Can a Lord Commisar...

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**ObliviousBlueCaboose**

No it would go something like this.

Plasma pistol goes off fries the marine. Lord Commisar looks at his men. "No one is above the Emperors justice, not even his angels of death."

A Lord Commisar is a highly skilled warrior. High enough that GW stated them higher then their beloved marines. A regular marine doesnt stand a chance.

**SomeRandomEvilGuy**

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
Plasma pistol goes off fries the marine. Lord Commisar looks at his men. "No one is above the Emperors justice, not even his angels of death."

Really? So what makes the average Lord Commissar faster and quicker reacting than an Astartes?

A Lord Commisar is a highly skilled warrior. High enough that GW stated them higher then their beloved marines. A regular marine doesnt stand a chance.

Yes he is. Are they said in the background to be better than Astartes in combat, or is that just the table-top stats?

**im2randomghgh**

BeRzErKeR wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:

Iron hands aren't second founding.

Oh GOD he thought they were second founding.

And having them kill your men is more than sufficient reason for retaliation.

The Iron Hands Chapter is, in fact, Second Founding. The Second Founding was the Chapters created from the breakup of the Legions, which included those chapters that retained the names of the Legions.

And I VERY much doubt the Imperium would attack the Iron Hands for killing a few Guardsmen, or even a few thousand Guardsmen.

They are first founding. Anything that was a legion, was first founding. The Brazen claws are Iron Hands second founding. The Iron Hands weren't made during second founding, they had a few thousand marines re-assigned from amongst their ranks.

And the Imperium wouldn't attack them for killing a few thousand guardsmen, but the guardsmen under attack might.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
Plasma pistol goes off fries the marine. Lord Commisar looks at his men. "No one is above the Emperors justice, not even his angels of death."

Really? So what makes the average Lord Commissar faster and quicker reacting than an Astartes?

A Lord Commisar is a highly skilled warrior. High enough that GW stated them higher then their beloved marines. A regular marine doesnt stand a chance.

Yes he is. Are they said in the background to be better than Astartes in combat, or is that just the table-top stats?

They start training earlier than astartes, live just as long and have all kinds of enhancements, as well as not having to train multiple styles of warfare (at different points in their career, ALL astartes are scouts, ALL astartes are devastators, ALL are tactical marines, ALL are assault marines, most are pilots/drivers of some kind at some point, and some also have to learn Terminator armour and dreadnought armour) and have access to more equipment that rank and file marines.

**Tadashi**

Space Marines are masters of none and jacks of all trades. They're not specialists, but general purpose high performance units.

Imperial Guards are soldiers. They have specialists, assault troops, etc. They need to use numbers and coordination tactics to achieve victory. Astartes can win on their own, but Guardsmen need to cooperate with one another and use greater effort to achieve victory.

**im2randomghgh**

Tadashi wrote:Space Marines are masters of none and jacks of all trades. They're not specialists, but general purpose high performance units.

Imperial Guards are soldiers. They have specialists, assault troops, etc. They need to use numbers and coordination tactics to achieve victory. Astartes can win on their own, but Guardsmen need to cooperate with one another and use greater effort to achieve victory.

I am saying a lord commissar would have more training and experience in his particular style of fighting than would an astartes.

**Tadashi**

Exactly.

**Melissia**

In before "but the marine would dodge the plasma blast!" and other such nonsense, because Marines have never proven to be notably faster than a well trained human except in some of the more egregious marinewank material.

**im2randomghgh**

Melissia wrote:In before "but the marine would dodge the plasma blast!" and other such nonsense, because Marines have never proven to be notably faster than a well trained human except in some of the more egregious marinewank material.

Well I bet their reaction times are better, but not bullet-time: They cannot dodge shots from a pistol.

**Melissia**

Better than the average human yes, but a trained professional... probably not. Trained professional fighters have EXTREMELY low reaction times. Having taken part in a reaction time exercise in a Krav Maga demonstration I was amazed at how fast it was done and a lord commissar is likely to be even faster with his experience and training.

**im2randomghgh**

Melissia wrote:Better than the average human yes, but a trained professional... probably not. Trained professional fighters have EXTREMELY low reaction times. Having taken part in a reaction time exercise in a Krav Maga demonstration I was amazed at how fast it was done and a lord commissar is likely to be even faster with his experience and training.

At the same time though, the marines would likely have all this training too, plus biological advantages.

It wouldn't be enough to matter against a LC though, as the differences would be minimal due to the enhancements we all know they would favour.

**Melissia**

im2randomghgh wrote:At the same time though, the marines would likely have all this training too, plus biological advantages.

I don't see any biological enhancements that effect reaction time.

Hypnotherapy yes, but that can also be given to humans (and in the Inquisition, often is).

**Ignatius**

Melissia wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:At the same time though, the marines would likely have all this training too, plus biological advantages.
I don't see any biological enhancements that effect reaction time.

Hypnotherapy yes, but that can also be given to humans (and in the Inquisition, often is).

I would not be at all suprised if the biological advancements given to marines cause a strengthening of optical sensors, transmission of brain waves, and the resulting muscles reacting to the stimulation. Not based on facts, more so on opinion.

**Melissia**

Ignatius wrote:
Melissia wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:At the same time though, the marines would likely have all this training too, plus biological advantages.
I don't see any biological enhancements that effect reaction time.

Hypnotherapy yes, but that can also be given to humans (and in the Inquisition, often is).

I would not be at all suprised if the biological advancements given to marines cause a strengthening of optical sensors, transmission of brain waves, and the resulting muscles reacting to the stimulation. Not based on facts, more so on opinion.

They are not described as such.

**BeRzErKeR**

The only augmentation specifically mentioned that could affect reaction times is increased sensitivity of the senses. The others are mostly about strength, durability, or doing weird things like spitting acid or learning something by eating brains. In this particular field, the biological advantage of a Space Marine over an experienced, well-trained human is only minor. A man who managed to take a Space Marine by surprise could still get the drop on him.

**im2randomghgh**

BeRzErKeR wrote:The only augmentation specifically mentioned that could affect reaction times is increased sensitivity of the senses. The others are mostly about strength, durability, or doing weird things like spitting acid or learning something by eating brains. In this particular field, the biological advantage of a Space Marine over an experienced, well-trained human is only minor. A man who managed to take a Space Marine by surprise could still get the drop on him.

While open combat between a space marine and an exceptionally well trained human could go either way, you will not catch them by surprise, because their genhanced senses mean you cannot sneak up on one. You COULD surprise one if he thinks you're an ally and you plasma bolt him in the back of the head though.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:
Ignatius wrote:
Melissia wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:At the same time though, the marines would likely have all this training too, plus biological advantages.
I don't see any biological enhancements that effect reaction time.

Hypnotherapy yes, but that can also be given to humans (and in the Inquisition, often is).

I would not be at all suprised if the biological advancements given to marines cause a strengthening of optical sensors, transmission of brain waves, and the resulting muscles reacting to the stimulation. Not based on facts, more so on opinion.
They are not described as such.

I4

**Spetulhu**

How often would the situation even come up? A Lord Comissar is certainly powerful enough that he could ask marines to assist him, but they'd likely be off doing what the LC's troops can't do. They're not even going to be hanging around with him.

**Melissia**

im2randomghgh wrote:I4

Which is a result of their hypnotherapy, not their biological implants. The hypnotherapy is not unique to Marines.

Nor is I4 unique to Marines amongst Imperial forces.

**im2randomghgh**

Melissia wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:I4
Which is a result of their hypnotherapy, not their biological implants. The hypnotherapy is not unique to Marines.

Nor is I4 unique to Marines amongst humans.

Well I4 is present in some humans, but I5 is present in some marines.

Either way, LC can take a line marine, though probably only one, should the need arise, though he would never gets permission to do so and would have to deal with the inquisition after wards.

Summarized?

Can we lock the thread.

**Melissia**

im2randomghgh wrote:Well I4 is present in some humans, but I5 is present in some marines.

And some humans, too.

Some humans get even higher to I6.

im2randomghgh wrote:Either way, LC can take a line marine, though probably only one, should the need arise, though he would never gets permission to do so and would have to deal with the inquisition after wards.

The Lord Commissar wouldn't need permission. At that rank and level of prestige, he acts on his own volition.

**im2randomghgh**

Melissia wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:Well I4 is present in some humans, but I5 is present in some marines.
And some humans, too.

Some humans get even higher to I6.

im2randomghgh wrote:Either way, LC can take a line marine, though probably only one, should the need arise, though he would never gets permission to do so and would have to deal with the inquisition after wards.
The Lord Commissar wouldn't need permission. At that rank and level of prestige, he acts on his own volition.

With the blessing of a warmaster he could get away with it (maybe). Without, he'd get a bolt in the face from the SM's brothers.

And are you referring to the assassins? Because I don't personally remember any unaugmented humans at I6.

**Asherian Command**

Melissia wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:Well I4 is present in some humans, but I5 is present in some marines.
And some humans, too.

Some humans get even higher to I6.

im2randomghgh wrote:Either way, LC can take a line marine, though probably only one, should the need arise, though he would never gets permission to do so and would have to deal with the inquisition after wards.
The Lord Commissar wouldn't need permission. At that rank and level of prestige, he acts on his own volition.

Unless you know he executes a captain or a terminator a member of a command squad. He can shoot scouts though it will teach them to obey. Then that would probably make the Lord Commissar think. "Oh crap."

**Alexzandvar**

Asherian Command wrote:
Melissia wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:Well I4 is present in some humans, but I5 is present in some marines.
And some humans, too.

Some humans get even higher to I6.

im2randomghgh wrote:Either way, LC can take a line marine, though probably only one, should the need arise, though he would never gets permission to do so and would have to deal with the inquisition after wards.
The Lord Commissar wouldn't need permission. At that rank and level of prestige, he acts on his own volition.

Unless you know he executes a captain or a terminator a member of a command squad. He can shoot scouts though it will teach them to obey. Then that would probably make the Lord Commissar think. "Oh crap."

a Lord Commissar, is more likely to have higher connections with the people who matter than your average Astartes unit will. Not to mention that Astartes regularly have run ups with the Inquistion.

**Asherian Command**

Alexzandvar wrote:
Tadashi wrote:Boreale was an idiot, that's why. And the Governor was not in his rights. Chapter Master Kyras' orders can only be countermanded by another Chapter Master, the High Lords, or an Inquisitor. The Governor should have stood down when ordered to, that's why the Inquisition favored the Blood Ravens in the end.

True. I didn't know that Kyras ordered it then. But remember a certain some-one who turned traitor in the end! .

Looks like the Governor made the correct call at the wrong time!

But yeah Boreale was funny, great to talk to. But an Idiot all the same. Why did he get to Captain in the first place?

Actually he has to stand down

Planetary Defence Forces (or PDF for short) is a term referring to the primary military defence forces of an Imperial world. PDF are under the control of the local government rather than direct Imperial control; the raising, training, arming, leadership, etc, is entirely in the hands of the Imperial Governor. All Imperial planets in general are required to maintain a standing army in order to maintain government (and thus Imperial) control over the planet against any possible invasion or insurrection.

In response to any threat, it is the responsibility of the PDF to engage the enemy until Imperial reinforcements can be mustered from the nearby sector. Thus although rarely respected due to their inherent lack of experience, PDF are widely considered crucial to the Departmento Munitorum as the first line of defence for Imperial worlds against Xenos invasion and Chaos-inspired rebellion

Just as significant is the PDFs' role as the main source of recruits for the Imperial Guard. Whenever required, the best soldiers in a PDF are transferred into the Imperial Guard, receiving further training as they are shipped to their destined location elsewhere in the galaxy.

They have to give overall command to the Imperial forces. So in this case the Space Marines.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alexzandvar wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:
Melissia wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:Well I4 is present in some humans, but I5 is present in some marines.
And some humans, too.

Some humans get even higher to I6.

im2randomghgh wrote:Either way, LC can take a line marine, though probably only one, should the need arise, though he would never gets permission to do so and would have to deal with the inquisition after wards.
The Lord Commissar wouldn't need permission. At that rank and level of prestige, he acts on his own volition.

Unless you know he executes a captain or a terminator a member of a command squad. He can shoot scouts though it will teach them to obey. Then that would probably make the Lord Commissar think. "Oh crap."

a Lord Commissar, is more likely to have higher connections with the people who matter than your average Astartes unit will. Not to mention that Astartes regularly have run ups with the Inquistion.

Not all the time. A Captain is an extremely gifted individual. The Lord Commissar has no right to execute those who are under his command even if he does shoot him. The invulnerablity of the iron halo would make it come off as if nothing happened. Plus it would be considered an attack. Lord Commissars would never attack a Space Marine. Unless the space marine was a Marines Errant or a jerk space marine that blows up civilians with mortars. Then yes he can shoot them.

**im2randomghgh**

Asherian Command wrote:
Melissia wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:Well I4 is present in some humans, but I5 is present in some marines.
And some humans, too.

Some humans get even higher to I6.

im2randomghgh wrote:Either way, LC can take a line marine, though probably only one, should the need arise, though he would never gets permission to do so and would have to deal with the inquisition after wards.
The Lord Commissar wouldn't need permission. At that rank and level of prestige, he acts on his own volition.

Unless you know he executes a captain or a terminator a member of a command squad. He can shoot scouts though it will teach them to obey. Then that would probably make the Lord Commissar think. "Oh crap."

Well I think there are certain obstacles preventing a commissar from killing a terminator bigger than just political meaning...i.e. the terminator armour.

**xXSir MontyXx**

What of the armor? Does this enhance reactions and various other attributes?

**KamikazeCanuck**

p.s. Marines have faster reaction time than humans - obviously.

**Tadashi**

xXSir MontyXx wrote:What of the armor? Does this enhance reactions and various other attributes?

I'm not sure...but it is adamantium plated after all, that's got to count for something.
AS: 2
IS: 5

**81Northman**

No, not under any circumstances,

The commisariate exists to keep the IG in check and to maintain dicipline among it's ranks

IF he did and I would be suprised if the marine even allowed him to try, he would almost certainly be made to stand trial for Heresy by the Inquisition.

The only people whom have any real tangiable authority over the SM is the EMPEROR's Holy Inquisiton.

**Melissia**

KamikazeCanuck wrote:p.s. Marines have faster reaction time than humans

Again, they don't. There are no biological enhancements that increase a marine's reaction time.

im2randomghgh wrote:And are you referring to the assassins?

Nope. Assassins are faster tahn I6 anyway IIRC.

**BeRzErKeR**

Yeah, Imperial Assassins are a whole different kettle of fish. They get every biological enhancement possible, plus psychological treatment that makes what Space Marines go through seem like a walk in the park, plus outright augmetic surgery, plus shockingly brutal training for the entire length of their lives. I don't remember what their tabletop Initiative stat is, but it's very, very high.

Also; consider the Initiative, like everything on the tabletop, is an abstraction. It combines experience with warfare, reaction times, how keen the model's senses are, and doubtless plenty of other factors and boils them down to a single number.

A Space Marine is I4, IMO, largely because his senses are sharper than normal human senses are, and he's had much, much more combat experience than the average human soldier or ever average hardened veteran. He hears/sees things coming faster, and he knows what they are faster, too; that means he has more TIME to react, and it isn't necessary to assume that his reactions, themselves, are really superior. It's just that he started moving first.