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Ignatius wrote:I seem to remember in 'Battle for the Abyss' the space marines bolt pistols were only used to make their enemies recoil, not actually kill them.

Anyways, in truth unless that space marine was wearing terminator or artificer armor- or a primarch- there is no way that a bolt pistol wouldn't explode the space marines face. A boltgun/pistol fires an explosive shell. I've always seen it as being similar to an RPG, only exploding enough to take off limbs.

Smaller than an RPG; it is the bastard child of an RPG and a .50cal bullet.


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Coolyo294 wrote:Wasn't Trials of the Mantis Warrior by C.S Goto?

I...I didn't realize. I withdraw that statement about the mantis warriors :(

In Blood Ravens omnibus, tho, bolt pistols also scythe down astartes pretty handily.

Oh dear this thread is growing, excellent discussion everyone!

Lynata wrote:And that was in a GW book, really? Sounds pretty weird an very much unlike all other bolter fluff I've read from the studio so far. Bolt pistols use the very same ammunition as boltguns, meaning that half the Astartes would carry weapons unable to kill a CSM if this story was to be believed. Which page was that?

Here's the quote:

"One of the loyalists heard the pounding of their armored boots and turned, his bolter ready. The muzzle of his bolter flared, and Adrastus felt three solid impacts to the left of his chest. Spitting back a curse, he hurled himself at the Space Marine.

"Die, cowardly dog!" bellowed Adrastus, firing his bolt pistol into the face of his victim.

The Space Marine recoiled under the salvo, but brought his bolter up in time to aside Adrastus' sword arm as it swung down for the killing blow. Adrastus launched himself at the Imperial, bearing both of them to the ground"...

The story is called "No Mercy, No Forgiveness", and is on page 45.

There's no mention of the SM's helmet denting, so my memory failed there, but the story is still pretty telling, imo. Adrastus shruggs off three bolt rounds that hit him in the chest at close range, than shoots the SM in the face several times, which he in turn shrugs off.

All the same, one could just label the story as inconsistent. Admittedly, I've seen more instances of armored Astartes getting one-shotted by bolter fire than superman'ing through it.

A Lord Commissar has no legal authority to execute a Space Marine, no. The Adeptus Astartes are totally independent of the Imperial Guard, and the Commissariat has no power of them.

Now. . . CAN a Lord Commissar execute a Space Marine? That depends on the situation, the Commissar in question, and the Space Marine in question, but in 99% of cases I would say the answer is still no. I very much doubt he would even try, unless the Space Marine has utterly and unquestionably gone Chaotic right there on the battlefield; the Adeptus Astartes are notoriously prickly and often clash with other Imperial organizations, so I wouldn't put it past a Space Marine detachment to withdraw from a warzone entirely if they were offended by such an insult to their fighting character and righteousness. If he succeeded, the consequences might be even WORSE, at least on a personal level; the Space Marines have killed Imperial servants before, up to and including Inquisitors, and escaped censure because of their undeniable usefulness. I doubt that a Captain who had just learned that one of his men had been shot by a Commissar would let the matter go unavenged.

In general, disciplinary matters among the Space Marines are reserved for their own officers. Think of the Space Marines as the Knights Templar, and the Imperial Guard as, say, footsoldiers of the King of France (it was French subjects who founded the Knights Templar). Then ask yourself, 'Could a French knight execute one of the Knights Templar?' It's a very similar kind of question.

BlaxicanX wrote:There's no mention of the SM's helmet denting, so my memory failed there, but the story is still pretty telling, imo. Adrastus shruggs off three bolt rounds that hit him in the chest at close range, than shoots the SM in the face several times, which he in turn shrugs off.

Huh, alright - thanks for looking up and quoting the excerpt! The chest-thing I can actually "live with" as the armour looks fairly thick there and Astartes are pretty damn tough (fighting on even when mortally wounded), but the head-part sounds a bit dumb compared to what I'm used to.

In the 41st Millennium, there are only inconsistencies, I guess.

BeRzErKeR wrote:If he succeeded, the consequences might be even WORSE, at least on a personal level; the Space Marines have killed Imperial servants before, up to and including Inquisitors, and escaped censure because of their undeniable usefulness

Most of the time they don't. It is only the most important chapters (first and second founding) that wholly escape censure. A minor chapter killing an Inquisitor is more likely than not going to be excommunicated.

In fact, that's exactly what has happened to a few renegade chapters such as the poorly written "villain sue" Sons of Malice.

Melissia wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:If he succeeded, the consequences might be even WORSE, at least on a personal level; the Space Marines have killed Imperial servants before, up to and including Inquisitors, and escaped censure because of their undeniable usefulness

Most of the time they don't. It is only the most important chapters (first and second founding) that wholly escape censure. A minor chapter killing an Inquisitor is more likely than not going to be excommunicated.

In fact, that's exactly what has happened to a few renegade chapters such as the poorly written "villain sue" Sons of Malice.

I want berzerker to tell me where he sees loyal space marines killing loyal, non-radical inquisitors for nothing more than honour, with no repercussions. Go ahead, get me a source.

Melissia wrote:Most of the time they don't. It is only the most important chapters (first and second founding) that wholly escape censure. A minor chapter killing an Inquisitor is more likely than not going to be excommunicated.

In fact, that's exactly what has happened to a few renegade chapters such as the poorly written "villain sue" Sons of Malice.

True. . . but then, most of the time Commissars don't shoot Space Marines, either. At the very least, there'd be an inquiry into the situation afterwards, and I would tend to think that there would be little sympathy for the Commissar's position.

Many people wish Marines were more mary/villain sue. But even GW doesn't go as far as some of the fans...

BeRzErKeR wrote:I would tend to think that there would be little sympathy for the Commissar's position.

Maybe, but when you have renegades or chaos worshippers running around in your chapter, nobody gives a gak what your chapter thinks about the situation.

Just having a traitor revealed in such a way would dramatically reduce the ability of the chapter to influence the events surrounding the death of its marine. And any attempt to cover it up would only make the situation worse for the chapter.

im2randomghgh wrote:

I want berzerker to tell me where he sees loyal space marines killing loyal, non-radical inquisitors for nothing more than honour, with no repercussions. Go ahead, get me a source.

Space Wolves. Perhaps not for 'nothing more than honor', but then I didn't reference Inquisitors in reference to honor. I merely brought it up as an example of the kinds of things that Astartes have, historically, been able to get away with. Killing a Lord Commissar is nothing like the same level.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

I want berzerker to tell me where he sees loyal space marines killing loyal, non-radical inquisitors for nothing more than honour, with no repercussions. Go ahead, get me a source.

Space Wolves. Perhaps not for 'nothing more than honor', but then I didn't reference Inquisitors in reference to honor. I merely brought it up as an example of the kinds of things that Astartes have, historically, been able to get away with. Killing a Lord Commissar is nothing like the same level.

That is not a source.

Quote wherever you read Space Wolves killing inquisitors. They simply dislike and refuse to acknowledge the inquisition.

Space Wolves are the rare exception, and even they only get it through plot armor which violates the lore of everything else in the setting. Frankly I'm really tempted to read their codex to basically be one long series of nordic boasting from the Wolves themselves considering that GW itself admits that all its published sources are biased.

Melissia wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:I would tend to think that there would be little sympathy for the Commissar's position.

Maybe, but when you have renegades or chaos worshippers running around in your chapter, nobody gives a gak what your chapter thinks about the situation.

Just having a traitor revealed in such a way would dramatically reduce the ability of the chapter to influence the events surrounding the death of its marine. And any attempt to cover it up would only make the situation worse for the chapter.

If there was an actual heresy/traitorous situation going on, then that would certainly be a crippling loss of face for the chapter, and bring all kinds of condemnation down on them. I was under the impression that the OP's question involved Commissar's executing Space Marines for the kinds of things they execute Guardsmen for; turning their backs to the enemy, not following orders, etc.

A marine would likely not turn their backs on the enemy ("and they shall know no fear") in the first place-- without orders or tactical necessity anyway-- and the Marine isn't in the command chain to be following orders to begin with.

The only reason a commissar would likely shoot a Marine is for treason or heresy, which I believe I stated earlier.

Fair enough. If something like that were to happen, then most likely it would end up being the Chapter's word against the Commissar's, unless he had some kind of very strong proof (pict-feeds of the Marine spouting heretical slogans, a severed and obviously-mutated limb, etc) and I would think the most likely outcome would be that the Commissar would suffer some severe punishment, and the Inquisition would secretly place the Chapter on the Big List of People To Be Watched Extra-Closely. After which, if they actually WERE slipping away, they'd be found out and probably purged with extreme prejudice.

...if that were the case it would be like any Imperial soldier killing a rogue marine.
It's not an "execution" as the OP asked.

Joey wrote:It's not an "execution" as the OP asked.

It is part of a commissar's duty to root out heresy and execute heretics within the ranks of the guard. Normally in a non-combat situation (At least in my mind), the heretic would be bound and gagged, and brought out in front of the group to have his crimes announced and then executed in front of the entire platoon/regiment/etc. But executing a marine would likely not be a non-combat situation and most certainly wouldn't be normal.

This certainly is an execution.

Melissia wrote:

Joey wrote:It's not an "execution" as the OP asked.

It is part of a commissar's duty to root out heresy and execute heretics within the ranks of the guard. Normally in a non-combat situation (At least in my mind), the heretic would be bound and gagged, and brought out in front of the group to have his crimes announced and then executed in front of the entire platoon/regiment/etc. But executing a marine would likely not be a non-combat situation and most certainly wouldn't be normal.

This certainly is an execution.

Execution is death administered via a legal process, i.e. the commissar is allowed to kill guardsmen for cowardace/dereliction of duty. He is not legally allowed to kill a space marine, therefore his actions, regardless of the circumstances, would NOT be an execution.

Melissia wrote:A marine would likely not turn their backs on the enemy ("and they shall know no fear") in the first place-- without orders or tactical necessity anyway-- and the Marine isn't in the command chain to be following orders to begin with.

The only reason a commissar would likely shoot a Marine is for treason or heresy, which I believe I stated earlier.

And in this particular situation, it wouldn't be so much the LC vs a Marine as a regiment vs a chapter, since a marine will almost always act WITH is brothers.

I would think that a Lord Commissar would only execute a marine if he is blatently acting in a traitorous manner. If this is the case, then I would say that it would be a spur of the moment sort of execution.

In any other circumstances, it is probably more accepted that the Commissar should locate the chapters Chaplain, who would take over the investigation and be the executioner if it were deemed necessary. That is of course, in a non combat situation.

Just like a Chaplain would find a regiments commissar if he were suspicous of any guardsmen. While it may be acceptable for a chaplain to execute a guardsmen, say, at an encampment, I doubt the chaplain would just go ahead and shoot the guardsmen without at least telling the commissar first.

Ignatius wrote:I would think that a Lord Commissar would only execute a marine if he is blatently acting in a traitorous manner. If this is the case, then I would say that it would be a spur of the moment sort of execution.

In any other circumstances, it is probably more accepted that the Commissar should locate the chapters Chaplain, who would take over the investigation and be the executioner if it were deemed necessary. That is of course, in a non combat situation.

Just like a Chaplain would find a regiments commissar if he were suspicous of any guardsmen. While it may be acceptable for a chaplain to execute a guardsmen, say, at an encampment, I doubt the chaplain would just go ahead and shoot the guardsmen without at least telling the commissar first.

They probably would. I can see even a normal astartes doing this, tho maybe not a Salamander or equivalent.

I think it is possible that a Lord Commisar could execute a marine. Quite easily too. He can have a plasma pistol (IG codex and Commisar Hark from Guants Ghosts) a power sword (for something so rare they seem to be a dime a dozen) and has guardsmen. Lots of guardsmen. He could walk up to a guardsman, ask to inspect his melta, take it and use it to fry the marine. And the marine will underestimate the commisar, seeing as hes a high and mighty marine, no puny human can hurt a marine. Then a flash of light. And all thats left of the marine is his boots. And the stench of seared flesh.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I think it is possible that a Lord Commisar could execute a marine. Quite easily too. He can have a plasma pistol (IG codex and Commisar Hark from Guants Ghosts) a power sword (for something so rare they seem to be a dime a dozen) and has guardsmen. Lots of guardsmen. He could walk up to a guardsman, ask to inspect his melta, take it and use it to fry the marine. And the marine will underestimate the commisar, seeing as hes a high and mighty marine, no puny human can hurt a marine. Then a flash of light. And all thats left of the marine is his boots. And the stench of seared flesh.

Right, I agree. Really if they can use the right weapon, and score a hit. (most likely by suprise as Astartes Reflexes would far outmatch the humans ability to aim and pull the triger)
Anyway the right weapon whether wielded by Astartes or someone else fires the same deadly plasma etc....

PoisonWood wrote:Astartes Reflexes would far outmatch the humans ability to aim and pull the triger).

Astartes are not that fast or agile. Humans can match their speed and agility.

In power armor even.

Melissia wrote:

PoisonWood wrote:Astartes Reflexes would far outmatch the humans ability to aim and pull the triger).

Astartes are not that fast or agile. Humans can match their speed and agility.

In power armor even.

Then why are SM described as being faster than most humans?
I get how Inquisitors and the like may have enhancements but a Lord Commissar? They are fairly high ranked but would they be fast enough?

purplefood wrote:

Melissia wrote:

PoisonWood wrote:Astartes Reflexes would far outmatch the humans ability to aim and pull the triger).

Astartes are not that fast or agile. Humans can match their speed and agility.

In power armor even.

Then why are SM described as being faster than most humans?
I get how Inquisitors and the like may have enhancements but a Lord Commissar? They are fairly high ranked but would they be fast enough?

They are initiative 3, so...no.
Weapon skill 5 though so he'd have a good chance of killing the marine with a power fist.

Joey wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Melissia wrote:

PoisonWood wrote:Astartes Reflexes would far outmatch the humans ability to aim and pull the triger).

Astartes are not that fast or agile. Humans can match their speed and agility.

In power armor even.

Then why are SM described as being faster than most humans?
I get how Inquisitors and the like may have enhancements but a Lord Commissar? They are fairly high ranked but would they be fast enough?

They are initiative 3, so...no.
Weapon skill 5 though so he'd have a good chance of killing the marine with a power fist.

Unless the marine stabbed him in the face first... or he used a power sword...
At any rate you can't use table top stats in a background argument... i think this is what this is...

purplefood wrote:

Joey wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Melissia wrote:

PoisonWood wrote:Astartes Reflexes would far outmatch the humans ability to aim and pull the triger).

Astartes are not that fast or agile. Humans can match their speed and agility.

In power armor even.

Then why are SM described as being faster than most humans?
I get how Inquisitors and the like may have enhancements but a Lord Commissar? They are fairly high ranked but would they be fast enough?

They are initiative 3, so...no.
Weapon skill 5 though so he'd have a good chance of killing the marine with a power fist.

Unless the marine stabbed him in the face first... or he used a power sword...
At any rate you can't use table top stats in a background argument... i think this is what this is...

Yeah but the OP's question was answered in the first or second post.
For some reason people regard Background threads as an excuse to just dump whatever they know about a certain subject.
Even if the marine had a power sword he'd need 3 attacks.

Joey wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Joey wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Melissia wrote:

PoisonWood wrote:Astartes Reflexes would far outmatch the humans ability to aim and pull the triger).

Astartes are not that fast or agile. Humans can match their speed and agility.

In power armor even.

Then why are SM described as being faster than most humans?
I get how Inquisitors and the like may have enhancements but a Lord Commissar? They are fairly high ranked but would they be fast enough?

They are initiative 3, so...no.
Weapon skill 5 though so he'd have a good chance of killing the marine with a power fist.

Unless the marine stabbed him in the face first... or he used a power sword...
At any rate you can't use table top stats in a background argument... i think this is what this is...

Yeah but the OP's question was answered in the first or second post.
For some reason people regard Background threads as an excuse to just dump whatever they know about a certain subject.
Even if the marine had a power sword he'd need 3 attacks.

I meant the lord commissar.
Then i remembered at I3 it didn't matter.
Though if the marine also had a power fist they could in theory just nail each other at the same time...

purplefood wrote:Then why are SM described as being faster than most humans?

Marinewank; the act of making marines look more powerful than before, especially when it contradicts non-marine codices.

purplefood wrote:I get how Inquisitors and the like may have enhancements

They don't need enhancements. A simple cybernetic plug would suffice to allow them to mindlink to their power armor, and those things are more common than bolters. Higher quality ones can be obtained through the admech too, and the admech itself has some that are arguably more sophisticated than Black Carapace for its higher ups.

purplefood wrote: but a Lord Commissar? They are fairly high ranked but would they be fast enough?

That depends on if the lord commissar is an effective duelist. Many are, to survive tot he point where they become Lord Commissars.

While I don't pay any attention to the fifth edition codex, the third edition Sisters codex had Seraphim and Celestians as I4, and Canonesses were in both codices. And they're in power armor.


Marine enhancements do not increase their speed or agility.