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i've got a warhound that i want to incorperate into my tau army

should i just use the stock weapons/rules and pretend the tau reversed engineered a warhound and built their own?

or make some new rules for it?

i was thinking for example replacing the laser destructor with a heavy twinlinked railgun (like those on the tigershark ax )
but i mean if i'm going to replace one thing i should replace all of them (all the weapons anyway) but i can't think of what to do for the other 2 weapons (the flamer i'd keep the same as the tau use flamethrowers )

just use it as a Tau Allied human warhound, so you dont abuse a wonderful forgeworld model with alot of modifications, unless you want to do that.

The Tau empire has many planets with humans that fight alongside their forces, so no real reason to modifiy it, just give it a cool Tau-ish paint scheme.

Some Titan fluff, along with Iron Men; http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=201870

Just remember that the Tau can probably find a Titan fairly easily if they were looking for one, and I wouldn't put it past them to coax its AI out of huddled madness and fear with some drones.

If you go with the 'We found it and drone'd it" route, giving it Ld7 and some morale rules could be.... interesting

chrisrawr wrote:Some Titan fluff, along with Iron Men; http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=201870

Just remember that the Tau can probably find a Titan fairly easily if they were looking for one, and I wouldn't put it past them to coax its AI out of huddled madness and fear with some drones.

If you go with the 'We found it and drone'd it" route, giving it Ld7 and some morale rules could be.... interesting

Well, Titan's comptuers are big enough/have enough room to be upgraded that multiple drone AIs could be netwroked together a la the Geth from Mass Effect, essentially making it smarter with each drone AI that gets added. And with all the room inside of a warhound...

I'd recommend removing all the rivets and such, and try to "streamline" it a bit (if it's unnecessary, it goes). Somehtign that MIGHT work si that you could say the original head was ejected, and cut up a Devilfish to use for the new "head", even add some small weapons to it or some cool sensor arrays (like take the tops of the burst cannon/SMS turrets, add upside-down battlesuit heads or the sensors form Land Raider sponsons, then add some Tau-ish antennae to them)

hmmm ok makes sense

ok then next question!

what do you think the pilots would look like?
air caste?
fire caste?
earth caste?

i was thinking i could use either air case pilots from forge world models (the various planes or the orca etc etc )
or pirahna pilots..and ifi use pirahna pilots i can use the tank commander from forge world and various vehicles (devilfish, hammerhead etc etc ) aswell

Kepora wrote:

chrisrawr wrote:Some Titan fluff, along with Iron Men; http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=201870

Just remember that the Tau can probably find a Titan fairly easily if they were looking for one, and I wouldn't put it past them to coax its AI out of huddled madness and fear with some drones.

If you go with the 'We found it and drone'd it" route, giving it Ld7 and some morale rules could be.... interesting

Well, Titan's comptuers are big enough/have enough room to be upgraded that multiple drone AIs could be netwroked together a la the Geth from Mass Effect, essentially making it smarter with each drone AI that gets added. And with all the room inside of a warhound...

I'd recommend removing all the rivets and such, and try to "streamline" it a bit (if it's unnecessary, it goes). Somehtign that MIGHT work si that you could say the original head was ejected, and cut up a Devilfish to use for the new "head", even add some small weapons to it or some cool sensor arrays (like take the tops of the burst cannon/SMS turrets, add upside-down battlesuit heads or the sensors form Land Raider sponsons, then add some Tau-ish antennae to them)

i like the original head though :c
maybe add some tau antena errays though...
oh oh oh oh!!! ,make a warhound sized antenna like on the heads of the battlesuits! and then a shoulder guard like on the fire warriors, add in a jumbo sized bonding knife and GUESS WHO THE NEW KID ON THE BLOCK IS!

This is an awful idea.

Coolyo294 wrote:This is an awful idea.

which idea? there are several ideas portrayed in the thread D: be more specific D:

homsikpanda wrote:

Coolyo294 wrote:This is an awful idea.

which idea? there are several ideas portrayed in the thread D: be more specific D:

The idea of the Tau using a Warhound.

Coolyo294 wrote:

homsikpanda wrote:

Coolyo294 wrote:This is an awful idea.

which idea? there are several ideas portrayed in the thread D: be more specific D:

The idea of the Tau using a Warhound.

"This is an awful idea" isn't exactly the most constructive thing to say, though. Quite rude, even. And there's nothing wrong with it, especially if said machine's owners turned rather than it being taken forcefully. There could be a lot of technology the Tau could glean from a working, intact Warhound.

Kepora wrote:

Coolyo294 wrote:

homsikpanda wrote:

Coolyo294 wrote:This is an awful idea.

which idea? there are several ideas portrayed in the thread D: be more specific D:

The idea of the Tau using a Warhound.

"This is an awful idea" isn't exactly the most constructive thing to say, though. Quite rude, even. And there's nothing wrong with it, especially if said machine's owners turned rather than it being taken forcefully. There could be a lot of technology the Tau could glean from a working, intact Warhound.

I have to say that, while the statement was a bit poorly worded, I agree with it. Tau using a Warhound is a horribly transparent attempt to justify having a cool model. Just play with it, but don't try to make up an excuse, because any excuse will feel horribly forced.

problem of the horrible excuse solved!
it's a Gue'vesa warhound captured during the third expanse on the western fringes, requiring massive ammounts of repair as it was actually found destroyed and missing parts D:...and had a dead ripper inside it clinging to what was left of the pilots dead face. possibly taken down during a last days of a defence against an encrouching nid invasion. thru much assistance from the gue'vesa tech priests, and a few modifcations and a new paint job, the tau warhound* was born!

(*i'm renaming it to something fishy to fit with the traditional tau naming, as soon as a i figure out a cool fish name for a giant prehistoric killing machine )

homsikpanda wrote:problem of the horrible excuse solved!
it's a Gue'vesa warhound captured during the third expanse on the western fringes, requiring massive ammounts of repair as it was actually found destroyed and missing parts D:...and had a dead ripper inside it clinging to what was left of the pilots dead face. possibly taken down during a last days of a defence against an encrouching nid invasion. thru much assistance from the gue'vesa tech priests, and a few modifcations and a new paint job, the tau warhound* was born!

(*i'm renaming it to something fishy to fit with the traditional tau naming, as soon as a i figure out a cool fish name for a giant prehistoric killing machine )

Pleisiosaur?

if its a Tau refurbished Warhound, just call it a Kroothound.

Just do it but make sure it looks good

BeRzErKeR wrote:

homsikpanda wrote:problem of the horrible excuse solved!
it's a Gue'vesa warhound captured during the third expanse on the western fringes, requiring massive ammounts of repair as it was actually found destroyed and missing parts D:...and had a dead ripper inside it clinging to what was left of the pilots dead face. possibly taken down during a last days of a defence against an encrouching nid invasion. thru much assistance from the gue'vesa tech priests, and a few modifcations and a new paint job, the tau warhound* was born!

(*i'm renaming it to something fishy to fit with the traditional tau naming, as soon as a i figure out a cool fish name for a giant prehistoric killing machine )

Pleisiosaur?

hmmm-wikis-....
ooo i could name it kronos! after the kronosaurs!
thx! n.n
i shall name it the "Tau Kronos Titan!"
(yes i'm making a greek mythology reference here aswell xD )(<Cronus )

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:if its a Tau refurbished Warhound, just call it a Kroothound.

ewwww!!! D: i hate kroot, they smell funny :c...and oddly like ork

commisar rhodes wrote:Just do it but make sure it looks good

which returns me back to my previous question, should i use air cast or fire caste models for the pilot?

i was thinking maybe using a fire caste for the commander (replacing the human commander with a salvaged pirahna pilot) and keep the 2 gue'vesa and maybe add in another fire caste or 2 in the interior, or should i add air caste ground crew in the interior? since they look more...crewy..ish... if you know what i mean,
they're holding tools and stuff!!! (>@.@)>

The pilots, bar the commander, could be replaces with drones. This is becaise on Titans, the pilots "jack in" and must be altered to have the lastest hardware from AdMech.com. As I am sure an average Air Caste pilot doesn't have a Dell internal premium processor, drones would fit.much better

I think the machine spirit would have to be completely ripped out in order for the Tau to use a Titan, honestly. Because, well. . . the machine-spirits of Titans are often described as being practically sentient, and requiring a very powerful mind which has a very specific kind of psychic potential in order to control them. The Tau probably wouldn't have that, so trying to jack either a Tau or a drone into a functioning Titan machine-spirit would probably get you a mind-raped Tau (or fried drone) and an angry Titan on the rampage.

Rather, the control system and machine spirit/AI would have been entirely torn out and replaced with electronic controls.

Deadshot wrote:The pilots, bar the commander, could be replaces with drones. This is becaise on Titans, the pilots "jack in" and must be altered to have the lastest hardware from AdMech.com. As I am sure an average Air Caste pilot doesn't have a Dell internal premium processor, drones would fit.much better

well i'm honestly more thinking of how i'm going to do it visually, it makes sense to have drones but trying to put drones in inplace of the existing models in the pilot seat is going to be hard D:


which is why i was thinking of having just a tau commander (replacing the commander ) and keeping the 2 human pilots and just list them as gue'vesas, i might use drones in the interior section but i think it'd look silly having a floating drone in the internals (makes sense i just dislike the look of the floating base in this instance) but yeah, just trying to make the modeling easy, replacing the entire cockpit with drones would just be an EXTREME headache D:

BeRzErKeR wrote:I think the machine spirit would have to be completely ripped out in order for the Tau to use a Titan, honestly. Because, well. . . the machine-spirits of Titans are often described as being practically sentient, and requiring a very powerful mind which has a very specific kind of psychic potential in order to control them. The Tau probably wouldn't have that, so trying to jack either a Tau or a drone into a functioning Titan machine-spirit would probably get you a mind-raped Tau (or fried drone) and an angry Titan on the rampage.

Rather, the control system and machine spirit/AI would have been entirely torn out and replaced with electronic controls.

i always thought "machine-spirits" were just really basic AI's (or less) steeped in superstition by a race that doesn't even fully understand it's own technology, and figured that the tau, being so familiar with computers and technology would be able to hack/upgrade a "machine spirit" for their own use/purpose, (like converting a mac to run windows or something )
also see previous comment concerning gue'vesas, those could help pilot it

All imperial vehicles has a a machine spirit. A fraction of the Omnissiah. Just some, like Land Raiders and Stormravens are capable.of taking over things, it is still just a computer. On Titans however, the MS is fully aware and Titans could almost be sentient.

Deadshot wrote:All imperial vehicles has a a machine spirit. A fraction of the Omnissiah. Just some, like Land Raiders and Stormravens are capable.of taking over things, it is still just a computer. On Titans however, the MS is fully aware and Titans could almost be sentient.

what's an omnissiah? sorry...
and i unno when i think "machine spirit" it just brings to mind the "robo-brains" from the fall-out universe, where they're pretty much a computer but use human brains/organs for the purposes of data storage/transmission...i.e. using nerve endings for sending data the same way a computer uses a fiber opt cable, and using a human/organic brain the same way a computer uses ram/a hard drive

except we understand how the transfer of information works between various components of a computer,
imperial force don't, their understanding is "insert slot A into plug b, push "on" button, and it works..if it doesn't work shoot it till it blows up and order new parts from the tech priests"

the tau on the other hand i feel understand how all of their equipment works and aren't hindered by superstition or the inquisition and can reverse engineer and pick apart something till they understand how it works (like learning how an internal combustion engine works by taking apart your lawn mower and putting it together again )
then they can improve apon it (like adding a super charger to above example of said lawn mower )

THE Omnissiah is the Adeptus Mechanicus Machine God.

Think of a machine spirit as a computer. In a Rhino or Chimera, it would be basic systems. In LRs or SRs, it is an autopilot and targeting arrays.

In Titans, it is a full sentient machine with a personalty and mind.

homsikpanda wrote:

i always thought "machine-spirits" were just really basic AI's (or less) steeped in superstition by a race that doesn't even fully understand it's own technology, and figured that the tau, being so familiar with computers and technology would be able to hack/upgrade a "machine spirit" for their own use/purpose, (like converting a mac to run windows or something )
also see previous comment concerning gue'vesas, those could help pilot it

To answer your question just above first, the Omnissiah is the Machine-God, the focus of worship of the Cult Mechanicus. The Tech-Priests believe that technology is divinely inspired, and that organic beings should evolve towards machines; that is, the augmentation the members of the Adeptus Mechanicus undergo as they rise in rank is a religious duty. Furthermore, the Cult Mechanicus teaches that it's religiously necessary to learn more and more so as to become ever more 'machine-like', which sort of puts paid to the idea that the Imperium doesn't engage in research and advance their technology; they do, very much. It's just that many advancements are kept secret by the Cult Mechanicus, and only certain people are allowed to use them or know they exist. The Cult Mechanicus, at least the upper ranks of it, understand the technology they use and build very well indeed. Now, as to the machine-spirit. . .

Honestly, nobody knows what the Imperium means by "machine-spirit". In some cases, the assertion crops up that ANY piece of technology has a machine-spirit, which would indicate that it's a religious belief that isn't associated with a particular piece of technology. . . but then we get stories like the piece of fluff where a Land Raider attacks an Ork army alone after its crew has been killed, which makes it quite clear that the 'machine-spirit' of a Land Raider, at least, is both self-directing and capable of long-range planning and tactical thought. That would indicate either a highly advanced AI (of the kind that isn't even theoretically possible to us now), a servitor-like mechanism where a living brain is wired into the machine, or a Warp-based piece of technology that functions in some manner we can't really describe.

Imperial Titans have the most powerful and intelligent machine-spirits of anything in the galaxy. That brings up a couple problems; first, if the Tau brought the Titan at all online while the machine-spirit was still connected, it would almost certainly kill them. Second, interfacing with a machine-spirit requires some kind of psychic ability; so few tech-priests are capable of it that recruiters for the Collegia Titanica scour worlds all over the Imperium for potential candidates. That means that the Tau probably cannot communicate with a Titan; and even if they can find a way around that, it would be speaking/thinking in the sacred machine-code of the Adeptus Mechanicus, which the Tau don't know, and would not know the Tau language. Trying to control it over the mind-machine interface with a non-techpriest would be like trying to compile a Java program with code written in C++; it just wouldn't work, because the instructions would be incomprehensible.

And third, reverse engineering something is HARD. Very, very hard. We don't even have a good analogy for people from two radically different technological backgrounds (like the Tau and the IoM) trying to reverse-engineer each other's technology. It would be like a metallurgist trying to disassemble a lion to figure out how to 'upgrade' one; all of his knowledge and experience is absolutely useless, except in the most tangential of ways. The Tau attempting to hack a machine spirit would. . . struggle. Greatly. Psychic technology is a field of science they don't even have and cannot possibly develop, and organic/technological interfacing is one in which the IoM is far, far ahead of them.

For all those reasons, I think it would be much, much simpler just to say that they found the machine spirit, disconnected it, and totally refitted the Titan with their own controls.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

homsikpanda wrote:

i always thought "machine-spirits" were just really basic AI's (or less) steeped in superstition by a race that doesn't even fully understand it's own technology, and figured that the tau, being so familiar with computers and technology would be able to hack/upgrade a "machine spirit" for their own use/purpose, (like converting a mac to run windows or something )
also see previous comment concerning gue'vesas, those could help pilot it

For all those reasons, I think it would be much, much simpler just to say that they found the machine spirit, disconnected it, and totally refitted the Titan with their own controls.

this was kinda what i was aiming for anyway, i mostly asked about the machine spirit as, not playing the IoM, i'm really not very knowledgable about them, i play nids and tau
but yeah, i don't really need a huge back story as to why they have a titan, the other players in my group aren't too overly concerned about back story as much as just playing and having fun.
i think i am going to stick with replacing the commander with a tau fire/air cast or something, but keep the 2 human pilots in the front row, i wana do some customizing but something that won't take me months to try and complete, and i'll probably toss some tau ground crew into the inside, i can use sticky tac to hold them in place for easy remove during game play if i want, and it looks nicer, as oppose to having a floating drone, and you'd be able to see the sticky-tac thru the clear base D:

anyway! i got it figured out n.n
now to think up a paint job >=|

Relevant post still relevant, especially now that the discussion has moved toward AI and titans; http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/424841.page#3820066

chrisrawr wrote:Relevant post still relevant, especially now that the discussion has moved toward AI and titans; http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/424841.page#3820066

But why do you think the machine-spirit is insane and afraid? More likely, it's perfectly happy; the Adeptus Mechanicus treat their machines far, far better than they do their people. Hell, Titans are revered as demigods. Furthermore, adherence to the laws of the Machine Cult would likely be literally hardwired into it. . . so if the machine spirit was capable of reacting at all, I would think that it would destroy any foul, heretical xenos-machine that tried to sway it from the True Path of the Omnissiah.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

chrisrawr wrote:Relevant post still relevant, especially now that the discussion has moved toward AI and titans; http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/424841.page#3820066

But why do you think the machine-spirit is insane and afraid? More likely, it's perfectly happy; the Adeptus Mechanicus treat their machines far, far better than they do their people. Hell, Titans are revered as demigods. Furthermore, adherence to the laws of the Machine Cult would likely be literally hardwired into it. . . so if the machine spirit was capable of reacting at all, I would think that it would destroy any foul, heretical xenos-machine that tried to sway it from the True Path of the Omnissiah.

<.<.....>.>......-tosses emp grenade next to the main computer-
I FIXED IT!

BeRzErKeR wrote:

chrisrawr wrote:Relevant post still relevant, especially now that the discussion has moved toward AI and titans; http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/424841.page#3820066

But why do you think the machine-spirit is insane and afraid? More likely, it's perfectly happy; the Adeptus Mechanicus treat their machines far, far better than they do their people. Hell, Titans are revered as demigods. Furthermore, adherence to the laws of the Machine Cult would likely be literally hardwired into it. . . so if the machine spirit was capable of reacting at all, I would think that it would destroy any foul, heretical xenos-machine that tried to sway it from the True Path of the Omnissiah.

Not the machine spirit - those are placed in the biologically adapted titans. I'm talking about an Ironman A.I. - a True Titan from the DAoM.

If the Tau had a Warhound it would only be operable by a Gue'vesa with no modifications to the Titan.

Titans are practically sentient. its Machine spirit would likely self-destruct or render the titan unusable if the Tau attempted to modify it.



Titans also don't fit in with the Tau method of Warfare. It can't perform Kayun maneuvers and its a little obvious for a Mont'ka hammer blow.

Grey Templar wrote:If the Tau had a Warhound it would only be operable by a Gue'vesa with no modifications to the Titan.

Titans are practically sentient. its Machine spirit would likely self-destruct or render the titan unusable if the Tau attempted to modify it.



Titans also don't fit in with the Tau method of Warfare. It can't perform Kayun maneuvers and its a little obvious for a Mont'ka hammer blow.

That might work; but you'd have to find a Gue'vesa who was mentally tough enough to survive linking to the Titan, had the force of will to command it, and also had the presence of mind to LIE to it when mentally connected; if the machine spirit figured out that it being used against the Imperium by alien hereteks like the Tau, it'd probably run mad.

yup, its alltogether inconcevable.