Can a Lord Commisar...

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**Brother Coa**

Would a normal Commissar even had a chance against Astartes in close combat?

**Melissia**

Brother Coa wrote:Would a normal Commissar even had a chance against Astartes in close combat?

Yes.

The Astartes would have an advantage in terms of physiology, but the commissar would have the advantage in having training in dueling. The commissar would have an even greater chance if he had a power weapon.

**KamikazeCanuck**

Brother Coa wrote:Would a normal Commissar even had a chance against Astartes in close combat?

A grot can kill a terminator. Anything can happen.

**Asherian Command**

Melissia wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:Would a normal Commissar even had a chance against Astartes in close combat?
Yes.

The Astartes would have an advantage in terms of physiology, but the commissar would have the advantage in having training in dueling. The commissar would have an even greater chance if he had a power weapon.

Actually matters on the commissar.
If he is facing a Tactical marine from range. He is gone.
If he is facing a dreadnought he is screwed.

**Brother Coa**

Well I know that Gaunt beat Khorne Bezerker in close combat and Yarrick has killed an Ork Warboss in a close combat with his right hand missing and losings a lot of blood.

While I believe for a Tactical Marine I really doubt that ordinary Commissar can stand against Assault Marine, even with power weapons.

**Lynata**

Melissia wrote:Inquisitors are I4.

The gap seems somewhat less big in "Inquisitor", with normal Inquisitors being slightly below and Lord Inquisitors above a Marine. May be due to scale, may be due to minor differences in how Initiative is employed in both systems. Unless you draw the line between I4 and I5 at Initiative 90, but this would mean that there's only 10 points until you're at I6.

That said, this could of course still work if you assume that the higher values decrease in length ... like:
I2: 1-39
I3: 40-69
I4: 70-89
I5: 90-99
I6: 100+

Brother Coa wrote:Would a normal Commissar even had a chance against Astartes in close combat?

Close combat, like, with melee weapons? I'd say that power armour would protect the Marine long enough to react, and even Schola upbringing will not do much against a Marine's gauntlet fist..

**Melissia**

But with a power sword, the power armor is much less effective, which is what I said.

Also, I was referring to ALL inqusitors in the grey knights codex. Even Inquisitor Lords are I4. Even the special characters for some nonsensical reason.

Asherian Command wrote:If he is facing a Tactical marine from range. He is gone.
If he is facing a dreadnought he is screwed.

The commissar would likely order the guardsmen under his command to execute the marine for him if he couldn't get close enough for pistol-work.

And if a Marine faced an armored sentinel or other vehicle head on by himself he's probably screwed too. But I should remind you that a dreadnought has been taken down by a single lasgun shot.

**Lynata**

Melissia wrote:But with a power sword, the power armor is much less effective, which is what I said.

I was not assuming he would have one. In fact, by the time I started writing, you did not even post the power sword bit - so this is a response directly to Brother Coa, not your assessment.

With a power sword, I'd say he would have better chances indeed, but given the frail human body and a Marine's physical strength + ox-like toughness , I'd merely not make any more bets.

Melissia wrote:Also, I was referring to ALL inqusitors in the grey knights codex. Even Inquisitor Lords are I4. Even the special characters for some nonsensical reason.

My bad, I was referring on your earlier statement about Inquisitor Lords having a higher Initiative than Space Marines, so I assumed I5. I've never bothered with them in the TT at all, so my recollection on their stats is ... flimsy at best. In retrospect I noticed that that part was meant for their stats in the Inquisitor RPG.

**tsz52**

Lynata: Yup, totally down with the many interpretations thing. If you're not familiar with Infinity then I can see why you were less than impessed with that line of argument: A SM army is a TAG with a bit of change left over, converted to Infinity. I won't go into that here but it is a pretty powerful and much agreed upon statement. For your viewing pleasure and convenience (Infinity Jeanne d'Arc):-

http://www.infinitythegame.com/infinity/downloads/wallpapers/InfinityPanOceania1280x960.jpg

http://www.infinitythegame.com/infinity/en/2011/miniatures/joan-of-arc/

Think you might like some of the other PanO minis' vibe too (and there's another Jeanne d'Arc mini also, which isn't as nice), whilst you're there.

Anyroad, back to the inferior game with superior lore (still, for now): I get the horrible feeling that it'll end up that the GKs are the Chamber Militant for the whole Inquisition; that Deathwatch will be just another SM Codex (coz you can never have too many of those!!!); and the Sist... erm... who?.. whatevs.

**xXSir MontyXx**

I know there are many mechanisms in a space marines armor that could possibly respond to a marines neural stimulus. For example, my fiance' has prosthetic legs and arms. They react from the movement of her muscles (much less advanced obviously.) However the strength and speed of the arms take some getting used to.

My point is, if prosthetic limbs even today have a faster movement speed than a normal persons reaction time, would a space marines armor have the same effect since its almmost an exo-skeleton?

**Melissia**

The armor yes, the marine inside, not necessarily.

**tsz52**

xXSir MontyXx wrote:My point is, if prosthetic limbs even today have a faster movement speed than a normal persons reaction time, would a space marines armor have the same effect since its almmost an exo-skeleton?

I've defo read that it speeds things up... and that it slows things down. Realistically it'd be designed to stay the same at least (for consistency) or speed things up (if the wearer trains mostly in the armour) - why wouldn't it? Bit more speed of reaction might be something that you'd build into your outnumbered, fast moving shock troops and their gear.

**KamikazeCanuck**

A marine's black carapace allows him to be basically as fast and agile as if he were not wearing the rather bulky and heavy armour. It's like a second skin.

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tsz52 wrote:
Anyroad, back to the inferior game with superior lore (still, for now): I get the horrible feeling that it'll end up that the GKs are the Chamber Militant for the whole Inquisition;

End up? That's the way it is currently.

**ObliviousBlueCaboose**

You know I just read the op again and it says " Execute a Space Marine for any of the possible reasons to kill a guardsmen?" and realised we were only discussing from a sterotypical shoot a guardsman as he flees execution. But Commissars also execute for murder and rape. So if a Lord Commissar happens to see a space marine murdering or even worse raping someone, Im certain he would put a stop to it. With a plasma pistol.

**Coolyo294**

I'd like to see a Comissar try to execute a Space Marine for failing to properly salute an officer in the Imperial Guard

**81Northman**

Melissia wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:Would a normal Commissar even had a chance against Astartes in close combat?
Yes.

The Astartes would have an advantage in terms of physiology, but the commissar would have the advantage in having training in dueling. The commissar would have an even greater chance if he had a power weapon.

No of course not...the SM are the Greatest Warriors in the IoM, that is basic 40K knowledege.
If you want to be more picky, then the Adeptus Astartes are even beaten to this title by the Adeptus Custodes.

The Adeptus Astartes are trained not just in shooting but also in close combat and spend many hours a day training in close combat.

It took an Eversor Assasin to kill a Space Marine in close combat and that was purly because of the aggression and battle stims being flooded through its body...oh and then it got killed by all of his buddies...the marine in question was from the Sons of Horus.

If a Commisar tried to execute a Space Marine he would die and if he was lucky enough to kill him he would have to make sure the Marines Battle Brothers didn't kill him in return. Finally if he did escape them, he would be wanted for Heresy by the Emperor's Holy Inquisition for killing an Adeptus Astartes of the Emperor.

As I have said in an earlier post in this thread, the Commisariate exist to maintain discipline in the ranks of the IG and have no authority over the Adeptus Astartes...at all, in fact if anything they would effectivly follow whatever the SM say.

The only authority over the Adeptus Astartes other than within their own chapters is the Emperor's Holy Inquisition

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Further to this, A Commisar is a man, plain and simple MORTAL man.

A Space Marine is a Genetically Engineered Super Soldier and was created for one thing...WAR!!!!

They have been engineered to be Stronger, Faster and Bigger than a NORMAL man, Commisars are NORMAL men.

**Brother Coa**

Inquisition also don't have any authority over Astartes, other for declaring them Heretics anyway. Astartes are unique for of the Imperium because they don't answer to anyone, even High Lords of Terra.

And I just noted the OP question in hand. Commissar, even Commissar Lord, can't execute Astartes at all for killing a Guardsman. First they don't have any kind of authority toward them and second thing is that Astartes don't kill Guardsman on regular basis. Except few deviants.... ( Iron Hands, Flesh Tearers... )

**ShatteredBlade**

They do have the authority to requisition Space Marine forces, but it is not something that is lightly done. Sometimes the Space Marines make said inquisitor disappear, or just flat out refuse such as the Red Scorpions on the Anphelion project. Which is why the Inquisition usually just asks for the Space Marines Cooperation. And even then, they usually send in their "lap dog" chapters like the Exorcists and Minotaurs rather then other chapters.

**Melissia**

81Northman wrote:the SM are the Greatest Warriors in the IoM, that is basic 40K knowledege.

Except for all the other ones that are great.

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Brother Coa wrote:Inquisition also don't have any authority over Astartes

Yes they do. With rare exception (~ten of the thousand chapters whom are historically important enough to have the political sway to get away with it), most chapters must obey the Inquisition or suffer the consequences.

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ShatteredBlade wrote:Sometimes the Space Marines make said inquisitor disappear, or just flat out refuse such as the Red Scorpions on the Anphelion project.

ANd usually they suffer for it.

The (horribly written villain sue) sons of Malice did the same thing and they were driven in to the eye of terror.

**ObliviousBlueCaboose**

81Northman wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:Would a normal Commissar even had a chance against Astartes in close combat?
Yes.

The Astartes would have an advantage in terms of physiology, but the commissar would have the advantage in having training in dueling. The commissar would have an even greater chance if he had a power weapon.

No of course not...the SM are the Greatest Warriors in the IoM, that is basic 40K knowledege.
If you want to be more picky, then the Adeptus Astartes are even beaten to this title by the Adeptus Custodes.

The Adeptus Astartes are trained not just in shooting but also in close combat and spend many hours a day training in close combat.

It took an Eversor Assasin to kill a Space Marine in close combat and that was purly because of the aggression and battle stims being flooded through its body...oh and then it got killed by all of his buddies...the marine in question was from the Sons of Horus.

If a Commisar tried to execute a Space Marine he would die and if he was lucky enough to kill him he would have to make sure the Marines Battle Brothers didn't kill him in return. Finally if he did escape them, he would be wanted for Heresy by the Emperor's Holy Inquisition for killing an Adeptus Astartes of the Emperor.

As I have said in an earlier post in this thread, the Commisariate exist to maintain discipline in the ranks of the IG and have no authority over the Adeptus Astartes...at all, in fact if anything they would effectivly follow whatever the SM say.

The only authority over the Adeptus Astartes other than within their own chapters is the Emperor's Holy Inquisition

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Further to this, A Commisar is a man, plain and simple MORTAL man.

A Space Marine is a Genetically Engineered Super Soldier and was created for one thing...WAR!!!!

They have been engineered to be Stronger, Faster and Bigger than a NORMAL man, Commisars are NORMAL men.

Examples of Commissars killing Marines. Gaunt, on Fortis Binary killed a Chaos space marine. Guant on Geron duel a chaos space marine long enough for primitive humans to shoot it to dead with crossbows. Cain in the Traitors Hand (book 3) dueled a Khorne Berserker, killed him quite easily, then proceded to kill a deamon in H2h. Then in Cains last stand he dueled and defeated a chaos warlord.

So men can defeat space marines. Now I will give you that marines are the better warriors, but the Lord Commissar has the best soldiers in the galaxy backing him up. And warrior vs soldier, soldier comes out on top most of the time.

And marines have no authority over the Imperial Guard. Its been that way for 10000 years, ever since one marine decided he has daddy issues and threw a tantrum.

Point being lord commissars are better skilled. Period. They have acces to plasma weaponry, and power sword. Have carapace armor (in fluff pretty powerful armor.) And have guardsmen on their side. Plus enough influence to probualy get away with it. Especially if its one of the crazy chapters.

**KamikazeCanuck**

What are you going on about? You know space marines also have other space marines backing him up too. If you going to make a big deal about a Lord Commissars ability to requisition special equipment then his equivilant would be a chapter master. Those guys have a lot of fancy gear too including power weapons, plasma and Iron Halos.

**Lynata**

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Examples of Commissars killing Marines. Gaunt, on Fortis Binary killed a Chaos space marine. Guant on Geron duel a chaos space marine long enough for primitive humans to shoot it to dead with crossbows. Cain in the Traitors Hand (book 3) dueled a Khorne Berserker, killed him quite easily, then proceded to kill a deamon in H2h. Then in Cains last stand he dueled and defeated a chaos warlord.

To be fair, personally I generally wouldn't pull unique "examples", as they may not only be exceptions from the rule but more often than not are driven by the respective author's personal interpretation of the setting. If we start quoting novels, this will quickly escalate, as just about every army has some funny story about an invincible uberhero.

The Cain books in particular, even aside from their author's ... "interesting" take on the Commissariat and the Schola, seem to be about as exaggerated as the Space Wolf stories.

In the end, I guess it once again boils down to what interpretation of the setting one prefers. Given the fickle nature of 40k's fluff, there is no way to come to some kind of general consensus at this level of detail.

**Ignatius**

How many millions of Commissars are there in the Imperium? I don't think it does either Commissariat or Astartes justice to make inferences about who would beat who.

**Melissia**

KamikazeCanuck wrote:What are you going on about? You know space marines also have other space marines backing him up too. If you going to make a big deal about a Lord Commissars ability to requisition special equipment then his equivilant would be a chapter master. Those guys have a lot of fancy gear too including power weapons, plasma and Iron Halos.

Fine, artillery bombardment.

There's your execution.

Because there is no kill like overkill. There is only open fire and I need to reload.

**KamikazeCanuck**

Melissia wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:What are you going on about? You know space marines also have other space marines backing him up too. If you going to make a big deal about a Lord Commissars ability to requisition special equipment then his equivilant would be a chapter master. Those guys have a lot of fancy gear too including power weapons, plasma and Iron Halos.
Fine, artillery bombardment.

There's your execution.

Because there is no kill like overkill. There is only open fire and I need to reload.

Yes, that'd help but I don't think they call that execution they cal it "WAR!"

**KingDeath**

Ignatius wrote:How many millions of Commissars are there in the Imperium? I don't think it does either Commissariat or Astartes justice to make inferences about who would beat who.

A Lord Commisar is not just anyone. We are speaking about an individual which not only survived many decades on the battlefield but also somehow managed to distinguish himself enough
to get promoted to the highest rank possible for his profession. Such men ( and women ) are rare and most likely tremendously skilled and influential, they shouldn't be taken likely, not even by the carriongod's finest.

**Ignatius**

KingDeath wrote:
Ignatius wrote:How many millions of Commissars are there in the Imperium? I don't think it does either Commissariat or Astartes justice to make inferences about who would beat who.

A Lord Commisar is not just anyone. We are speaking about an individual which not only survived many decades on the battlefield but also somehow managed to distinguish himself enough
to get promoted to the highest rank possible for his profession. Such men ( and women ) are rare and most likely tremendously skilled and influential, they shouldn't be taken likely, not even by the carriongod's finest.

Of course. I was refering more to the people speaking of all commissars in general. To be fair though, if you are going to compare a Lord Commissar (argueably the guards finest warriors) to an Astartes, you should probably do it between a Lord Commissar and their equivalent, say a Chapter Master.

But I digress. I'm not contesting the ability of a Commissar- I just wish to make people think.

**im2randomghgh**

Lynata wrote:The origin of the source is probably the "issue". They also change their average height anywhere between 7 and 11 feet depending entirely on what you're reading.

For what it's worth, they have constantly been getting better in GW's books to go along with the hype - both in stats and in fluff capabilities. Anyone remember their original Rogue Trader version?

Where the hell are they 11 feet? That's getting into primarch height.

8-9 feet in the fanwankish stories, 7 to 7 1/2 feet in ones written by authors who aren't slowed.

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Melissia wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:What are you going on about? You know space marines also have other space marines backing him up too. If you going to make a big deal about a Lord Commissars ability to requisition special equipment then his equivilant would be a chapter master. Those guys have a lot of fancy gear too including power weapons, plasma and Iron Halos.
Fine, artillery bombardment.

There's your execution.

Because there is no kill like overkill. There is only open fire and I need to reload.

No, Canuck. The equivalent of a chapter master would be a Lord militant/warmaster. And you can BET that if a warmaster wanted an individual astartes dead, he would be dead.

**Melissia**

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Yes, that'd help but I don't think they call that execution they cal it "WAR!"

Assuming anyone found out about it before the cover story was given.

That's why the Blood ravens got away with it.

**ObliviousBlueCaboose**

KamikazeCanuck wrote:What are you going on about? You know space marines also have other space marines backing him up too. If you going to make a big deal about a Lord Commissars ability to requisition special equipment then his equivilant would be a chapter master. Those guys have a lot of fancy gear too including power weapons, plasma and Iron Halos.

We're talking about a Lord Commissar, on a planet, executing a marine. Now Lord Commissars are fairly rare. But not as rare as a chapter master. Odds are its a squad or two of marines on planet. Maybe a captain. Seeing as how marines are susposed to be rare in the fluff. Unlike the table top, where 50% of the armies are marines. So seeing thats the Lord Commissars a smart person, he knows he needs to execute this murdering marine quickly. So he either takes a squad or two of guardsmen, which unlike marines are very commonplace. Or he uses a plasma pistol.