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Kodanshi wrote:The point is that Space Marines represent a tier of law above any human authority

THAT is certainly not true.

The Space Marines are above neither the Emperor's Most Holy Inquisition, nor the High Lords of Terra.

Melissia wrote:

Kodanshi wrote:The point is that Space Marines represent a tier of law above any human authority

THAT is certainly not true.

The Space Marines are above neither the Emperor's Most Holy Inquisition, nor the High Lords of Terra.

Maybe the grey knights are...

To the OP...

As stated, the Commissariat lies outside of the Astartes structure and in the Imperial Guard structure.

That said, one would also have to realize that even if the Space Marine was a traitor, how would the Commissar know? Its highly doubtful that the Commissar would have ever seen a Space Marine anymore, let alone a traitor marine. Both would be superior to his ability and as such so fantastical that the Commissar is more likely to tell the men to follow his will rather than his own.

In short, even a Commissar is likely to follow a traitor marine telling him to rebel against the Imperium, especially if he is fooling him by saying his is loyal.

The Grey Knights are PART of the Inquisition by most accounts IIRC...

Bongfu wrote:a Commissar is likely to follow a traitor marine telling him to rebel against the Imperium

No they aren't. Despite the memetic portrayal, commissars are not idiots. In fact, they're some of the most highly educated people in the Imperium and specifically selected for their jobs and raised from birth to become what they are.

To the OP...

As stated, the Commissariat lies outside of the Astartes structure and in the Imperial Guard structure.

That said, one would also have to realize that even if the Space Marine was a traitor, how would the Commissar know? Its highly doubtful that the Commissar would have ever seen a Space Marine at any point in his short career, let alone a traitor marine. Both would be superior to his ability and as such so fantastical that the Commissar is more likely to tell the men to follow his will rather than his own.

In short, even a Commissar is likely to follow a traitor marine telling him to rebel against the Imperium, especially if he is fooling him by saying his is loyal.

Bongfu wrote:To the OP...

As stated, the Commissariat lies outside of the Astartes structure and in the Imperial Guard structure.

That said, one would also have to realize that even if the Space Marine was a traitor, how would the Commissar know? Its highly doubtful that the Commissar would have ever seen a Space Marine at any point in his short career, let alone a traitor marine. Both would be superior to his ability and as such so fantastical that the Commissar is more likely to tell the men to follow his will rather than his own.

In short, even a Commissar is likely to follow a traitor marine telling him to rebel against the Imperium, especially if he is fooling him by saying his is loyal.

Its kinda of a give away that a Chaos Space Marine is a chaos marine with the horns, blood on his armor and no consideration and laughing manically. And screaming death to the false emperor!
The only ones he won't get confused with are the Alpha Legionaries. Who scream for the EMPEROR!

Asherian Command wrote:Its kinda of a give away that a Chaos Space Marine is a chaos marine with the horns, blood on his armor and no consideration and laughing manically. And screaming death to the false emperor!
The only ones he won't get confused with are the Alpha Legionaries. Who scream for the EMPEROR!

Well that depends on the time scale. I mean, depending of how freshly traitorous said Marines are, they might not have had chance to Chaos up their armour yet. Also, there may be Marines who are follwoing orders from a superior traitor Marine without knowing he's turned, and so as far as protocol is concerned, they're traitors too.

As for executing a Space Marine

Joey wrote:He'd have to shoot him 9 times in the face anyway. Would be a bit awkward after the anti-climatic first shot.

No he wouldn't. Bolt through the grill, or just blow up his face with a plasma pistol.

Sturmtruppen wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Its kinda of a give away that a Chaos Space Marine is a chaos marine with the horns, blood on his armor and no consideration and laughing manically. And screaming death to the false emperor!
The only ones he won't get confused with are the Alpha Legionaries. Who scream for the EMPEROR!

Well that depends on the time scale. I mean, depending of how freshly traitorous said Marines are, they might not have had chance to Chaos up their armour yet. Also, there may be Marines who are follwoing orders from a superior traitor Marine without knowing he's turned, and so as far as protocol is concerned, they're traitors too.

As for executing a Space Marine

Spoiler:

Eisenhorn kills a Space Marine (who's wearing a helmet) with a single bolt round at the start of Malleus.

You do realize that Eisenhorn has more plot armor than freaking Calgar, right?

Melissia wrote:

Kodanshi wrote:The point is that Space Marines represent a tier of law above any human authority

THAT is certainly not true.

The Space Marines are above neither the Emperor's Most Holy Inquisition, nor the High Lords of Terra.

And I am willing to bet that were any astartes order to action by the likes of Macharius, they would oblige, though I doubt this is anything that would force them to.


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Chowderhead wrote:

Sturmtruppen wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Its kinda of a give away that a Chaos Space Marine is a chaos marine with the horns, blood on his armor and no consideration and laughing manically. And screaming death to the false emperor!
The only ones he won't get confused with are the Alpha Legionaries. Who scream for the EMPEROR!

Well that depends on the time scale. I mean, depending of how freshly traitorous said Marines are, they might not have had chance to Chaos up their armour yet. Also, there may be Marines who are follwoing orders from a superior traitor Marine without knowing he's turned, and so as far as protocol is concerned, they're traitors too.

As for executing a Space Marine

Spoiler:

Eisenhorn kills a Space Marine (who's wearing a helmet) with a single bolt round at the start of Malleus.

You do realize that Eisenhorn has more plot armor than freaking Calgar, right?

And that he is an inquisitor? Not a commissar? Inquisitors can kill whoever the feth they want. Exterminatus means not having to say you're sorry.

I was referring to a bolt pistol shot to an armored head. A commisar, in the fluff, would probably be given a las pistol, or a rock with a sling.

If Eisenhorn needed to kill a SM, he'd be given a fleet and a army of Long Fangs w/ Missile Launchers.

Wouldn't a marine be a touch quicker than a commissar?
I mean.. it's not like commissar's hide their executions is it?

Chowderhead wrote:A commisar, in the fluff, would probably be given a las pistol

A newbie perhaps. After some experience many upgrade to bolt pistol. Gaunt was always using his bolt pistol, and CAin only used his laspistol because he preferred its balance-- Cain would just use Jurgen's meltagun to execute an Astartes if he had to (and he did exactly that in the third book).

Chowderhead wrote:or a rock with a sling.

No, and also that is a stupid statement which made me want to choke you to death. Despite what it might sound like, this is not a pleasant desire to have.


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purplefood wrote:Wouldn't a marine be a touch quicker than a commissar?
I mean.. it's not like commissar's hide their executions is it?

That depends on if they announced it before or after they shot. Methinks most commissars are smart enough to announce the execution afterwards if they're executing a dangerous criminal.

Chowderhead wrote:I was referring to a bolt pistol shot to an armored head. A commisar, in the fluff, would probably be given a las pistol, or a rock with a sling.

If Eisenhorn needed to kill a SM, he'd be given a fleet and a army of Long Fangs w/ Missile Launchers.

Bolt pistol shot easily kills through PA helmet. And commissars usually have bolt pistols IIRC, with commissars in training/newer commissars having laspistols.

Or ones whose personal tastes cause them to prefer laspistols, but usually they make up for it by being EXTREMELY good with the laspistol.

Also all it takes is one laspistol shot to the face and the marine is down. The armor is the only reason thre's a problem.

Honest question, Mel. Why can't a commisar take any sort of rifle weapon?

Is it simply because a pistol is easier to cap a guardsman and enemies with?

Melissia wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:A commisar, in the fluff, would probably be given a las pistol

A newbie perhaps. After some experience many upgrade to bolt pistol. Gaunt was always using his bolt pistol, and CAin only used his laspistol because he preferred its balance-- Cain would just use Jurgen's meltagun to execute an Astartes if he had to (and he did exactly that in the third book).

Or his sword, we've seen him kill (chaos) space marines with it before.


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Chowderhead wrote:Honest question, Mel. Why can't a commisar take any sort of rifle weapon?

Is it simply because a pistol is easier to cap a guardsman and enemies with?

They like swords.

Chowderhead wrote:Honest question, Mel. Why can't a commisar take any sort of rifle weapon?

They can.

It's just that "hero" characters in tabletop are usually given a pistol and CCW.


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im2randomghgh wrote:Or his sword, we've seen him kill (chaos) space marines with it before.

As did Gaunt for that matter.

Melissia wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:Honest question, Mel. Why can't a commisar take any sort of rifle weapon?

They can.

It's just that "hero" characters in tabletop are usually given a pistol and CCW.


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im2randomghgh wrote:Or his sword, we've seen him kill (chaos) space marines with it before.

As did Gaunt for that matter.

I was actually referring to Gaunt, though I am fairly sure it goes for Cain too.

Yeah, he killed at least one with his chainsword. And another one with his Jurgen.


edit: man, that sounded dirtier than I intended.

Chowderhead wrote:Honest question, Mel. Why can't a commisar take any sort of rifle weapon?

Is it simply because a pistol is easier to cap a guardsman and enemies with?

Pistol is a mark of authority in the Guard. Though that's no reason why sargents shouldn't be able to have rifles.

Joey wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:Honest question, Mel. Why can't a commisar take any sort of rifle weapon?

Is it simply because a pistol is easier to cap a guardsman and enemies with?

Pistol is a mark of authority in the Guard. Though that's no reason why sargents shouldn't be able to have rifles.

Just like hats. Line troopers never wear hats.

A bolt pistol's effectiveness against power armor has always been dubious to me.

In the Chaos 4E codex, there's a short story about some random chaos lord fighting a space marine. Halfway through the story, the chaos lord draws his bolt pistol and shoots the helmet wearing SM in the face at near point blank range, multiple times, which basically does nothing beyond dent the SM's helmet and make him recoil a bit.

In addition to that, there's a scene in Blood Reaver where Talos and Xarl basically wade through a storm of bolter fire fired on fully automatic by other astartes, and they survive relatively unscathed.

The overall point I'm making is that there is some fluff that shows bolt rounds being somewhat useless against astartes power armor, ergo, even with a bolt pistol it's conceivable that a Commisar could have a hell of a time trying to execute a space marine.

Melissia wrote:Yeah, he killed at least one with his chainsword. And another one with his Jurgen.


edit: man, that sounded dirtier than I intended.

That entire conversion after I read your statement got 50x more dirter.

I Like Swords

Or his sword, we've seen him kill (chaos) space marines with it before.

Thanks Mel.

I was going to respond with something great!

But now. I can't think of anything more than Ciaphias Cain Hitting people with his sword. And then screaming 'for the emperor.'

Asherian Command wrote:

Melissia wrote:Yeah, he killed at least one with his chainsword. And another one with his Jurgen.


edit: man, that sounded dirtier than I intended.

That entire conversion after I read your statement got 50x more dirter.

I Like Swords

Or his sword, we've seen him kill (chaos) space marines with it before.

Thanks Mel.

I was going to respond with something great!

But now. I can't think of anything more than Ciaphias Cain Hitting people with his sword. And then screaming 'for the emperor.'

Incidentally, do you know where the word "scabbard" comes from?

As has been said, a Commissar's authority is restricted to the Imperial Guard regiment he is attached to, probably also civilians in a warzone where martial law has been declared.

However, if a Commissar would be convinced a Marine was committing an act of treason, he would be fully in his rights to shoot him - as would actually be the duty of any loyal servant of the Emperor. Of course, if the situation wouldn't develop into an all-out civil war that clearly shows the entire Chapter's guilt, there would be an inquiry into this action, but no Commissar would draw his gun lightly on one of the Angels of Death, so I reckon any investigation (probably conducted by an Inquisitor becoming alarmed by reports of treason amongst the Astartes) would see his action confirmed.

No Commissar would chastise a Marine for some small disciplinary fault, though. This is something the Chapter has to deal with itself - the Commissar might notify the Marine's superiors of any perceived wrongdoing, but that would be the most he could do.

Chowderhead wrote:Is it simply because a pistol is easier to cap a guardsman and enemies with?

I'd wager it's the psychological effect of the discharge. "BLAM" > "swoosh"

Bolt Pistol:
+ very loud
+ status symbol
+ lighter than a boltgun, easier to carry

As per the Imperial Guard Codex, all Commissars carry bolt pistols by default. It's pretty much their badge of office.

BlaxicanX wrote:A bolt pistol's effectiveness against power armor has always been dubious to me.
In the Chaos 4E codex, there's a short story about some random chaos lord fighting a space marine. Halfway through the story, the chaos lord draws his bolt pistol and shoots the helmet wearing SM in the face at near point blank range, multiple times, which basically does nothing beyond dent the SM's helmet and make him recoil a bit.

And that was in a GW book, really? Sounds pretty weird an very much unlike all other bolter fluff I've read from the studio so far. Bolt pistols use the very same ammunition as boltguns, meaning that half the Astartes would carry weapons unable to kill a CSM if this story was to be believed. Which page was that?

BlaxicanX wrote:A bolt pistol's effectiveness against power armor has always been dubious to me.

In the Chaos 4E codex, there's a short story about some random chaos lord fighting a space marine. Halfway through the story, the chaos lord draws his bolt pistol and shoots the helmet wearing SM in the face at near point blank range, multiple times, which basically does nothing beyond dent the SM's helmet and make him recoil a bit.

In addition to that, there's a scene in Blood Reaver where Talos and Xarl basically wade through a storm of bolter fire fired on fully automatic by other astartes, and they survive relatively unscathed.

The overall point I'm making is that there is some fluff that shows bolt rounds being somewhat useless against astartes power armor, ergo, even with a bolt pistol it's conceivable that a Commisar could have a hell of a time trying to execute a space marine.

However, in the short story Trial of the Mantis Warriors a sergeant has a hostile librarian standing behind him, and places his bolt pistol against his armour, and shoots clean through himself, and the bolt goes through behind him and explodes on the librarians armour.

Also, for obvious reasons, the head area of space marine armour would be much, much weaker than, for example, the breastplate or pauldrons.

I seem to remember in 'Battle for the Abyss' the space marines bolt pistols were only used to make their enemies recoil, not actually kill them.

Anyways, in truth unless that space marine was wearing terminator or artificer armor- or a primarch- there is no way that a bolt pistol wouldn't explode the space marines face. A boltgun/pistol fires an explosive shell. I've always seen it as being similar to an RPG, only exploding enough to take off limbs.

Wasn't Trials of the Mantis Warrior by C.S Goto?

Coolyo294 wrote:Wasn't Trials of the Mantis Warrior by C.S Goto?

Yes it was. It was written by C.S goto. poor gits.