Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Boreale was an idiot, that's why. And the Governor was not in his rights. Chapter Master Kyras' orders can only be countermanded by another Chapter Master, the High Lords, or an Inquisitor. The Governor should have stood down when ordered to, that's why the Inquisition favored the Blood Ravens in the end.
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
Tadashi wrote:Boreale was an idiot, that's why. And the Governor was not in his rights. Chapter Master Kyras' orders can only be countermanded by another Chapter Master, the High Lords, or an Inquisitor. The Governor should have stood down when ordered to, that's why the Inquisition favored the Blood Ravens in the end.
True. I didn't know that Kyras ordered it then. But remember a certain some-one who turned traitor in the end! .
Looks like the Governor made the correct call at the wrong time!
But yeah Boreale was funny, great to talk to. But an Idiot all the same. Why did he get to Captain in the first place?
"The Imperium is nothing if not willing to go to any lengths necessary. So the Trekkies are zipping around at warp speed taking small chucks out of an nigh-on infinite amount of ships, with the Imperium being unable to strike back. feth it, says central command, and detonates every vortex warhead in the fleet, plunging the entire sector into the Warp. Enjoy tentacle-rape, Kirk, we know Sulu will." -Terminus
"This great fortress was a gift to the Blood Ravens from the legendary Imperial Fists. When asked about it Chapter Master Pugh was reported to say: "THEY TOOK WHAT!?""
Tadashi wrote:Boreale was an idiot, that's why. And the Governor was not in his rights. Chapter Master Kyras' orders can only be countermanded by another Chapter Master, the High Lords, or an Inquisitor. The Governor should have stood down when ordered to, that's why the Inquisition favored the Blood Ravens in the end.
Not. . . really. Space Marines are EXPLICITLY given no authority whatsoever over the rest of the Imperium, unless that authority is specifically granted by some kind of special dispensation (for instance, a Chapter Master is typically also the Governor of his Chapter's homeworld; he does NOT hold that position by his authority as Chapter Master, only because he has a second, official, position). That's kind of the whole thing with Space Marines; they're separate, and neither in command of other Imperial organizations nor commanded by them.
A Chapter Master being a peer of the realm means that his orders to his own Space Marines cannot be countermanded. It doesn't give him the right to give orders to Imperial Governors or Imperial Guard forces. Space Marines are explicitly prohibited from commanding the Imperial Guard, in fact, ever since the Horus Heresy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/24 02:41:34
Boreale VS Diomedies in a nutshell! Whoever wins, we lose!
"The Imperium is nothing if not willing to go to any lengths necessary. So the Trekkies are zipping around at warp speed taking small chucks out of an nigh-on infinite amount of ships, with the Imperium being unable to strike back. feth it, says central command, and detonates every vortex warhead in the fleet, plunging the entire sector into the Warp. Enjoy tentacle-rape, Kirk, we know Sulu will." -Terminus
"This great fortress was a gift to the Blood Ravens from the legendary Imperial Fists. When asked about it Chapter Master Pugh was reported to say: "THEY TOOK WHAT!?""
And even so, the Governor should have withdrawn when ordered by the Blood Ravens to do so, that's what the Inquisition ruled in the end. Or are you saying the Inquisition was wrong?
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
And even so, the Governor should have withdrawn when ordered by the Blood Ravens to do so, that's what the Inquisition ruled in the end. Or are you saying the Inquisition was wrong?
I'm saying the Inquisition made a politically-driven decision, not a legal one. Giving a choice between pissing off the Blood Ravens and pissing off the Governor, they chose to favor the Blood Ravens. What legally should happen and what actually DOES happen are often not the same in the grimdark future. That's part of what makes it grimdark.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/24 03:03:33
The Inquisition sees the big picture, and are the guardians of the Emperor's will and word. They decreed exterminatus upon Blood Raven planets in Retribution, and only Captains Angelos and Diomedes' last minute actions prevented it. Even when Typhon burned, Captain (and by now Chapter Master) Angelos stated that the Blood Ravens should not blame the Inquisition for doing their duty.
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
The point is, questioning the Inquisition is not just a bad idea, but is pointless, since their duty is to make the hard decisions that neither the Imperial Military or the Imperial Administration can make.
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
Tadashi wrote:The point is, questioning the Inquisition is not just a bad idea, but is pointless, since their duty is to make the hard decisions that neither the Imperial Military or the Imperial Administration can make.
And what does that have to do with anything? I'm not trying to be snarky, I'm just not understanding how this point fits into the discussion we were having. I pointed out that, legally, Chapter Masters have no authority over other Imperial institutions unless that authority is specially granted. You brought up the example of the Inquisitorial ruling on the Blood Ravens. I replied that the Inquisition may well have ruled based on political expediency, rather than strict legality, and you answered. . . DO NOT QUESTION THE INQUISITION!
To which I reply that if I were living in the far future, I certainly wouldn't. But since I'm not, I'll go right ahead and do that.
While I do agree with that, politics is politics. If the Inquisition/Imperium decides that Space Marines/Imperial Guard get priority, there's nothing anyone can do about it.
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
Oh, certainly. But, once again, that's politics not law. . . and in another circumstance, or with a different Chapter and different planet involved, it can just as easily be ruled the other way. The Inquisition does not uniformly favor the Space Marines.
Quite right. The Imperial Guard, or any other branch of the Imperial Military could be just as easily favored by the Inquisition as the Blood Ravens at Kronus. And Imperial Law is quite unclear in such situations, maybe even deliberately so.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/24 03:29:55
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
Now. . . we've gotten off-topic. Where were we? Oh, yes, Lord Commissars!
CAN a Lord Commissar execute a Space Marine? If he's powerful and well-connected enough, maybe. . . or rather, it isn't legal, but a powerful and well-connected Lord Commissar with a good enough excuse might be able to get away with it. It wouldn't earn him many friends, but I'm certainly not going to say it's impossible.
That said, the situations where it could be gotten away with would be very rare, and the situations where he would WANT to do so would also be very rare, so I'm inclined to think that it never (or practically never) comes up.
No, they can't. The Inquisition would have their head, especially if it's for the usual reasons.
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
Touching a Second Founding Chapter (Iron Hands, etc.) under those reasons. would lead to you being placed under early retirement, if you're lucky.
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
Tadashi wrote:Touching a Second Founding Chapter (Iron Hands, etc.) under those reasons. would lead to you being placed under early retirement, if you're lucky.
Iron hands aren't second founding.
Oh GOD he thought they were second founding.
And having them kill your men is more than sufficient reason for retaliation.
Moonblade cadre 3400 pts
24th Regiment of Tra 1800 pts
Laylith the whites host - High elves 3500 pts
Men of the holy shrine - Bretonnian 3200 pts
Scarsnick;s hoddies -Night gobbos 2100 pts
The guard of the east gate of Mordhiem - 3200pts
Sorry. I meant First Founding. And the Inquisition knows the Iron Hands tendencies. They wouldn't care about the Guardsmen, and actually might tell you to pull back your troops before the Iron Hands get there or you might get caught in 'friendly fire'.
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
Tadashi wrote:Sorry. I meant First Founding. And the Inquisition knows the Iron Hands tendencies. They wouldn't care about the Guardsmen, and actually might tell you to pull back your troops before the Iron Hands get there or you might get caught in 'friendly fire'.
They probably wouldn't care about a squad. A platoon/company getting attacked? Break out the artillery.
No. They won't. Especially when you consider that Astartes are only deployed in the worst situations, especially the Iron Hands and their descendants, so the Inquisition might just purge those regiments present, so less work later, or something like that...
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
Tadashi wrote:No. They won't. Especially when you consider that Astartes are only deployed in the worst situations, especially the Iron Hands and their descendants, so the Inquisition might just purge those regiments present, so less work later, or something like that...
So you think that astartes never fight xenos either? Or do you think that xenos-encountering IG need purging?
And having them kill your men is more than sufficient reason for retaliation.
The Iron Hands Chapter is, in fact, Second Founding. The Second Founding was the Chapters created from the breakup of the Legions, which included those chapters that retained the names of the Legions.
And I VERY much doubt the Imperium would attack the Iron Hands for killing a few Guardsmen, or even a few thousand Guardsmen.
And having them kill your men is more than sufficient reason for retaliation.
The Iron Hands Chapter is, in fact, Second Founding. The Second Founding was the Chapters created from the breakup of the Legions, which included those chapters that retained the names of the Legions.
And I VERY much doubt the Imperium would attack the Iron Hands for killing a few Guardsmen, or even a few thousand Guardsmen.
Correct. There are more than enough Guardsmen around for the Inquisition to sweep the matter under the rug. It's more trouble than it's worth to confront one of the Second Founding Chapters.
Oh, and thanks for clearing that up. I was also a bit confused over the First and Second Founding Chapters.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/24 04:32:49
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
The Inquisition destroyed an entire regiment and thousands of Navy crew because a couple guardsmen saw Grey Knights in action.
I imagine that the Inquisition can indeed value a SM more than some GM's.
However, if the Lord Commisar were to execute a SM under the belief that the SM was tainted by Chaos, I think the Inquisition would stay there hand, at least long enough to determine wither there's any truth to the CommiLord's statements. As much as the Inquisition might value the general feelings of an Astartes chapter over a mere Imperial Guardsmen, they will gladly pick a GM and tell the Astartes to screw off with their feelings if it means potentially rooting out corrupted Astartes. Another corrupted SM chapter is the scariest thing in the galaxy to the Imperium.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/24 07:39:45
Tadashi wrote:Sorry. I meant First Founding. And the Inquisition knows the Iron Hands tendencies. They wouldn't care about the Guardsmen, and actually might tell you to pull back your troops before the Iron Hands get there or you might get caught in 'friendly fire'.
The Inquisition probably wouldn't care about the entire incident unless it thraetens to spiral out of control ( by degenerating into open warfare between the chapter and the imperial guard for example ). What people forget is that Lord Comissars are rare, powerful and influential individuals, comparable to high ranking imperial generals. It would be a foolish or very determined Inquisitor who risks the Munitiorum's ire just because a Lord Comissar felt the need to retialate ( which he probably won't unless the Astartes seriously threaten the army's mission with their mass executions ) to blatant agression from a bunch of Astartes.
Besides that, space marines usualy have no legal authority over other imperial organisations. While a few infractions might be tolerated a chaptermaster who oversteps his bounds too often will be
brought back in line.
BlaxicanX wrote:The Inquisition destroyed an entire regiment and thousands of Navy crew because a couple guardsmen saw Grey Knights in action.
I imagine that the Inquisition can indeed value a SM more than some GM's.
To be fair, the GK part has more to do with the Inquisition protecting its own secrets rather than Space Marines. Keep in mind that the Grey Knights are a special case, a formation of Astartes that is pretty much the property of the Ordo Malleus (or did they cut this link in the 5E 'dex? I haven't read that one).
The Inquisition doesn't care about Guardsmen, but it also doesn't care about Space Marines. Friendly fire accidents are one thing, but when a Chapter clearly oversteps its bounds and starts to develop a habit of "executing" Guardsmen or attacking entire squads or companies out of malice, this starts being a case for an official Ordo Hereticus investigation - or SoB "vigilante justice".
The Marines' independence also means that a Chapter doesn't have some influential superior that will tell others to STFU. Only the Inquisition, which will try to "defuse" the situation by determining and punishing the guilty party (though this also involves politics, and some Chapters are on good terms with individual Inquisitors - but even then, those Inquisitors have rivals and will not be able to cover anything).
Ignatius wrote:I'd have to say that it would be fairly easy for a Lord Commissar to take out a simple "line" Astartes. Even with all the biological implants and sensor improvements, a political officer trained since they were pre pubescent with 50+ years of war experience would be precise enough with even a laspistol to drop a power armored superhuman before he could fully retaliate.
In a stand-up fight? The Astartes might not (or he might) have as much war experience (and a Lord Commissar is usually going to be spending a lot of time not actually fighting) as the Lord Commissar, but unless the Lord Commissar has significant augmentation he is going to be better physically. Faster reactions, stronger, better armour, able to take more damage. If they both knew what was happening, I'd still imagine the Astartes would prevail most of the time.
.
Moonblade cadre 3400 pts
24th Regiment of Tra 1800 pts
