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Just to chuck some crunchy TT Initiative numbers in. From C:GK [only bought it because I couldn't believe that it was as bad as folks were saying - it is and more...]:-

I4 Regular GK and some of the higher ones;

I5 Most of the higher GKs (though some are only I4);

I6 Only Crowe, no GK higher In than this; Death Cult Assassin (not particularly augmented, if at all);

I7 Imperial Assassin (augmented to the hilt).

Much as breathless SM gushing has always really got my goat, I see this as one of those balance/nerf to sell more SM models things, where SMs really should have much higher In. I've come across this in the fluff over the years (but couldn't begin to point to a source) where the SM tweaked chemistry, loss of some of the higher brain functions to free up battle processing power, getting slow thought out of the way of fast hindbrain action, plus constant training/muscle memory, and the handy info (including auto targeting link to the weapon for accurate instinctive fire from the hip etc) in the helm's HUD, all make for fast fast fast SMs.

That said, if a Flesh Tearer was lost in tearing out a screaming innocent and loyal Guardsman's throat with his teeth (again) in his dark battle lust, then I doubt that the LC would have much trouble getting the drop on him with his Plasma Pistol, or in defending his action, "Seemed pretty obviously Khorne to me - better to be safe than sorry eh? Better that a thousand innocent folks are killed than that a single guilty man goes unpurged and all that - especially where the Ruinous Powers are concerned, eh?"

EDIT: Investigating Inquisitor adds this to the list of complaints made by righteous and worthy Imperial warriors against the Flesh Tearers, thanks the LC for the information and his action, and moves that Chapter up another notch in investigation priority.

Just an example of a scenario where the OP's question isn't an auto-lol (which it never was to begin with).

The origin of the source is probably the "issue". They also change their average height anywhere between 7 and 11 feet depending entirely on what you're reading.

For what it's worth, they have constantly been getting better in GW's books to go along with the hype - both in stats and in fluff capabilities. Anyone remember their original Rogue Trader version?

Melissia wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:p.s. Marines have faster reaction time than humans

Again, they don't. There are no biological enhancements that increase a marine's reaction time.

To play the devils advocate, how do you know that there are no enhancements? Where has it been said that there are no enhancements to reaction time? Also, if a marines senses become sharper, then it can be assumed that he can notice things quicker, thus giving him more time to react.

Ignatius wrote:how do you know that there are no enhancements? Where has it been said that there are no enhancements to reaction time?

... in the codex and any article about the creation of the space marines.

Each of the implants has a described purpose and effect. None of them increase speed, agility, or reaction time (even the black carapace really only acts as a neural uplink to the armor, something that is not unique to Astartes as the Mechanicus uses such regularly, as does the Inquisition and likely the Sisters as well to some extent-- even commoners have cybernetic plugs that can be used in a similar way, though they aren't as efficient as the professional models used by the aforementioned organizations).

Cybernetic implants can be (and are) given to humans as well, so those don't count. Hypnotherapy can be (and is) given to humans as well, so that doesn't count. Effective training can be (and is) given to humans as well, so that doesn't count. And so on and so forth. The genetic implants do not have this effect.

Ignatius wrote:Also, if a marines senses become sharper, then it can be assumed that he can notice things quicker, thus giving him more time to react.

No it can't. It just means he notices things that others wouldn't-- such as hearing at higher or lower frequencies (much like a cat notices frequencies higher than humans can hear so the cat can hunt mice that give off such frequencies), or seeing in to spectra that humans don't (such as in to the infrared and ultraviolet senses), or smelling things that humans wouldn't normally smell (like a bloodhound).

Ignatius wrote:

Melissia wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:p.s. Marines have faster reaction time than humans

Again, they don't. There are no biological enhancements that increase a marine's reaction time.

To play the devils advocate, how do you know that there are no enhancements? Where has it been said that there are no enhancements to reaction time? Also, if a marines senses become sharper, then it can be assumed that he can notice things quicker, thus giving him more time to react.

An untested Scout has I 4. A veterean Guardsmen has I 4. I think the Biscopea increases fast twitch muscle fibres in the marine and the Catalepsean Node which completely reworks how a humans brain is wired increases his reaction time.

The scout has received hypnotherapy to reduce his reaction time, the guardsman has not.

But the guardsman COULD receive it if it was believed that doing so would be worth the effort. It is not unique to Marines.

The Biscopea merely increases muscle growth and provides hormones for later implants. The Catalepsean node allows the marine to stay awake longer without detrimental effects.

Neither of them reduce reaction time.


edit: as a side note, I need to stop saying "increase reaction time", as that's slowing down, not speeding up.

It doesn't say anywhere that hypnotherapy increases (err, decreases) reaction time. That's just your theory.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:It doesn't say anywhere that hypnotherapy increases (err, decreases) reaction time. That's just your theory.

Then Marines don't have reduced reaction time and are about equivalent to any combat veteran.

Melissia wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:It doesn't say anywhere that hypnotherapy increases (err, decreases) reaction time. That's just your theory.

Then Marines don't have reduced reaction time and are about equivalent to any combat veteran.

But a veteran marine has even greater reaction time. And a legendary one like a Captain even better.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:But a veteran marine has even greater reaction time.

Due to combat experience. A human living the same amount of time with combat experience the entire time would also have increased reaction time. Marines who live long enough to become true marine veterans have more experience in combat than the average guardsman-- two or so centuries of service I believe is normal before they're considered veterans.

Ciaphas Cain had at least a century of service and was able to duel marines to the point where he toyed and played with them, defeating them with contemptuous ease. Gaunt also killed a marine without injury in close combat though his experience was, I believe, somewhat shorter than Cain's.

Commissars who live long enough to become lord commissars are roughly equivalent to captains in terms of skill in combat experience, with few exceptions.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:But a veteran marine has even greater reaction time. And a legendary one like a Captain even better.

Because they live longer and are even more adapted to war, perhaps? The average Scout has probably indeed received a lot more training and experience than your average non-veteran Guardsman. And this is not even touching upon the fact that the average Marine Chapter recruits from Feral Worlds, whose inhabitants may well sport an increased reaction due to their tribal and dangerous lifestyle.

Of course, if you really want to believe this, I guess it's just as possible that the Marine creation process does increase reaction time and it merely doesn't say.

As with most 40k fluff, there will be lots of room for interpretations.

(and this topic reminds me that I'm still angry at Ward for downgrading the Seraphim' initiative)

He did? I'm sorry, I didn't notice because nobody here uses the fifth edition pseudo-codex and I've repressed all memory of it.

Lynata: Most probably the sources weren't that recent - most likely from somewhere around the time of the 'SMs in Inquisitor' problem or the Movie Space Marines article in WD... which would have been more accurately titled 'Realistic (but we wouldn't sell as many minis) Space Marines'.

I think that even back then it was pretty apparent that realistic (as described) SMs would be 150 Pts each, 5s and 6s across the board on stats, immunity to Ld checks (except anything to do with Chaos corruption or geneseed degeneration where they're Ld ~7 ], three W and carrying an autocannon that can be fired at full effect whether moving or not.

Genuinely awesome (but boring like Superman, for similar reason). And like Superman, most of the (lazy and poor) writers can only create a plot with some 'drama' and 'tension' in it by making the SMs (literally) incredibly gullible and naïve, personality-less, oafish kill-bots (no shortage of sources for this claim! See HH and the WTF?!!! Blood Angels omnibus...]

From there we can deduce that they've obviously had their higher brain functions reduced, and deduce from that that this frees up processing power for other things. In combat (and martial arts and sports and many things) the higher brain functions (plus things like mercy and dread) slow things down and get in the way - reduce them and the animal hind-brain can act freely and without impediment; animals are fast reflex-engines, as SMs will likely be for the same reasons (plus slick devices built into the helm and weapon to also speed things up, just as the latest gen fighters speed things up in how they gather and present data to the pilot).

[For my money, the balance isn't quite so skewed. In battle they probably are in something like bullet-time compared to regular humies... can't dodge bullets fired from close up obviously but more like a Jedi they can react to the first signs of an attack before it happens, or muzzle flashes whilst the projectile is still quite close to the muzzle (and therefore still a second or two from hitting) etc. But they also are superb tacticians (like all SOF) with eidetic memories and encyclopaedic knowledge. Isn't too hard to monkey with the brain (which is pretty much a collection of different brains already, just about linked together) to let a SM switch bits on and off in different modes.

Sure I've read similar claims over the years....

Anyroad, I'm usually the last to add to the nauseating and counter-productive 'SMs can do anything!' noise, but credit where credit's due... and one of the reasons why I'm writing my tale is as a tool to present realistic-awesome SMs that are also engaging characters, so that like-minded folks can stop rolling our eyes at this great setting's principle icon (they're not in the tale much, as it should be).]

EDIT: Melissia, I think the point is that regular humies can benefit from all these things here and there, as circumstances allow. But SMs get them all as a standard package - which is where synergy comes in.

And yeah, what was done to my lovely Seraphim! Not just the In. I'd be really peeved if I still played 40k - luckily the studio knocked that on the head as an option for me a long time ago.

I agree with you there Melissia. No one uses the white dwarf crapdex in my area either. And there are a couple of sob players.

So whats everyones openion. A LC cannot execute a marine. Unless hes a psycho like the flesh tearers or even Blood Angels (red thirst and black rage).

And if he did he could execute on quite easily. Due to superior training and skills. Plus access to Plasma and power weapons.

tsz52 wrote:most likely from somewhere around the time of the 'SMs in Inquisitor' problem

It's not from there, either. I would have noticed. Maybe some Black Library novel? Some of their writers do like to come up with stuff like that from time to time.

tsz52 wrote:or the Movie Space Marines article in WD... which would have been more accurately titled 'Realistic (but we wouldn't sell as many minis) Space Marines'.

That article has, in fact, clearly and unmistakenly made a point of being deliberately unrealistic and exaggerated. Just in case the title didn't already gave it away.

It's funny how often I see this article being pulled as a source for how Space Marines "really" are. People should actually read it.

Generally, I have noticed a vastly inflated perception of "Astartes Awesomeness" that is in conflict with what GW themselves have released, regardless of whether that was in some rulebook or WD. Of course, 40k not having any concept of canon, such an interpretation isn't "wrong", but neither should it be presented as "right". It remains an opinion.

Melissia wrote:[...] and I've repressed all memory of it.

I think I can relate, at least concerning certain details.

And if you remove the higher processing centers of the brain, wouldnt that make the space marine more stupid and have less of a personality then an average human?

Shush, we all know lobotomy makes for loyal and faithful servants.

Loyal and faithfull sure. Have a personality, not so much.

Lynata: My Inquisitor Rulebook is as burried amongst my boxes of books as anything's ever been burried... what was a SM's Initiative (equivalent) in that game, in relation to regular folks'.

Re the WD article, I did read and comprehend it honest. Point is that the whole 'Hollywood this and that' was actually a dodge to avoid having to explain the artificially inflated numbers of nerfed SMs in the lists. Convert the categorical statements made about SMs into 40k TT and that really is what you end up with:-

One SM worth 10 Guardsmen;

Bolter can take out medium armoured vehicles without much trouble and one-shot any mook;

Can keep fighting on with a heart blown out;

Hundreds of standard infantry shots bounce like rain off Astartes power armour.

You also see this where SMs (as described officially) are ported over to other games systems. Used to come up all the time on the old Infinity forums: Your SM army converted into Infinity is a single model with the performance of a TAG.

Gah... sounding like a rabid SM fanboy*, but just trying to objectively reconcile claims, as always.

*I aspire to be an Ultramarine when I grow up.

EDIT: But by the same token of realism there should also be a rule that you may only play as SMs once every thousand battles....

Dunno about Inquisitor, too lazy to go fetch that one... but in Deathwatch, the agility (equivalent to initiative in most senses) of a Space Marine isn't any different than a human's.

tsz52 wrote:Lynata: My Inquisitor Rulebook is as burried amongst my boxes of books as anything's ever been burried... what was a SM's Initiative (equivalent) in that game, in relation to regular folks'.

It's available on GW's website under "Inquisitor Resources", too. But here's a few numbers taken from the characters section:

Preacher = Initiative 40
Veteran Guardsman = Initiative 55
Desperado = Initiative 65
Enforcer = Initiative 65
Acolyte = Initiative 70
Inquisitor = Initiative 80
Space Marine = Initiative 85
Lord Inquisitor = 90
Death Cultist = 90
Officio Assassinorum Operative = 95

Sadly, no Commissar - but as you can see, the differences need not be that big.

tsz52 wrote:Re the WD article, I did read and comprehend it honest. Point is that the whole 'Hollywood this and that' was actually a dodge to avoid having to explain the artificially inflated numbers of nerfed SMs in the lists.

No, the point was to give peoples rules for playing the Space Marines in the artificially inflated epic proportions of various heroic novels.

You're well within your right to believe that novel Marines are the better Marines compared to the somewhat "less epic" approach GW has taken, but the article was rather clear on its take on the setting.

tsz52 wrote:One SM worth 10 Guardsmen

Which I've always taken as applying to their tactical and strategic value, not some sort of gladiatorial combat. And even in a 1:1 I can see a Guardsman coming out on top if you just give him a plasma gun. The Marines employ different tactics than the Guard, however, relying on speedy deployment and "shock and awe", the kind of which most Munitorum regiments (possibly with exception of the Storm Trooper regiment) do not possess the capabilities for. This is where they excel. Not in line combat against IG.

tsz52 wrote:Bolter can take out medium armoured vehicles without much trouble and one-shot any mook

Guard have bolters, too. The "problem" with the Movie Marines list is that it applies this only to one side.

tsz52 wrote:Hundreds of standard infantry shots bounce like rain off Astartes power armour.

Incorrect as per Codex: Angels of Death.

tsz52 wrote:You also see this where SMs (as described officially) are ported over to other games systems.

I'm assuming you are referring to FFG's crazy Deathwatch RPG. When we're looking at GW's own Inquisitor, they suddenly become a lot more vulnerable. Still way tougher than any human, but quite killable still.

Also, I doubt Space Marines have "stunt doubles" as they did in the MM army list.

Actually FFG's deathwatch roleplaying game even toned down their own stats because they admitted they went over the top and their original stats weren't fluffy.

Which still puts them above GW's tabletop game.

Lynata wrote:

tsz52 wrote:One SM worth 10 Guardsmen

Which I've always taken as applying to their tactical and strategic value, not some sort of gladiatorial combat. And even in a 1:1 I can see a Guardsman coming out on top if you just give him a plasma gun. The Marines employ different tactics than the Guard, however, relying on speedy deployment and "shock and awe", the kind of which most Munitorum regiments (possibly with exception of the Storm Trooper regiment) do not possess the capabilities for. This is where they excel. Not in line combat against IG.

Let me preface this by saying; I agree. Space Marines are shock troopers and psychological weapons, not line fighters; or rather they SHOULD be, by all the descriptions we're given.

The problem is that there's a ton of GW official fluff which, if it was written by anyone else, would get written off as 'Marine-spank' and viciously scorned. The Battle of Corinth; Marneus Calgar stands in a breach in the wall and holds off an entire Ork Waaagh for 24 hours solid. Or Kayvaan Shrike getting trapped behind enemy lines for THREE YEARS with no resupply and only a single squad, and doing so much damage as to shorten the campaign by decades. Or Lysander fighting his way clear of the Iron Warriors' fortress unarmed.

So, basically, official GW position DOES appear to be that Space Marines are all that and a bag of chips. Which is sad, really, but there it is. There is, in fact, a solid core of fluff support for very nearly any set of stats someone wants to give Space Marines, including the Movie Marine stats (leaving out the 'Stunt Doubles' rule). That's one reason so many people dislike them so much.

Lynata wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:But a veteran marine has even greater reaction time. And a legendary one like a Captain even better.

Because they live longer and are even more adapted to war, perhaps? The average Scout has probably indeed received a lot more training and experience than your average non-veteran Guardsman. And this is not even touching upon the fact that the average Marine Chapter recruits from Feral Worlds, whose inhabitants may well sport an increased reaction due to their tribal and dangerous lifestyle.

Of course, if you really want to believe this, I guess it's just as possible that the Marine creation process does increase reaction time and it merely doesn't say.

As with most 40k fluff, there will be lots of room for interpretations.

(and this topic reminds me that I'm still angry at Ward for downgrading the Seraphim' initiative)

Of course it's open to interpretation. These scouts who we are assuming are well trained still only have WS 3 and BS 3. This would indicate they have the same amount of combat experiance as a typical guardsmen yet have I 4. Basically, marines come out of the box with I 4.
An untrained human has WS2 and BS 2 yet keeps his I 3. That is because I3, S3 and T3 is the human baseline. I 4 is as slow as a marine gets. That's the starting point.

tsz52 wrote:The problem is that there's a ton of GW official fluff which, if it was written by anyone else, would get written off as 'Marine-spank' and viciously scorned. [...]

You have a point, but most armies in 40k have accomplished something along the same lines, which is why I tend to prefer the "larger picture" instead of looking at exceptional and unique legendary accomplishments.

For example, just because Straken strangled a Chaos Space Marine Lord with his bare hands (well, he used a vine) doesn't mean that I think Veteran Guardsmen need to have S5 across the board for "accurate portrayal".

If you apply something like the Movie Marines list, you get into conflict with loads of other fluff - such as Sisters of Battle being supposed to keep the Marines in check, and actually successfully purging them if need be. How would they manage to do that if you give them statlines like in some heroic novel? If you go about judging an army by some heroic tales in their Codex, at least do it for everyone. But I for one have a feeling this would only get you back to where you started.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Of course it's open to interpretation. These scouts who we are assuming are well trained still only have WS 3 and BS 3. This would indicate they have the same amount of combat experiance as a typical guardsmen yet have I 4.

Then apply the Feral Worlder background. Or that a Scout's experience is different than that of your average Guardsman. Or that a Scout is better able to deal with combat stress, prolonged warfare and the weight of his equipment than your average IG trooper.

It still boils down to personal preferences.

*Squirming a bit in embarrassment... I've never even liked or played as SMs....*

Lynata: Cheers for the list of Initiatives. From that we can see, that SM In is much nearer to Assassin than it is to regular or Vet humie. Rounded on 40k TT to I5 or I6?

I'm more interested in the model of how SMs actually work presented by 'Movie Marines' than by what its stated aim or title happened to be... 'death of the author' and all that (the author doesn't have a privileged reading of his/her text - in this case... not that I'm a Postmodernist **** or anything...).

That model squares better with most (but not all, given that it's 40k and GW) of the fluff I've read (most from a while ago) about SMs. SMs matured as a concept, not the original ones.

I always strive to be fair and balanced so often take things as read that should really be stated (as it turns out... though this just adds extra length that folks can't be bothered to read): Of course that model doesn't happen in splendid isolation; there's all else being equal involved (your Plasma Gun example) plus everyone else gets uplifted by the same process - SoB BS, power armour and Bolters certainly come along for the ride. And there'd be a Crits system to allow for regular humies to do the extraordinary things (like I mentioned in another thread) mentioned in fluff. We're talking in-setting realism, not shifting units. Narrative realism not streamlined (allegedly) gameplay. Done right, you don't end up anywhere near to where you started.

I didn't mean FFG's Deathwatch (bought all the books but haven't had the heart to read them yet... is it true that DW is no longer the Chamber Militant of Ordo Xenos?... rubbish... rats) but more like the example I used: Converting fluffy SMs into Infinity - it's a pretty stark example of what SMs end up as when shifting units isn't an issue.

[Have you ever checked Infinity by the way? There's a really nice futuristic Jeanne d'Arc over there.]

Neither, it's closer to I4, which is what Inquisitors are in tabletop (Inquisitors AND Inquisitor lords, whom have higher initiative than space marines).

Lynata wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Of course it's open to interpretation. These scouts who we are assuming are well trained still only have WS 3 and BS 3. This would indicate they have the same amount of combat experiance as a typical guardsmen yet have I 4.

Then apply the Feral Worlder background. Or that a Scout's experience is different than that of your average Guardsman. Or that a Scout is better able to deal with combat stress, prolonged warfare and the weight of his equipment than your average IG trooper.

It still boils down to personal preferences.

Not all marines come from feral worlds. Ultramarines come from a "civilized" world. Combat stress, prolonged warfare and the weight of equipment isn't factored in for anybody else so I don't see why it would always be de facto factored in for a SM scout. For example, a scout at the beginning of a campaign doesn't start at I 5 and then go down. A kasrkin wears an ass load of equipment but his initiative doesn't go down.

tsz52 wrote:From that we can see, that SM In is much nearer to Assassin than it is to regular or Vet humie. Rounded on 40k TT to I5 or I6?

I'd probably say I5, same as the Inquisitors, if only to keep the assassins a bit apart from both.
That said, the TT is somewhat more abstracted than the RPGs, so a direct translation may not be possible, or would at least include other factors.

Of course, initiative also only goes so far, and surprise is a factor. If a Marine is aware of the Commissar's intent, he would act first. If not, ...

Oh, here's the stat description, by the way, just for the sake of completeness:

"Initiative is probably the most important characteristic in Inquisitor. It is a combination of many factors, including the character's reaction time, his observational abilities and general dexterity and agility. It is used to determine how quickly a character can act and how much he can do. It is also used for determining if he can react to a sudden threat and how nimble he is at performing physical activities such as jumping and dodging. Initiative is a measure of a character's general ability to perform any physical activity. A normal human would have an initiative of 30 to 40, a trained soldier 50 to 60, whilst a super-fast assassin might have an Initiative of 100 or more."

tsz52 wrote:That model squares better with most (but not all, given that it's 40k and GW) of the fluff I've read (most from a while ago) about SMs.

Naturally, especially once you include the novels. It starts to break down as soon as you read the fluff from the other side, though, which is why I personally tend to dismiss unique exceptions focusing on a single character or unit and try to stick to the hard basics, such as who is said to be the equal to whom, what kind of weapon is meant to hurt who, and how much protection does whose armour actually offer.

If I would go by, say, what is written in the hilariously exaggerated Battle of the Fang story (the Age of Apostasy one), then the Space Wolves should have conquered the Eye of Terror by now. Needless to say, the setting doesn't quite work that way. And this was actual Codex fluff!

But, as Gav Thorpe said on his blog, "none of these interpretations is wrong" and "the fact that each of us is allowed to take possession of that world and envisage it to our own ideal means that it is inevitable our vision will sometimes clash with the vision of others. Such conflict does not render either vision obsolete."

It boils down to what you as an individual prefer. The only truly important thing to keep in mind is that it remains an opinion, and that the opinion of others will be equally valid.

tsz52 wrote:is it true that DW is no longer the Chamber Militant of Ordo Xenos?... rubbish... rats

Yes, at least in FFG's interpretation of the setting. I'm curious to see what GW will do with it. A lot of fans did welcome the change, though, as it meant their awesome gods of war are no longer subordinated to those pesky "mere human" Inquisitors. Given that FFG also waived the usual Chapter limitations that GW mentioned in their WD article, the whole Deathwatch thing just seems to come across as a plot device to allow people to make a team of Marines from any Chapter they like.

Not my kind of thing, but ... again, interpretations and preferences. *shrugs* I'm only saddened by how incompatible that game is to the rest of the franchise. You literally can't play a proper co-op mission that involves both Marines and anyone else, unless you use their broken IWindicare, or are content with "normal humans" tagging along feeling useless. It had potential for so much more.

tsz52 wrote:[Have you ever checked Infinity by the way?

Phew, no - right now we've got a Dark Heresy and a Dragon Age (highly recommendable system!) campaign going. I was thinking of giving the Battletech RPG a try next. >.>

Lynata wrote:I'd probably say I5, same as the Inquisitors

Inquisitors are I4.