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Squidmanlolz wrote:

I just want to break down this one point. Master Chief, while the other Spartans were alive, was "average" at best, where the other Spartans had cooler abilities that seemed more useful (speed, accuracy, etc.) Master Chief was "lucky" this is why he is "better" than the others. Any of the Spartans COULD have done what he did, but it was his destiny (plot-armor) that lead him to be considered a hero, he is not smarter, stronger or better than an average Spartan in any way, he is simply "lucky" and destined to succeed. It's impossible to compare him to any SM because no SM has the luck/ plot armor to defeat the kind of enemy that he did (almost) single-handed.

Basically any named Space Marine gets a truly ludicrous level of plot armor. I mean really, genuinely stupid. Master Chief ain't unique in that. . .

DeadlySquirrel wrote:

Squidmanlolz wrote:

Ronin-Sage wrote:
B) It's Master Chief, and it doesn't seem like the average spartan would be as awesome as he is

I just want to break down this one point. Master Chief, while the other Spartans were alive, was "average" at best, where the other Spartans had cooler abilities that seemed more useful (speed, accuracy, etc.) Master Chief was "lucky" this is why he is "better" than the others. Any of the Spartans COULD have done what he did, but it was his destiny (plot-armor) that lead him to be considered a hero, he is not smarter, stronger or better than an average Spartan in any way, he is simply "lucky" and destined to succeed. It's impossible to compare him to any SM because no SM has the luck/ plot armor to defeat the kind of enemy that he did (almost) single-handed.

Are you implying that John has more plot-armour than Draigo?

And IIRC, John had extra training and modifications to allow him to carry Cortana. Afterall, he has a ship's AI in him to protect.

I don't think the conversations between John and Cortana would have been as casual as they were in-game if either had been extensively trained in dealing with one another, they would probably be thinking a lot dryer and safer rather than cracking the occasional joke or sly comeback, but I don't know for sure.


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BeRzErKeR wrote:

Squidmanlolz wrote:

I just want to break down this one point. Master Chief, while the other Spartans were alive, was "average" at best, where the other Spartans had cooler abilities that seemed more useful (speed, accuracy, etc.) Master Chief was "lucky" this is why he is "better" than the others. Any of the Spartans COULD have done what he did, but it was his destiny (plot-armor) that lead him to be considered a hero, he is not smarter, stronger or better than an average Spartan in any way, he is simply "lucky" and destined to succeed. It's impossible to compare him to any SM because no SM has the luck/ plot armor to defeat the kind of enemy that he did (almost) single-handed.

Basically any named Space Marine gets a truly ludicrous level of plot armor. I mean really, genuinely stupid. Master Chief ain't unique in that. . .

Enough to cripple an entire collective of militaristic space-faring species and hold off a parasite which wiped out the most powerful beings ever in existence?

Surely the casual jokes and such were signs they were accustomed to one another and knew each other intimately? Otherwise, I doubt Cortana would have trusted John when he did all that crazy stuff.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:Surely the casual jokes and such were signs they were accustomed to one another and knew each other intimately? Otherwise, I doubt Cortana would have trusted John when he did all that crazy stuff.

She knew his record for luck before they ever met, she states that in the Halo 3 intro. I don't think that she ever could doubt him.

Im not going to get into the debate, but im just going to point out some facts to consider.

About Spartans able to survive atmosphere reentry and impact... did he have assistance like flying gear or jet pack?
or indeed a free fall?

Stormraven needs special ceramite plates to do the re-entry, and that durability makes them resilient even against melta weaponry.

You break bones when you fall off even 2 floor buildings. You turn into flesh milk shake when you fall off high rises.

Armor will not help, because it increases the terminal velocity making the fall worse. No amount of space marine armor will help a drop from atmosphere.

If anything can survive those 2 mentioned above, especially the combination, you can be sure a mere bolt gun will do nothing.

True, true. But still, luck can only go so far. Also, why else would the Chief go back and risk his life again and again looking for Cortana?

Squidmanlolz wrote:

Enough to cripple an entire collective of militaristic space-faring species and hold off a parasite which wiped out the most powerful beings ever in existence?

Basically, yeah.

Lysander; Fights his way off an entire planet of Iron Warriors and their horrific mutant/cyborg servants bare-handed, rescuing prisoners along the way, kills a bunch of Chaos Space Marines (while naked and unarmed, remember) to take their gear, then hijacks a starship and flies away with it.

Marneus Calgar: Punches a literal Avatar of the God of War to death. Stands in a breached wall and holds off an entire Ork Waaagh for 24 hours solid.

Kaldor Draigo: I don't think I even need to get into it.

Kayvaan Shrike; Trapped behind Ork lines for three solid years with no support, and not only survives but actually causes enough havoc to shorten the campaign by, literally, decades.

So. . . yeah. Plot armor is not rare. They're spreading it on with a trowel.

LunaHound wrote:

About Spartans able to survive atmosphere reentry and impact... did he have assistance like flying gear or jet pack?
or indeed a free fall?

Nothing more than a big hunk of debris from a Covenant (formerly Forerunner) space-craft wreck.

I have to note that his armor went into a lock-up mode, transferring the brunt of the impact to the gel-layer of the armor (Spartan armor has layers (like onions (and ogres)))

It was a free fall. And if there was some debris, even that didn't make it...

And yes, he did go into lock-up...

DeadlySquirrel wrote:The Chief managed to survive entering the Earth's atmosphere and hitting the impact... Surely he could survive a bolter round or several...

In literally every single halo game, falling 20 feet will drain most of your shield, and any higher will kill you.

Spartans in the Spartan 2 program are all equipped with reentry packs. Their back is actually a jet pack. (Halo 4)
But yeah. They are not on paar with a space marine. A Space marine would kill two of them at once. But three is a different task competely.
Spartan III's on the other hand would get their arses handed to them like a silver platter.

Though armor lockup did actually damage Master Chief's Suit....

Look; we all agree that you can't use tabletop stats as basis for a 40k fluff discussion, right?

If that's so, then likewise, you can't use HALO game occurrences to argue HALO fluff.

im2randomghgh wrote:

DeadlySquirrel wrote:The Chief managed to survive entering the Earth's atmosphere and hitting the impact... Surely he could survive a bolter round or several...

In literally every single halo game, falling 20 feet will drain most of your shield, and any higher will kill you.

But when you fall 20 feet, you don't have a big chunk of a spaceship in your hands...

im2randomghgh wrote:

DeadlySquirrel wrote:The Chief managed to survive entering the Earth's atmosphere and hitting the impact... Surely he could survive a bolter round or several...

In literally every single halo game, falling 20 feet will drain most of your shield, and any higher will kill you.

And yet, you can survive atmospheric entry. Such is life.

You Know Spartan 117 is actually the luckiest son of a gun in the entire halo universe right?
The other spartans died left and right.
Very few of them survived.

Asherian Command wrote:Spartans in the Spartan 2 program are all equipped with reentry packs. Their back is actually a jet pack. (Halo 4)
But yeah. They are not on paar with a space marine. A Space marine would kill two of them at once. But three is a different task competely.
Spartan III's on the other hand would get their arses handed to them like a silver platter.

Though armor lockup did actually damage Master Chief's Suit....

Spartan IIIs fight a very different war than their counterparts, they typically specialize in camouflage and being out numbered and over-powered by the enemy and most of their missions in the fluff are greatly successful, if not at a huge sacrifice but still. 300 Spartan IIIs were able to capture a major Covenant outpost, on an asteroid while under attack from one of the largest Covenant forces ever seen in one place.

Anyone got the kill figures of SPARTANS to Elites/Brutes? Then we can compare them to SM vs CSM ratios and see how it works out, since both are fighting their equals...

Enough to cripple an entire collective of militaristic space-faring species and hold off a parasite which wiped out the most powerful beings ever in existence?

The forerunners weren't physically more powerful than humans, and even in the halo universe they weren't the most powerful (precursors). Other than the halo arrays which are decidedly quite impressive, the forerunners weren't any more advanced than most of the 40k races.

Obviously they are more advanced than orks.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Enough to cripple an entire collective of militaristic space-faring species and hold off a parasite which wiped out the most powerful beings ever in existence?

The forerunners weren't physically more powerful than humans, and even in the halo universe they weren't the most powerful (precursors). Other than the halo arrays which are decidedly quite impressive, the forerunners weren't any more advanced than most of the 40k races.

Obviously they are more advanced than orks.

Your imperial proganda is full of lies. Orks are advanced they just dont care about it or realize it.

If they have some godly ingrained trait that allow them to loot anything through ork magik, then by all means its advanced.

LunaHound wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Enough to cripple an entire collective of militaristic space-faring species and hold off a parasite which wiped out the most powerful beings ever in existence?

The forerunners weren't physically more powerful than humans, and even in the halo universe they weren't the most powerful (precursors). Other than the halo arrays which are decidedly quite impressive, the forerunners weren't any more advanced than most of the 40k races.

Obviously they are more advanced than orks.

Your imperial proganda is full of lies. Orks are advanced they just dont care about it or realize it.

If they have some godly ingrained trait that allow them to loot anything through ork magik, then by all means its advanced.

Yeah, but they don't build planetoids or engage in biological engineering beyond sewing additional body parts on to orks to make them more killy.

I can't find exact numbers for covie losses, but here's what I've got:

Humans lost 23 Bil. civilians and military + up to hundreds of thousands of separatists. approx. 26/41 Spartan IIs are presumed to have died to the covenant.

The Covenant lost their holy city, MOST loyalist forces, at least 2 arbiters, at least one Brute high chieftain, and the three prophets.

im2randomghgh wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Enough to cripple an entire collective of militaristic space-faring species and hold off a parasite which wiped out the most powerful beings ever in existence?

The forerunners weren't physically more powerful than humans, and even in the halo universe they weren't the most powerful (precursors). Other than the halo arrays which are decidedly quite impressive, the forerunners weren't any more advanced than most of the 40k races.

Obviously they are more advanced than orks.

Your imperial proganda is full of lies. Orks are advanced they just dont care about it or realize it.

If they have some godly ingrained trait that allow them to loot anything through ork magik, then by all means its advanced.

Yeah, but they don't build planetoids or engage in biological engineering beyond sewing additional body parts on to orks to make them more killy.

One can say its because they dont give a **** about it.

e.g comparing you and I to other human beings, we arn't rocket scientists. Yet does that mean we arnt genetically capable of it?
No, it just meant we didn't go that route.

LunaHound wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Enough to cripple an entire collective of militaristic space-faring species and hold off a parasite which wiped out the most powerful beings ever in existence?

The forerunners weren't physically more powerful than humans, and even in the halo universe they weren't the most powerful (precursors). Other than the halo arrays which are decidedly quite impressive, the forerunners weren't any more advanced than most of the 40k races.

Obviously they are more advanced than orks.

Your imperial proganda is full of lies. Orks are advanced they just dont care about it or realize it.

If they have some godly ingrained trait that allow them to loot anything through ork magik, then by all means its advanced.

Yeah, but they don't build planetoids or engage in biological engineering beyond sewing additional body parts on to orks to make them more killy.

One can say its because they dont give a **** about it.

e.g comparing you and I to other human beings, we arn't rocket scientists. Yet does that mean we arnt genetically capable of it?
No, it just meant we didn't go that route.

Less with the talky more with the choppy!

LunaHound wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Enough to cripple an entire collective of militaristic space-faring species and hold off a parasite which wiped out the most powerful beings ever in existence?

The forerunners weren't physically more powerful than humans, and even in the halo universe they weren't the most powerful (precursors). Other than the halo arrays which are decidedly quite impressive, the forerunners weren't any more advanced than most of the 40k races.

Obviously they are more advanced than orks.

Your imperial proganda is full of lies. Orks are advanced they just dont care about it or realize it.

If they have some godly ingrained trait that allow them to loot anything through ork magik, then by all means its advanced.

Yeah, but they don't build planetoids or engage in biological engineering beyond sewing additional body parts on to orks to make them more killy.

One can say its because they dont give a **** about it.

e.g comparing you and I to other human beings, we arn't rocket scientists. Yet does that mean we arnt genetically capable of it?
No, it just meant we didn't go that route.

Also, almost all covenant tech is taken DIRECTLY from forerunner artifacts, they loot their gods and don't even have the decency of Orks to fix it up "Good an' Proppa',"

Exactly Asherian :3

Squidmanlolz wrote:I can't find exact numbers for covie losses, but here's what I've got:

Humans lost 23 Bil. civilians and military + up to hundreds of thousands of separatists. approx. 26/41 Spartan IIs are presumed to have died to the covenant.

The Covenant lost their holy city, MOST loyalist forces, at least 2 arbiters, at least one Brute high chieftain, and the three prophets.

Humans also lost most of their planets with having caused comparatively little damage, and covie losses would be quite a bit less considering that they have a better K/D in naval combat, and most elites/hunters/skirmishers rack up the kills. P.S. Source for your numbers?

And also, there were 75 Spartan IIs. All but 33 were killed/disfigured by the augmentation, because ONI sucks at screening for compatible genetics.

Of those 33, Master chief, Linda, Naomi, Victor, Fredrick, Kelly and black team. 9 survivors who aren't crippled or RETIRED. That's right, spartans retire, because they GET OLD.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Squidmanlolz wrote:I can't find exact numbers for covie losses, but here's what I've got:

Humans lost 23 Bil. civilians and military + up to hundreds of thousands of separatists. approx. 26/41 Spartan IIs are presumed to have died to the covenant.

The Covenant lost their holy city, MOST loyalist forces, at least 2 arbiters, at least one Brute high chieftain, and the three prophets.

Humans also lost most of their planets with having caused comparatively little damage, and covie losses would be quite a bit less considering that they have a better K/D in naval combat, and most elites/hunters/skirmishers rack up the kills. P.S. Source for your numbers?

And also, there were 75 Spartan IIs. All but 33 were killed/disfigured by the augmentation, because ONI sucks at screening for compatible genetics.

Of those 33, Master chief, Linda, Naomi, Victor, Fredrick, Kelly and black team. 9 survivors who aren't crippled or RETIRED. That's right, spartans retire, because they GET OLD.

http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Human-Covenant_war
I know it's a wikia, but it's usually spot-on if not close on information.

As do Space Marines... Everything gets old, everything dies.

Squidmanlolz wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Squidmanlolz wrote:I can't find exact numbers for covie losses, but here's what I've got:

Humans lost 23 Bil. civilians and military + up to hundreds of thousands of separatists. approx. 26/41 Spartan IIs are presumed to have died to the covenant.

The Covenant lost their holy city, MOST loyalist forces, at least 2 arbiters, at least one Brute high chieftain, and the three prophets.

Humans also lost most of their planets with having caused comparatively little damage, and covie losses would be quite a bit less considering that they have a better K/D in naval combat, and most elites/hunters/skirmishers rack up the kills. P.S. Source for your numbers?

And also, there were 75 Spartan IIs. All but 33 were killed/disfigured by the augmentation, because ONI sucks at screening for compatible genetics.

Of those 33, Master chief, Linda, Naomi, Victor, Fredrick, Kelly and black team. 9 survivors who aren't crippled or RETIRED. That's right, spartans retire, because they GET OLD.

http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Human-Covenant_war
I know it's a wikia, but it's usually spot-on if not close on information.

Exactly where I read it. Click the links, not all of those spartans were combatants.


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DeadlySquirrel wrote:As do Space Marines... Everything gets old, everything dies.

No. Dante is 1200 years old, the guy from Salamanders was a non dreadnought who had been alive since the heresy, the CSM are all millenia old, bjorn is 11000, Lysander is 700 etc.

Space marines might have their hair grey slightly, but that is the only sign of aging in them.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Squidmanlolz wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Squidmanlolz wrote:I can't find exact numbers for covie losses, but here's what I've got:

Humans lost 23 Bil. civilians and military + up to hundreds of thousands of separatists. approx. 26/41 Spartan IIs are presumed to have died to the covenant.

The Covenant lost their holy city, MOST loyalist forces, at least 2 arbiters, at least one Brute high chieftain, and the three prophets.

Humans also lost most of their planets with having caused comparatively little damage, and covie losses would be quite a bit less considering that they have a better K/D in naval combat, and most elites/hunters/skirmishers rack up the kills. P.S. Source for your numbers?

And also, there were 75 Spartan IIs. All but 33 were killed/disfigured by the augmentation, because ONI sucks at screening for compatible genetics.

Of those 33, Master chief, Linda, Naomi, Victor, Fredrick, Kelly and black team. 9 survivors who aren't crippled or RETIRED. That's right, spartans retire, because they GET OLD.

http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Human-Covenant_war
I know it's a wikia, but it's usually spot-on if not close on information.

Exactly where I read it. Click the links, not all of those spartans were combatants.

I only counted the ones who survived augmentation and entered combat.