerful IA - all it ever seems to do is fight against the princept and be an all around nuisance... yes, it does add some personality to the warmachine since it's basically haunted... but from a purely pragmatic point of view, the machine spirit of the titan is a drawback, a flaw, not a boon.

It wouldn't be a Warhound no... but it could easily use the same rule to simulate it.

Kanluwen wrote:
Digital warfare against a Titan's machine spirit is like hacking into a squirrel.

Which can be done now so I imagine they can do it 40000 years in the future...

Tarkand wrote:Well, I'm late to the party but...

I don't quite see how Tau would have any problem building a Warhound analogue by themselves.

They already have Battle Suit, which for all intent and purpose, are miniature titans. How much more difficult would it be for them to build a 30 feet tall broadside?

They obviously have a much better understanding of AI then the IoM, so they would either have a better AI in it (so it's actually a remote thing) or none at all. For all the talk of the titan's machine spirit, I have yet to see a novel/book/piece of fluff that shows us what's so good about the Titan's powerful IA - all it ever seems to do is fight against the princept and be an all around nuisance... yes, it does add some personality to the warmachine since it's basically haunted... but from a purely pragmatic point of view, the machine spirit of the titan is a drawback, a flaw, not a boon.

It wouldn't be a Warhound no... but it could easily use the same rule to simulate it.

Technically easier than power armour or a battlesuit.
The only issue we really have now is power generation + computing power (some material / cost issues) which the Tau wouldn't have.

Ovion wrote:

Tarkand wrote:Well, I'm late to the party but...

I don't quite see how Tau would have any problem building a Warhound analogue by themselves.

They already have Battle Suit, which for all intent and purpose, are miniature titans. How much more difficult would it be for them to build a 30 feet tall broadside?

They obviously have a much better understanding of AI then the IoM, so they would either have a better AI in it (so it's actually a remote thing) or none at all. For all the talk of the titan's machine spirit, I have yet to see a novel/book/piece of fluff that shows us what's so good about the Titan's powerful IA - all it ever seems to do is fight against the princept and be an all around nuisance... yes, it does add some personality to the warmachine since it's basically haunted... but from a purely pragmatic point of view, the machine spirit of the titan is a drawback, a flaw, not a boon.

It wouldn't be a Warhound no... but it could easily use the same rule to simulate it.

Technically easier than power armour or a battlesuit.
The only issue we really have now is power generation + computing power (some material / cost issues) which the Tau wouldn't have.

Based on what assumption?

For all intent and purpose, Drones are more advanced IA than what the IoM can do.

People make a big deal of how that one Land Raider went on by itself and killed a lot of ork during the siege of Rynn's World... but fail to realize that even the lowliest Tau drone do the same during every conflict. The Rynn World Land Raider was a wonder, an exception, it was ancient and it's machine spirit was supposed to be wiser and stronger than other on account of that... Not every Land Raider can do this. Autonomous action from an IoM IA is a big deal... but it's the standard for Tau.

Drones are cheap, unexpensive units... and they do the same stuff the exceptional IoM IA do! The logical conclusion here is that the IoM has nothing on Tau when it comes to computing/AI... not the other way around.

Has for power generation? The Tau can produce enough power generation to get truly epicly sized air craft airborn and flying at incredible speed. I'd wager the power needed to keep a Tau Manta functioning dwarf what's needed to get a warhound functioning.

I meant the Tau wouldn't have the issues with computing power and power gen that we do.

The problems WE HAVE that they WOULDN'T

As in modern humans? Yeah, we'd have those problems.

There's also the fact that in the real world, where the rule of cool don't apply, Titans are just not effective design for a warmachine. They are tall where we try to make our tanks as close to the ground as possible to make for harder target. They are massive and make easy target for air strike, where modern tanks try to be compact to avoid the same problem... and then there's the issue having millions of tons resting on two small 'feet', meaning the Titans would most likely sink through most terrain (tanks are square-ish to better distribute their weight).

Aside for the rule of cool and the game rules (Walker don't react the same way to assault as vehicle do), there is no reason to design a weapon platform that stands on two legs when you have Anti-Grav/Skimmer technology available... and the Tau do.

We don't have walkers because we can't figure out how to make the machine balance itself.

Walking tanks would be a major advantage in our modern conflicts as they would be better at navigating rough terrain then a tank could.


The massive profile is mitigated by the super advanced armor platings and void shields. Walking vehicles would be tougher to get a fix on because of the way they move. a tank has fairly predictable movements and some major limitations, a walking vehicle would not have those.

Titans are designed for frontal assaults and all out battles, something which warfare on Earth hasn't been since WW2. There really hasn't been a proper knock down drag em out war since that time. All conflicts have been relativly small, overhyped, skirmishes. All warfare since that time has become small time skirmishes between forces that last short periods before one side withdraws.

There is no such thing as guerilla warfare in the 41st millenium, at least not how we know it. If the Imperium is getting hit by skirmishers they simply obliterate every living thing in the area, problem solved.


So Titans may seem stupid compared to the current conflicts but if you are talking about a proper full scale war then they become practical.

Grey Templar wrote:We don't have walkers because we can't figure out how to make the machine balance itself.

Walking tanks would be a major advantage in our modern conflicts as they would be better at navigating rough terrain then a tank could.


The massive profile is mitigated by the super advanced armor platings and void shields. Walking vehicles would be tougher to get a fix on because of the way they move. a tank has fairly predictable movements and some major limitations, a walking vehicle would not have those.

Titans are designed for frontal assaults and all out battles, something which warfare on Earth hasn't been since WW2. There really hasn't been a proper knock down drag em out war since that time. All conflicts have been relativly small, overhyped, skirmishes. All warfare since that time has become small time skirmishes between forces that last short periods before one side withdraws.

There is no such thing as guerilla warfare in the 41st millenium, at least not how we know it. If the Imperium is getting hit by skirmishers they simply obliterate every living thing in the area, problem solved.


So Titans may seem stupid compared to the current conflicts but if you are talking about a proper full scale war then they become practical.

Careful there, I never said Walkers would be bad, I said Titans would.

There's a huge difference between something like a sentinel (which could actually be quite useful in modern war theatre) and a 50 feet tall, 200 tons Warhound...

If we could get something like Void Shields then I think a 50ft tall walking machine of doom would be viable. Height would give it a LoS advantage.

And when you think about it, 50ft isn't all that tall. You can still hide fairly well in the fold of the landscape and trees would still hide you.

True, you are vulnerable to aircraft but, then again, so are tanks.

Grey Templar wrote:If we could get something like Void Shields then I think a 50ft tall walking machine of doom would be viable. Height would give it a LoS advantage.

And when you think about it, 50ft isn't all that tall. You can still hide fairly well in the fold of the landscape and trees would still hide you.

True, you are vulnerable to aircraft but, then again, so are tanks.

Large height giving you LOS (and thus giving LOS to you) isn't advantage, it's massive disadvantage in real world. There's a reason all military vehicles have very low profile.
Large two-legged walkers just aren't "realistic" (as in internally consistent) because pretty much every thing you can think of that would make them usable, makes superheavy tanks just plain better.
Problems with the armoring the very large frontal surface area, unable to slope it to maximise armor effectiviness, losing single leg making you fall, other balance issues in difficult terrain etc. Walkers do have some advantages, but most of them only apply to multi-legged ones.

Tl;dr:
When playing Mechwarrior or 40k, just take for granted that "Large two-legged walkers are superior to conventional vehicles". There aren't any good (as in internally consistent) reasons why this is true, but thinking about it will just make your head hurt.

Grey Templar wrote:If we could get something like Void Shields then I think a 50ft tall walking machine of doom would be viable. Height would give it a LoS advantage.

And when you think about it, 50ft isn't all that tall. You can still hide fairly well in the fold of the landscape and trees would still hide you.

True, you are vulnerable to aircraft but, then again, so are tanks.

Yea, but you could put those void shields into a tank which would have an easier time of hiding behind terrain due to it's lower profile.

Or in the Tau's case you could put it into a hover tank which could drop down low behind terrain when necessary but lift itself above the terrain as required.


In short, Tau technology as it is, makes titans redundant so the idea of the Tau investing major coin in design, development and production is somewhat flawed.

On the other hand, there are a lot of story based reasons that a handful of Titan class walkers or walkers with Hammerhead level armour and armament might show up in a limited manner.

The real world is full of tales of oddball military technologies that made it to the battlefield when they really shouldn't have.

If the battle cannon is equal to a modern tank shot, then trying.to smash in even a Warhound is no small feat.

Personally, I would MUCH rather see a large battlesuit style titan from the Tau instead of a warhound they scavenged.

Orks? totally. loot that gak.

Tau? its almost beneath them to try and make that happen.

being that walkers aren't exactly their style either (sans battlesuits) I'd imagine this type of weapon from them would be more akin to a skimmer. but not always.

mmm a comperable knight class titan battlesuit would be pretty epic!

MAN I wish I had more time to make stuff!

I've thought that the Broadside scaled up to being a true walker, would make sense for the Tau.

Would also get rid of pesky need to stay still to shoot.