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Squidmanlolz wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Squidmanlolz wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Squidmanlolz wrote:I can't find exact numbers for covie losses, but here's what I've got:

Humans lost 23 Bil. civilians and military + up to hundreds of thousands of separatists. approx. 26/41 Spartan IIs are presumed to have died to the covenant.

The Covenant lost their holy city, MOST loyalist forces, at least 2 arbiters, at least one Brute high chieftain, and the three prophets.

Humans also lost most of their planets with having caused comparatively little damage, and covie losses would be quite a bit less considering that they have a better K/D in naval combat, and most elites/hunters/skirmishers rack up the kills. P.S. Source for your numbers?

And also, there were 75 Spartan IIs. All but 33 were killed/disfigured by the augmentation, because ONI sucks at screening for compatible genetics.

Of those 33, Master chief, Linda, Naomi, Victor, Fredrick, Kelly and black team. 9 survivors who aren't crippled or RETIRED. That's right, spartans retire, because they GET OLD.

http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Human-Covenant_war
I know it's a wikia, but it's usually spot-on if not close on information.

Exactly where I read it. Click the links, not all of those spartans were combatants.

I only counted the ones who survived augmentation and entered combat.

Then you missed the part at the very top of the page that explicitly stated that 33 Spartan IIs survived augmentation without side effects?

You cant count the chaos space marines because time moves differently for them. For all we know its only been 5 minutes for them. Or 100000 years.

Something to consider: would a brute with brute shot be similar in strength and armament to a space marine (with inferior armor)? Explosive rounds, very physically strong, etc. in first strike (a book), a spartan II (Grace, I think?)is killed by three rounds from a brute shot, and John is almost killed in hand to hand combat with one. Anyways, I would say a space marine would win, as fluff-wise they are made out to be more powerful than I felt Spartans were in the halo books, which is understandable, as they have technology and the like that is millennia more advanced.

I think I'm gona try and stat me a Spartan II:

WS 4
BS 4
S 4
T 3
I 5
LD 10
SV 3+/5++

Spartan II armor can help the occupant survive planet fall without any additional equipment (like a drop pod). That being said I highly doubt a bolter could reliably kill a Spartan. Because of that I rate it a 3+/5++.

They are better trained than even Navy Seals, being taken at young ages and trained from there. So they are atleast par in fighting skill and aim to a Tactical Marine.

They recieve similar physical augmentations to thier strength, so they should be par there. If not par they have to be stronger than a guardsman, so that is where I got S 4.

They are trained relentlessly in the areas of acrobatics and speed, so thier initiative should be high, thier augmentations also effect this, for that reason I give them I 5. Though that might have only been specific ones... I'm going off the limited knowledge I have.

This is speculation of course, and just my opinion, but I think this would be close to their 40k stat line.

Math hammer that and you find that a Tactical marine is only 25% better at shooting, entirely because a bolter is better tan an auto gun. And a marine is only 27% better in melee. That being said in a two on one my money is on the Spartans, but a one on one the marine takes it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LunaHound wrote:Armor will not help, because it increases the terminal velocity making the fall worse. No amount of space marine armor will help a drop from atmosphere.

If anything can survive those 2 mentioned above, especially the combination, you can be sure a mere bolt gun will do nothing.

Terminal velocity is the same regaurdless of weight... That is why it is terminal, it can not be surpassed... That is physics.

Noble 6 or what ever his name is from Reach survives planet fall and 1337 does as well.

I agree.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:IIIs took about as long as astartes to make, II more like custodes (I would guess, there is no official length of time stated as being necessary for custodes)

Doesn't it take about a hundreds years before a scout becomes a full fledged space marine, and still have a long time before becoming a tactical marine?

Yes.

No,

Scouts are completely ready for the Black Carapace when they are between 16-18 years of age which is when they have completed all other implants and their training.

If there are openings in any of the Companies they will immediatly join an existing squad or form a new squad of marines.

if there arn't openings(rare) then they will wait for one(rarely long)


Initiates are taken betwen 12-14 years old and are ready at 16-18. Basically a 4 year minimum production time(and a failure rate of around 60%)

Dr.Dakka wrote:If anything can survive those 2 mentioned above, especially the combination, you can be sure a mere bolt gun will do nothing.

Terminal velocity is the same regaurdless of weight... That is why it is terminal, it can not be surpassed... That is physics.

Noble 6 or what ever his name is from Reach survives planet fall and 1337 does as well.

I agree.

where

Vt = terminal velocity,
m = mass of the falling object,
g = acceleration due to gravity,
Cd = drag coefficient,
ρ = density of the fluid through which the object is falling, and
A = projected area of the object.

In red, the suit of armor depending how light or heavy it is, will change the red parts. As the armor isnt light in density, nor is it projected in a wide area like wings
nor does it effect drag like streamline, it will effect it.

Hm you are right, I Google it, apologies. I made the rookie mistake of assuming that human terminal velocity applied tp everything.

No worries, physics is confusing with the formulas and such.

As long as it makes sense and we can apply it in real life xD

LunaHound wrote:No worries, physics is confusing with the formulas and such.

As long as it makes sense and we can apply it in real life xD

Lol yea I am a Psychology major not a physicist, but I love physics. I try to learn as much as i can, but with the majority of my studies in a completely different area, I find my knowledge lacking more often than not.

Maybe one day I will pursue my love for physics, but I have to get my doctorate in psychology first or my woman will kill me... Damn my intellectual ADD.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:If we are the only sentient life in the galaxy, then it is pretty much fethed.

I woudn't count on that. Galaxy is huge with millions of planets that can support life for sure.

Dr.Dakka wrote:I think I'm gona try and stat me a Spartan II:

WS 4
BS 4
S 4
T 3
I 5
LD 10
SV 3+/5++

S4? Really? Why? Where S4 = double the strengthof S3 (Guardsman vs Marine) it's more like 3.5. Again, Initiative 5? 4, maximum. I would call it a 4+/5++ save too, good armour but not as good as Power armour.

Dr.Dakka wrote:
They are better trained than even Navy Seals, being taken at young ages and trained from there. So they are atleast par in fighting skill and aim to a Tactical Marine.

Except they don't get a good hundered years training before they hit the actual battlefield. Ergo, the tactical marine would be at least 10 times more experienced than a Spartan.

Dr.Dakka wrote:
They recieve similar physical augmentations to thier strength, so they should be par there. If not par they have to be stronger than a guardsman, so that is where I got S 4.

I reference my "3.5" argument above.

Dr.Dakka wrote:
They are trained relentlessly in the areas of acrobatics and speed, so thier initiative should be high, thier augmentations also effect this, for that reason I give them I 5. Though that might have only been specific ones... I'm going off the limited knowledge I have.

Again, calling it at I4. I5 is Eldar fast, and Spartans are not Eldar fast.

Dr.Dakka wrote:
This is speculation of course, and just my opinion, but I think this would be close to their 40k stat line.

To be fair, I agree with you, they are roughly this stat line, but people seem to be vastly overestimating the Spartans and disregarding the better parts of SM fluff.

Dr.Dakka wrote:
Math hammer that and you find that a Tactical marine is only 25% better at shooting, entirely because a bolter is better tan an auto gun. And a marine is only 27% better in melee. That being said in a two on one my money is on the Spartans, but a one on one the marine takes it.

Fine. Standard weapons 1v1 the Marine would probably win.

Soon as the marine gets any specialisation past a flamer the Spartan is boned.
If he's a devestator the Spartan's boned.
If he gets a jump pack, chainsword and Bolt Pistol the Spartan's boned.
Grey Knight? Boned.
Terminator? Boned.
Captain+? Trololol. No question.

And for the record, despite being three pages late, the whole "Relentless argument can be applied to SM as well going on the gameplay from Space Marine. Move+ shoot lascannon? Yup, obviously every Marine is relentless.

liquidjoshi wrote:

Dr.Dakka wrote:I think I'm gona try and stat me a Spartan II:

WS 4
BS 4
S 4
T 3
I 5
LD 10
SV 3+/5++

S4? Really? Why? Where S4 = double the strengthof S3 (Guardsman vs Marine) it's more like 3.5. Again, Initiative 5? 4, maximum. I would call it a 4+/5++ save too, good armour but not as good as Power armour.

Dr.Dakka wrote:
They are better trained than even Navy Seals, being taken at young ages and trained from there. So they are atleast par in fighting skill and aim to a Tactical Marine.

Except they don't get a good hundered years training before they hit the actual battlefield. Ergo, the tactical marine would be at least 10 times more experienced than a Spartan.

Dr.Dakka wrote:
They recieve similar physical augmentations to thier strength, so they should be par there. If not par they have to be stronger than a guardsman, so that is where I got S 4.

I reference my "3.5" argument above.

Dr.Dakka wrote:
They are trained relentlessly in the areas of acrobatics and speed, so thier initiative should be high, thier augmentations also effect this, for that reason I give them I 5. Though that might have only been specific ones... I'm going off the limited knowledge I have.

Again, calling it at I4. I5 is Eldar fast, and Spartans are not Eldar fast.

Dr.Dakka wrote:
This is speculation of course, and just my opinion, but I think this would be close to their 40k stat line.

To be fair, I agree with you, they are roughly this stat line, but people seem to be vastly overestimating the Spartans and disregarding the better parts of SM fluff.

Dr.Dakka wrote:
Math hammer that and you find that a Tactical marine is only 25% better at shooting, entirely because a bolter is better tan an auto gun. And a marine is only 27% better in melee. That being said in a two on one my money is on the Spartans, but a one on one the marine takes it.

Fine. Standard weapons 1v1 the Marine would probably win.

Soon as the marine gets any specialisation past a flamer the Spartan is boned.
If he's a devestator the Spartan's boned.
If he gets a jump pack, chainsword and Bolt Pistol the Spartan's boned.
Grey Knight? Boned.
Terminator? Boned.
Captain+? Trololol. No question.

And for the record, despite being three pages late, the whole "Relentless argument can be applied to SM as well going on the gameplay from Space Marine. Move+ shoot lascannon? Yup, obviously every Marine is relentless.

-_- Spartans regularly rip whole chunks off of armored vehicles with their bare hands.... My judgement of S 4 stands in my opinion. But if 3 is indeed half of S 4 than I up my estimate to S 5 because of said ripping apart of tanks...

A Spartan in red in the Halo cartoon series moved.so quickly she dodged bullets and out maneuvered a physically overpowering opponent. This sounds exactly like Eldar fluff, and even guardians are I 5.

Spartans have access to Depleted Uranium Sniper rifles that regularly destroy armored vehicles and can do this on the run with high accuracy at range.

Spartans have a Spartans Laser, which as previously mentioned is a lascannon, and can fire it accurately on the move.

They also have mobile heavy weapons platforms they can carry including Plasma and Gattling turrets and missile turrets with homing capabilities...

Spartans have access to Plasma Weapons of all sorts that ignore armor...

Don't make it an arms race, the tech in both galaxies is about par, Save the psychic machine spirity stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also Spartans also have jump packs and plasma swords(power weapons). They can also go invisible, become temporarily invincible, and deploy decoy to distract the enemy...

Honestly I'm starting to lean more towards the Spartans now. They have more gadgets and I think that might be the deciding factor.

Also, it takes about 3 months to a year of solid training to become deadly proficient with fire arms or hand to hand combat. I mean repetition is everything in martial arts and shooting (I am an enthusiast in both categories) but I dont think a hundred ears is going to make a difference over 15. Both time periods are ridiculously long, and given training periods like that there has to be a point where your training is no longer improving your skills.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also if a Space Marine's armor can't survive re-entlry and a spartan's can, how is a Spartan's armor then worse then a Marine's?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wow I renig all of my posts, I realize now that 40k is so insanely over the top in its bull gak fluff no other sci fi universe could compete. Seriously starting tp tire of 40k fluff, too much ridiculously nonsense, not enough depth and character development... This is like comparing Firefly to the Expendables...

Spartans have experience with the enemy's weapons and can use pretty much whatever they pick up after minimal training.
^(Remember, Spartan IIs were trained before Humans made contact with the Covenant, so they knew nothing about Covie tech and were still able to use it after a little while.

Your underestimating the bolter. Its the same str as a .50 cal HMG with more penetrating power, in game stats. Its most likely on par with the sniper rifle, which is a horrible sniper rifle, every time it fires it leaves a trail right back the firer. So counter sniper is going to be easy.

On the "Re entry "point, I was just informed he had a jet pack. So your armour point is moot.

I actually LOLed at "Spartan Laser is a las cannnon" It is not, it is more comparible to a Multilaser. A rocket launcher is a better weapon.

Space marines can punch apart tanks too, both in fluff and on table top. Sorry Covenant tanks would have an AV of 8, clearly Spartans are up against inferior foes than Space Marines.

Well, I can see the Halo fanbois have deployed in force, so I'm just going to jump ship now.

Just remember: Psykers. Have a nice day, spartans.

A better way to visualise this whole thing would be to compare playing as a spartan on "space marine" and vice verca. This helps me reach my own conclusions very well.

liquidjoshi wrote:

Dr.Dakka wrote:
They are better trained than even Navy Seals, being taken at young ages and trained from there. So they are atleast par in fighting skill and aim to a Tactical Marine.

Except they don't get a good hundered years training before they hit the actual battlefield. Ergo, the tactical marine would be at least 10 times more experienced than a Spartan.

Sorry, chap, but that's just not true. The amount of years a SM spends as a scout is, as Grey Templar says, a hell of a lot shorter than a hundred years. In fact, it's somewhere between 4-10, as sources vary.
Also, training and experience are not the same thing. Whereas training can at least prepare you for a battle, it's got nothing on actual experience when it comes down to a fight to the death.
I stand by my original estimate. A SM could take on 2, maybe 3 SPARTAN-IIs and still stand a better than 50% chance of victory, though it would almost certainly result in the SM taking some serious wounds to do so.
Still, more kudos for the battle-brother in his chapter's annals, if he survives, so I don't think he'd mind.

Kinda hard to compare 2 soldiers 1 on 1. Not even 2 real life speacial force guys are equal for a direct comparison to another force. In the world of warfare you have to at least compare them at a squad level. Discounting the Heroes of either side most are trained to work as a group. If you want a solo from 40k IoM then use custodes not sm.

Sorry I don't get how a Howling Banshee can be an even match for a Marine and that is ok, and no one questions it. But when an invisible man with the same basic weapons (Spartans) is considered in the same fight, the fight is obviously the Marine's...

A banshee is like a Spartans with lower strength and no invulnerable save...

Dr.Dakka wrote:Sorry I don't get how a Howling Banshee can be an even match for a Marine and that is ok, and no one questions it. But when an invisible man with the same basic weapons (Spartans) is considered in the same fight, the fight is obviously the Marine's...

A banshee is like a Spartans with lower strength and no invulnerable save...

Except that a Howling Banshee has both vastly superior technology and literally millenia of experience at fighting. A SPARTAN, on the other hand, has a few years, maximum.

Bluntly, the rawest Space Marine, just elevated from the Scout company and given his power armor, has fought on more battlefields in more varied conditions against more dangerous enemies with worse odds on his side than any SPARTAN except possibly John-117 did. They're both science-fantasy superhuman soldiers. They both use impossible technology to fight hilariously inconceivable foes. The Space Marine, though, has been doing it for longer, and is almost certainly better at it.

I'm stating Halo with my friend, we are assembling a proxy army now. Battle report will be posted.


Warthog

Or trucks are Av 10 and are scrap metal, Warthog would be Av 10 open topped. Weapon S 4 Ap 6. Basically a stubber.

Scorpion

Av 12-13 considering the last decision. We will say Av 12 because predators are Av 12. Weapon would be an auto cannon S 7 Ap 4. Would have to be to be considering the weapons are about the same.

weapons

Standard

Assault rifle
S 3, it is an auto gun after all. I would make it R 18 assault 2.

Battle rifle
Same as las gun, it is a strait auto gun.

odst
Same as kasarkin

marine
same as veteran

spartan
kasarkin stats with higher Strength and armor. This makes him S 4 with a Sv of 3+ and an invulnerable save so i give that a 5+.

More weapons.

Missile launcher
Standard S8 Ap3

Spartan Laser
Stronger than a missile launcher, able to reliably kill scorpion in one or two shots. Sounds like a lascannon, but I have aanother cool idea.
S8 Ap2 R38" Lance *
*Hits every unit in a strait line once.

Gattling turret
basically a heavy stubber S4 Ap6 R36" Heavy 3


Automatically Appended Next Post:
New change my friend has a point Spartans are better than odst at shooting, source is halo cronicals. So Bs 5 is awarded to them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Covie 40k stats

Covie Transport ships(can't remember name)

Av 13 front side and rear. Open Top

2, S 7 Ap 2 plasma cannon turrets

2, S 6 Ap 4 Plasma cannons Heavy 3

Capacity 20

That is the best we could do with that. They are heavily armored, and armed, and have insane capacities.

Hunter
S 5
T 6
W 2
Sv 3+
Their gun would be S7 Ap2 Rapid Fire Imo.

I believe that the game designers said that the difficulty setting to consider for the actualy capabilities of the weaponry of Halo was on the highest(or 2nd highest) difficulty setting.

The game is pretty easy on the lower levels, but once you get to the higher levels your Shield can barely survive more then a couple of hits from any type of weapon. The shield is basically a stop-gap protection measure till you find cover.

Power Armor on the other hand is superior to cover except against things specifically designed to kill it.

What kills power armor? Krak Missiles, Plasma weaponry, and power weapons. Krak missiles are anti-tank weapons and only just render PA useless. Plasma and PW are the only things specifically designed to cut through PA. Anything worse then PA is weak enough to be able to kill with volume of fire.

But, Space Marines still do use cover to their advantage(as much as their bulk allows them to) so they arn't going to just be foolishly walking through enemy fire. Space Marines know they arn't invincible. They don't fit the common misconception people have of them not using cover and military tactics(thats just Marine players on the table top and has to do with game mechanics and not fluff. if multiple saves could be taken, Marines would stick to cover a ton)

PA just gives them Marine the ability to withstand massive punishment if he does get hit so he doesn't have to spend tons of energy and time taking cover instead of purging the enemy. Sparten armor is similer to modern body armor, which is basically a last resort protection for the soldier. It can keep you from dying and it will stop certain rounds at certain ranges and angles, but it isn't a full spectrum protection system.

Dr.Dakka wrote:I think I'm gona try and stat me a Spartan II:

WS 4
BS 4
S 4
T 3
I 5
LD 10
SV 3+/5++

Spartan II armor can help the occupant survive planet fall without any additional equipment (like a drop pod). That being said I highly doubt a bolter could reliably kill a Spartan. Because of that I rate it a 3+/5++.

They are better trained than even Navy Seals, being taken at young ages and trained from there. So they are atleast par in fighting skill and aim to a Tactical Marine.

They recieve similar physical augmentations to thier strength, so they should be par there. If not par they have to be stronger than a guardsman, so that is where I got S 4.

They are trained relentlessly in the areas of acrobatics and speed, so thier initiative should be high, thier augmentations also effect this, for that reason I give them I 5. Though that might have only been specific ones... I'm going off the limited knowledge I have.

This is speculation of course, and just my opinion, but I think this would be close to their 40k stat line.

Math hammer that and you find that a Tactical marine is only 25% better at shooting, entirely because a bolter is better tan an auto gun. And a marine is only 27% better in melee. That being said in a two on one my money is on the Spartans, but a one on one the marine takes it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LunaHound wrote:Armor will not help, because it increases the terminal velocity making the fall worse. No amount of space marine armor will help a drop from atmosphere.

If anything can survive those 2 mentioned above, especially the combination, you can be sure a mere bolt gun will do nothing.

Terminal velocity is the same regaurdless of weight... That is why it is terminal, it can not be surpassed... That is physics.

Noble 6 or what ever his name is from Reach survives planet fall and 1337 does as well.

I agree.

@ the last part, about surviving planetfall, remember that they die in the game after fall 25 feet.

@ the red part, I highly doubt they would have WS 4 because as we can see in the game we see they have limited skill in melee and rely on the fact that they are stronger than grunts are tough to kill.

@ the bold part, It would probable be 4+ with MAYBE a 6++. Read the IA3 description of FW armour and you'll be amazed at how resilient and tough it is, and it gets 4+. Space marine armour seems on average about 2-4" thick, and made of ceramite which is worth 3.8x it's thickness in steel. And 6++ is a maybe because in the game weapons like launchers can kill them through their armour AND shield, meaning that it isn't especially strong as a shield and is more like an augmentation for their armour, so 3+ MAY be somewhat appropriate if we include the shield. Remember, 5++ would mean they can take direct hits from rail guns and lascannons.

@ the italic part, This part indirectly compares SEALs to space marines, which is folly. SEALs=veteran guardsmen. Spartans are certainly more elite than modern day Spec. ops assaulters, but remember space marines are also taken young, and only ones who, without training, are usually already killers from worlds with the harshest life possible. In Sons of Dorn, the three neophytes were all about 12 and they had each killed MULTIPLE fully grown adult humans in a big, chaotic battle. The boys recruited to be space marines are the kind who, if they weren't discovered by the SM, would likely end up amongst the greatest heroes of the Imperial guard-Lord Commissars, warmasters etc. Their fighting skill would be far more than spartans. Especially since their training (hypno-conditioning, scouts, devastators and assault marines) last considerably longer than a century, usually. Also, 1% of every chapter is a "mage", 1% are cyborgs, 1% have power shields that put overshields to shame and crozius' and 1% are captains.

@ The underline part, remember that orks are S3, and orks are phenomenally strong, almost on par with SM, so I would put spartans at S3.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

New change my friend has a point Spartans are better than odst at shooting, source is halo cronicals. So Bs 5 is awarded to them.

Orks are also stronger than IG, and daemon princes tougher than astartes, and and and...only mark the difference if it is MASSIVE

Dr.Dakka wrote:I'm stating Halo with my friend, we are assembling a proxy army now. Battle report will be posted.


Warthog

Or trucks are Av 10 and are scrap metal, Warthog would be Av 10 open topped. Weapon S 4 Ap 6. Basically a stubber.

Scorpion

Av 12-13 considering the last decision. We will say Av 12 because predators are Av 12. Weapon would be an auto cannon S 7 Ap 4. Would have to be to be considering the weapons are about the same.

weapons

Standard

Assault rifle
S 3, it is an auto gun after all. I would make it R 18 assault 2.

Battle rifle
Same as las gun, it is a strait auto gun.

odst
Same as kasarkin

marine
same as veteran

spartan
kasarkin stats with higher Strength and armor. This makes him S 4 with a Sv of 3+ and an invulnerable save so i give that a 5+.

More weapons.

Missile launcher
Standard S8 Ap3

Spartan Laser
Stronger than a missile launcher, able to reliably kill scorpion in one or two shots. Sounds like a lascannon, but I have aanother cool idea.
S8 Ap2 R38" Lance *
*Hits every unit in a strait line once.

Gattling turret
basically a heavy stubber S4 Ap6 R36" Heavy 3


Automatically Appended Next Post:
New change my friend has a point Spartans are better than odst at shooting, source is halo cronicals. So Bs 5 is awarded to them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Covie 40k stats

Covie Transport ships(can't remember name)

Av 13 front side and rear. Open Top

2, S 7 Ap 2 plasma cannon turrets

2, S 6 Ap 4 Plasma cannons Heavy 3

Capacity 20

That is the best we could do with that. They are heavily armored, and armed, and have insane capacities.

Hunter
S 5
T 6
W 2
Sv 3+
Their gun would be S7 Ap2 Rapid Fire Imo.

Marines would be bs 3. Trained troops.
Spartans would be bs 4.
Odst would be bs 4 as well. Spartans may be better but not bs 5 better.

If scorpion has an autocannon as main gun, the spartan armor is ap 4 at best. No invul save. Scorpions one shot spartans, autocannons dont one shot marines.

Brute shot does not equal bolter. Bolters would blow apart a normal man, brute shots dont.

This is making me want to finish off my Covenant Tau so I can play against my friend's BA or Crons, or DKOK, or anything really.

I would like to say now to everyone posting here, thank you for your opinions, I value them and appreciate your feed back. But I strongly feel all of the above criticisms are dead wrong for the very reasons I stated. Your opinions are your opinions, but I am trying to make a table top army to compete in 40k here. We will just have agree to disagree. The stories of trumped up space marine exploits are something I write off to imperial propaganda. We have to remember the Tau a tiny minuscule people kill space marines like it is their job.... I simply don't share your faith in these so called savior of man. The fluff doesn't match the game at all, so one has to be a fallacy, and i chose to believe that fallacy exists in the fluff.

This is surely the longest ever cross-universe thread...

We are beating a dead horse here, there isn't much left to argue about. In summary: a Space Marine is equivalent to 2-3 SPARTANS, and the Master Chief is the second coming of Jesus.

Dr.Dakka wrote:I would like to say now to everyone posting here, thank you for your opinions, I value them and appreciate your feed back. But I strongly feel all of the above criticisms are dead wrong for the very reasons I stated. Your opinions are your opinions, but I am trying to make a table top army to compete in 40k here. We will just have agree to disagree. The stories of trumped up space marine exploits are something I write off to imperial propaganda. We have to remember the Tau a tiny minuscule people kill space marines like it is their job.... I simply don't share your faith in these so called savior of man. The fluff doesn't match the game at all, so one has to be a fallacy, and i chose to believe that fallacy exists in the fluff.

Value feed back? Um...I'm the OP...

And if every space marine was worth 2-3 guardsmen like on the table, why would they even exist? Spending as much resources as the imperium does on 1 million supersoldiers who can only barely surpass a baseline human who doesn't even have special training...it would be ridiculous. As it is, a company is easily the equal of a regiment, which can field men in the tens of thousands, depending on the regiment.

A chapter is usually at least the equal of a crusade. Not an exceptional crusade like macharius', mind you, but still...

And tau have enormous trouble killing marines. In the fluff marine armour soaks up pulse rounds like a vacuum cleaner, and deflect plasma rifle shots with their pauldrons. In IA3, marines were going 1-1 with crisis suits, which are ~super light dreadnoughts. They really aren't great at killing marines, in the fluff only marines are good at killing marines, on the TT only Krak and plasma is really good at killing marines. And PW.

Generally its a 10:1 ration for marines. So yeah a company is worth about a small regiment. Really the IG fights about 99.9999% of the Imperiums battles. Since marines are rare.

I was talking about the above stat lines I and my friend were creating.... Apologise if there was a misunderstanding.

And yes a marine in fluff is god as I mentioned earlier.