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Melissia wrote:

PoisonWood wrote:Astartes Reflexes would far outmatch the humans ability to aim and pull the triger).

Astartes are not that fast or agile. Humans can match their speed and agility.

In power armor even.

Un-enhanced humans probably can't, that's why they're I4, but I am betting Lord Commissars would either have crazy reflexes from intense training, or have some of the augmentations available to men of their stature.

Even with the augmentation though, physically the marine is almost definitely better, skill wise I'd guess they'd be on par.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Melissia wrote:

PoisonWood wrote:Astartes Reflexes would far outmatch the humans ability to aim and pull the triger).

Astartes are not that fast or agile. Humans can match their speed and agility.

In power armor even.

Un-enhanced humans probably can't, that's why they're I4, but I am betting Lord Commissars would either have crazy reflexes from intense training, or have some of the augmentations available to men of their stature.

Even with the augmentation though, physically the marine is almost definitely better, skill wise I'd guess they'd be on par.

I don't really think if the Marine was focused on fighting the Guardsmen around the Commisar, or the enemy. I doubt they would have eyes in the back of their head to see the bolt round coming. Especially in a very loud combat zone.

Lord commisars are better in combat then grunt marines. And the problem is that Lord Commisars should be int 4. Regular commisars and senior officers where. It represents their decades of experience.

purplefood wrote:

Joey wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Joey wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Melissia wrote:

PoisonWood wrote:Astartes Reflexes would far outmatch the humans ability to aim and pull the triger).

Astartes are not that fast or agile. Humans can match their speed and agility.

In power armor even.

Then why are SM described as being faster than most humans?
I get how Inquisitors and the like may have enhancements but a Lord Commissar? They are fairly high ranked but would they be fast enough?

They are initiative 3, so...no.
Weapon skill 5 though so he'd have a good chance of killing the marine with a power fist.

Unless the marine stabbed him in the face first... or he used a power sword...
At any rate you can't use table top stats in a background argument... i think this is what this is...

Yeah but the OP's question was answered in the first or second post.
For some reason people regard Background threads as an excuse to just dump whatever they know about a certain subject.
Even if the marine had a power sword he'd need 3 attacks.

I meant the lord commissar.
Then i remembered at I3 it didn't matter.
Though if the marine also had a power fist they could in theory just nail each other at the same time...

Oh yeah, marine's PF would ID lord commissar, I forgot that.
Still, space marine sargents are renowned for the cowardace in battle.

Joey wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Joey wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Joey wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Melissia wrote:

PoisonWood wrote:Astartes Reflexes would far outmatch the humans ability to aim and pull the triger).

Astartes are not that fast or agile. Humans can match their speed and agility.

In power armor even.

Then why are SM described as being faster than most humans?
I get how Inquisitors and the like may have enhancements but a Lord Commissar? They are fairly high ranked but would they be fast enough?

They are initiative 3, so...no.
Weapon skill 5 though so he'd have a good chance of killing the marine with a power fist.

Unless the marine stabbed him in the face first... or he used a power sword...
At any rate you can't use table top stats in a background argument... i think this is what this is...

Yeah but the OP's question was answered in the first or second post.
For some reason people regard Background threads as an excuse to just dump whatever they know about a certain subject.
Even if the marine had a power sword he'd need 3 attacks.

I meant the lord commissar.
Then i remembered at I3 it didn't matter.
Though if the marine also had a power fist they could in theory just nail each other at the same time...

Oh yeah, marine's PF would ID lord commissar, I forgot that.
Still, space marine sargents are renowned for the cowardace in battle.

They are?
All of mine tend to die before they get a chance to run...

He can try...but he's not gonna live for long, seeing as the other Astartes will shoot him full of bolt rounds. And if he lives, the Inquisition's gonna have his head for antagonizing an Astartes Chapter...especially if the reason is:

1) You don't worship the Emperor as a god.
- the Inquisition is well aware of this, and prefer to look the other way since it keeps the Astartes happy, and it's not worth the effort to try can 'convert' them; try asking the Mechanicum to stop worshiping the Machine God/Omnissiah - similar reaction if you try and convert the Astartes, who venerate the Emperor, and don't believe in gods, regardless of the ranting of the Ecclesiarchy.

2) You retreated.
- Space Marines retreat only if their own commanders tell them to, otherwise they stand and die to the last man. If they do retreat, the Commissariat has no authority over them. It's like a Commissar telling a Canoness/Inquisitor to not purge a chaos cell.

And I don't agree with those people saying a Commissar won't recognize traitor marines. Um, hello? Have you notices the eight-pointed star? The daemonic skull? The horns and symbols that hurt just to look at? Commissars aren't stupid, they're the top graduates of the Schola Progenium, and are one of the few people outside the Inquisition and the Astartes who know of the existence of Chaos Space Marines.

Tadashi wrote:He can try...but he's not gonna live for long, seeing as the other Astartes will shoot him full of bolt rounds. And if he lives, the Inquisition's gonna have his head for antagonizing an Astartes Chapter...especially if the reason is:

1) You don't worship the Emperor as a god.
- the Inquisition is well aware of this, and prefer to look the other way since it keeps the Astartes happy, and it's not worth the effort to try can 'convert' them; try asking the Mechanicum to stop worshiping the Machine God/Omnissiah - similar reaction if you try and convert the Astartes, who venerate the Emperor, and don't believe in gods, regardless of the ranting of the Ecclesiarchy.

2) You retreated.
- Space Marines retreat only if their own commanders tell them to, otherwise they stand and die to the last man. If they do retreat, the Commissariat has no authority over them. It's like a Commissar telling a Canoness/Inquisitor to not purge a chaos cell.

And I don't agree with those people saying a Commissar won't recognize traitor marines. Um, hello? Have you notices the eight-pointed star? The daemonic skull? The horns and symbols that hurt just to look at? Commissars aren't stupid, they're the top graduates of the Schola Progenium, and are one of the few people outside the Inquisition and the Astartes who know of the existence of Chaos Space Marines.

Yes, but marines who are renegade/still going chaos are not spiky. And conversely, some can be spiky and still serve the Emperor (Soul Drinkers)

Thank you everyone for giving me a better understanding of the abilities/permissions of an Lord Commisar. Sorry to bother you all with this dumb question.

There are no dumb questions mate, just arrogant, snide answers from time to time. Dont let it put you off asking

Tadashi wrote:And I don't agree with those people saying a Commissar won't recognize traitor marines. Um, hello? Have you notices the eight-pointed star? The daemonic skull? The horns and symbols that hurt just to look at?

I think the issue some people perceived was when Marines turn against the Imperium on the field of battle instead of before - revealing their true colours, so to speak. In such an instance, a traitor may only be identified by his actions.

Unless they really want to be seen as traitors, of course. I think there was some Cadian regiment which appeared for an Imperial parade with Chaos banners only unfurled in the moment they opened fire, for example.

Indeed, if a marine was attacking guardsmen, without any explanation to the commanding and political officers, it's pretty much be expected that they would fight back as hard as they could. Let the chapter be pissed, the Imperium believes strongly in self defense

Lord Commissar or not, the Astartes is not within the Commissariat's chain of command, nor does enforcing discipline and unit cohesion within an Astartes Chapter fall under the Commissariat's purview. Guard and Navy, and while under conditions of martial law, the civilian population of a given planet/system/whatever. That's it.

So... no, a Commissar, of any rank, doesn't have the authority to shoot a SM for any reason. Of course, if said SM is shooting at him, he's generally within his rights to shoot back, assuming he's still capable thereof. Bolter rounds really don't give a feth about your stormcoat.

So it boils down to, no he doesnt have the authority to execute one. But if he did he could do it with ease.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:So it boils down to, no he doesnt have the authority to execute one. But if he did he could do it with ease.

Only if he was shooting the Astartes in the back. In a head-to-head fight, my money would be on the Astartes.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:So it boils down to, no he doesnt have the authority to execute one. But if he did he could do it with ease.

Only if he was shooting the Astartes in the back. In a head-to-head fight, my money would be on the Astartes.

I'd have to say that it would be fairly easy for a Lord Commissar to take out a simple "line" Astartes. Even with all the biological implants and sensor improvements, a political officer trained since they were pre pubescent with 50+ years of war experience would be precise enough with even a laspistol to drop a power armored superhuman before he could fully retaliate.

And Lord Commissars easily have 50+ years of experience. Juvenat treatments and all that.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:So it boils down to, no he doesnt have the authority to execute one. But if he did he could do it with ease.

Only if he was shooting the Astartes in the back. In a head-to-head fight, my money would be on the Astartes.

Except LORD Commisars have decades of experience, are better at both melee and ranged combat and have plasma pistols, and power weapons. Plus guardsmen. My moneys on the commisar.

NO a SM private out ranks A IG Officer of any grade.

tauxnimrod wrote:NO a SM private out ranks A IG Officer of any grade.

No. They are completely seperate organizations. Neither outranks the other. And space marine dont have privates...

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

No. They are completely seperate organizations. Neither outranks the other. And space marine dont have privates...

my point was that a SM would have command over a Guard in a situation they were both on the battlefield with a common goal. Also If SM do not have privates how do they advance to Captains and Sarges unless all Marines are already considered a Corporal.

Once again, I hope that folks will remember their answers re rank, chain of command and strict hierarchy vs connections and might makes right the next time one of the endless variants of 'Can SMs tell Inquisitors to eff off/exceed their legal authority?' comes up....

If a SM can tell an Inq to eff off and get away with it (under the right circumstances) then a Lord Commissar can off a SM and get away with it (under the right circumstances). The strict legalities matter or don't - pick one.

[PS: It's implicit in the OP's question that the Lord Commissar can functionally manage to execute the SM, and not get gunned down by a bunch of other SMs stood there (who don't exist in the question, so shouldn't be invoked) so 'lol a human manage to kill a SM?! lol!!!' isn't addressing the actual question.]

EDIT: I hope that ObliviousBlueCaboose meant what I think s/he did.... Good work! if so.

tauxnimrod wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

No. They are completely seperate organizations. Neither outranks the other. And space marine dont have privates...

my point was that a SM would have command over a Guard in a situation they were both on the battlefield with a common goal. Also If SM do not have privates how do they advance to Captains and Sarges unless all Marines are already considered a Corporal.

No. Space Marine companies and Chapters have no commanding authority over Imperial Guard forces by right. A Space Marine's senior commanders and the senior officers of an Imperial Guard force will converge and create a plan that uses both forces effectively. In some instances, Imperial Guard forces will yield all tactical decisions to the Space Marines. But this is the exception. To assume that Space Marines have natural authority over Imperial Guard in all situations is ignorant.

Also, the ranking structure of the Space Marines is different than the Guard. There are no corporals or privates or lieutenants or majors or colonels, ect. in the Astartes. Just as there are no chapter masters in the Guard. The Space Marines have battle brothers, sergeants, captains, and masters (maybe a couple more ranks thrown in).

tauxnimrod wrote:NO a SM private out ranks A IG Officer of any grade.

Space Marines don't even outrank a conscript.

Melissia wrote:

The Crusader wrote:I imagine it would go something like this:

" In His Holy Name, Stay and fight!"
BANG!
*clang from marine's power armor falling down due to him having a case of the exploded head*
"Oh gak, our commissar has BALLS. We best not stand up to him!"

Fixed for you.

I think that the brotherhood shared between two astartes would drive them to not simply accept a commissar- who has no authority over them to begin with- killing one of their own, but instead drive them into retaliation.

I'm actually fairly certain that legally a SM can not forcibly "take over" a guardsmen to begin with. It's apart of the Imperium's attempt to prevent another Horus Hersey. SM can't command any Imperial armies or navies, and the army and navy can't command each other either.

Allowing a space marine to actualy command a large number of guardsmen would be one of the less inteligent decisions in most situations. Most marines, even the high ranking ones, have no real experience whatsoever when it comes to leading large formations of human soldiers.

Ignatius wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:So it boils down to, no he doesnt have the authority to execute one. But if he did he could do it with ease.

Only if he was shooting the Astartes in the back. In a head-to-head fight, my money would be on the Astartes.

I'd have to say that it would be fairly easy for a Lord Commissar to take out a simple "line" Astartes. Even with all the biological implants and sensor improvements, a political officer trained since they were pre pubescent with 50+ years of war experience would be precise enough with even a laspistol to drop a power armored superhuman before he could fully retaliate.

I wouldn't say "fairly easy", but it is fairly likely the LC would win. 60%-40%

Simply put, Commissars can't execute Astartes since they don't command one another. Astartes can take control of campaigns if necessary, but this is rare, and only if the troops are predominantly Astartes, or the Astartes are the ones with the most experience/highest rank (Lord Dante at Armageddon, Lord Grimnar during the 13th Black Crusade - for Astartes - and Captain Sicarius at Zeist) at which point the most senior/most experienced Astartes takes command.

And if loyal Astartes and Imperial Guardsmen end up fighting each other, only the Inquisition can resolve it. If the Astartes can prove their actions, the Inquisition will rule in their favor. Dark Crusade: the Kronus Liberators were purged by the Blood Ravens, and filed accusations before the Ordo Hereticus. It didn't go through because the Blood Ravens were well within their rights to purge the planet, and even if the methods used were extreme, the Guardsmen were at fault by refusing to follow the Blood Ravens' stand down orders from their Chapter Master. According to Codex: Space Marines, Chapter Masters are peers of the Imperium, meaning that only the High Lords and the Inquisition can actually countermand their orders. So in the end, whether or not the Inquisition rules in favor of the Astartes or the Guard, it depends on the Imperium's own twisted hierarchy and balance of power. More often than not, the Inquisition will try to preserve the status quo, (just by looking at their reputation) and side with the Astartes and quietly slide the matter under the carpet, so to speak.

Tadashi wrote:Simply put, Commissars can't execute Astartes since they don't command one another. Astartes can take control of campaigns if necessary, but this is rare, and only if the troops are predominantly Astartes, or the Astartes are the ones with the most experience/highest rank (Lord Dante at Armageddon, Lord Grimnar during the 13th Black Crusade - for Astartes - and Captain Sicarius at Zeist) at which point the most senior/most experienced Astartes takes command.

And if loyal Astartes and Imperial Guardsmen end up fighting each other, only the Inquisition can resolve it. If the Astartes can prove their actions, the Inquisition will rule in their favor. Dark Crusade: the Kronus Liberators were purged by the Blood Ravens, and filed accusations before the Ordo Hereticus. It didn't go through because the Blood Ravens were well within their rights to purge the planet, and even if the methods used were extreme, the Guardsmen were at fault by refusing to follow the Blood Ravens' stand down orders from their Chapter Master. According to Codex: Space Marines, Chapter Masters are peers of the Imperium, meaning that only the High Lords and the Inquisition can actually countermand their orders. So in the end, whether or not the Inquisition rules in favor of the Astartes or the Guard, it depends on the Imperium's own twisted hierarchy and balance of power. More often than not, the Inquisition will try to preserve the status quo, (just by looking at their reputation) and side with the Astartes and quietly slide the matter under the carpet, so to speak.

meh...not quite.

On crusades, guard/navy commanders are nigh always in command, and it depends on the specific chapter/IG commander in question. They wouldn't dare pick a CM's side of a dispute over Macharius.

Naturally a Warmaster gets priority. But over a planetary purge? A Conclave would try to keep the matter quiet and get it done with quickly. Technically, the Blood Ravens on Kronus were right, and the Guard were wrong, and that's all the Inquisition cared about.

And in the Inquisition, personal opinions aren't really important. You need to look at the bigger picture if your an Inquisitor, and even then, you can't go against the consensus of an entire Conclave.

Tadashi wrote:Naturally a Warmaster gets priority. But over a planetary purge? A Conclave would try to keep the matter quiet and get it done with quickly. Technically, the Blood Ravens on Kronus were right, and the Guard were wrong, and that's all the Inquisition cared about.

And in the Inquisition, personal opinions aren't really important. You need to look at the bigger picture if your an Inquisitor, and even then, you can't go against the consensus of an entire Conclave.

Really, in the Kronus Campaign no Imperial Force was "right" or "wrong", it was all in the name of conquest and glory. The Imperial Governor did not want to submit to the Blood Ravens, and with the separation of Astartes and Guard he was perfectly within rights to do so.

Although to be far, Commander Boreale did FEEHLL to the Imperial Guard in Karuava which makes up for it.