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Because LC Termies can't ignore FNP and strike at a 2+ save against Terminator/Artificer/Mega Armour.

Because 40k is clearly all about silver bullet arguments.

TedNugent wrote:Because LC Termies can't ignore FNP and strike at a 2+ save against Terminator/Artificer/Mega Armour.

The discussion was against MEQ not TEQ...

Mix LC and Hammer/Shield.

The LCs clear up any MEQ or worse, and the Hammers finishes anything else off.

I'm thinking 6 Hammers 4 LCs atm.

My wolf guard termies have always been the following.

Arjac (TH/SS)
x2) twin LC
x1) chainfist/heavy flamer
x1) power weapon/stormbolter

This loadout has been able to chew through anything it touches. Whatever the lightning claws and power weapon didn't kill, Ajac mopped up.

Mixed terminators have always been good. Something SW and Chaos have always taken advantage of.

AresX8 wrote:Because 40k is clearly all about silver bullet arguments.

How is that a matter of silver bullet? You're the one arguing about what does better against MEQs that only have TEQ killing power at I1.

I'm telling you that TH/SS has a 3++ invul for anything that pierces his 2+. He has an AP2 weapon that also doubles as a concussive strength 8 AV weapon. He can safely engage any Monstrous Creature, which will be wounded on 2s and if it switches to smash will still have to contend with a 3++ invuln. TH/SS can instant kill ICs, Nobs, Paladins, and void all their Feel No Pain saves, meaning that TH/SS is better against Blood Angels. So think about that for a second, if a Meganob walks up to you with a 2+ save and no invuln and 2W, your TH/SS Termies can instant kill them for each wound inflicted with no armor save and wounding on 2's. Same with any Artificer HQ. They can also pierce Mephiston's armor save. They can also obliterate Dreadnoughts in CC.

And on and on.

The argument I'm making is not silver bullet, lol, the argument I'm making is for versatility.

Consider this - any MEQ is still going to be wounded on 2's and have its armor save ignored, plus if it has an FNP save it's now gone, and if they have Axes or Fists they're dealing with a 3+ invul instead of a 5+.

TH/SS are better against a much wider array of opponents and are much more versatile. You won't ever be caught with your pants down with a TH/SS Termie. Oh, and even if you come up against a squad of Ork Boyz, your TH/SS Terminator can challenge their Nob and either instagib him, thus winning the combat, or force him to hide out of combat, so TH/SS is even better against Ork Boy mobs too.

On an unrelated note, How has the Court of the Archon fared, in your eyes? With wounds being allocated from the front, that means you could have a Sslyth wedge in front of your Archon, negating the need for the Shadow Field and letting you take a Clone Field instead. Then, taking a Power Axe lets him deal with any terminators they feel the need to charge, while the rest of the group is full of meaty units that could clear a squad, and the Clone Field lets him stay in melee long enough to swing. Although I'll admit I'm not sure what the llameans will be doing other than light infantry cleanup. So take on less and attach and Eldar Warlock for some psyker shenanigans. Oh, and then there are the Medusae for some funny templates on overwatch/whatever.
It's an awfully expensive unit, but it's a lot more playable than it was in 5th with having to use the average of t3 and armor 5+. Suddenly awesome, or suddenly less terrible?

Ratlings have become rather good also all the flyers and longfangs as they can shoot everything

Crimson-King2120 wrote: longfangs

"Suddenly Awesome"?

DarknessEternal wrote:

Crimson-King2120 wrote: longfangs

"Suddenly Awesome"?

well more awesome than they were in 5th

I nominate Jump Pack Chaplains, 4 re-rollable krak grenade attacks (equivalent) on the charge against vehicles and you take melta bombs for the tanks that are rear armor 12+.

Winning

Still only get one grenade attack in melee per model.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:Still only get one grenade attack in melee per model.

Which is why he said (equivalent), he's referring to the Crozius counting as a Power Maul.

Crimson-King2120 wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Crimson-King2120 wrote: longfangs

"Suddenly Awesome"?

well more awesome than they were in 5th

They can move and shoot at BS1 which helps, but they don't get flakk missiles yet so they'll have trouble killing flyers.

Joe Mama wrote:Not a huge buff but if the rumors are true the GK Dreadknight got a decent buff in CC, considering it will get its 2+ save most of the time and potentially can challenge other characters.

And I heard that since Dread CCWs being 2x Strength no longer only applies to Vehicles a Dreadknight's strength is now 10 in Assault.

Joey wrote:BA just got knocked from top tier to mid tier.
FNP - nerfed
FC - nerfed
fast transports - nerfed
Note that jump troops only get the bonus attack if they did NOT use jump packs in the movement phase. You use them in movement or assault, not both.
They also strike at Initiative 4 and will lose any charge bonuses if they want to multi-charge.

The Fast Attack on Rhinos / Razorback nerf just dawned on me... the Amendment language and lack of Fast Attack Rhino / Razorback listed in the appendix baffles me.

I suppose the BA Razor Rampage is over... Hmm...

Wow...

I dunno, people on Dakka are saying to refer to the codex when it's not addressed, so I'll apply fast rules when possible (although I don't really spam rhinos or razors anyways, so it's not as big a blow to me)

BUT - BA will be great fun with this edition, their buffs can shape them into what they were likely more intended to be, focusing on jump infantry builds, and overall I have a feeling people may cry cheese less often.

You know, unless you field DC (people are apparently getting all up in arms about them), Mephiston, that sort of stuff. But I still think BA are an excellent army, and plenty people can still agree that they are still up there.

Yes, while they were nerfed, its not like they were nerfed to suck, rather they were nerfed to be more equal. I think most books got balanced out. Now will we have to try different tactics and army builds? Yes but that is what we expected from an edition shift. Honestly I am excited to see what my friends do with their armies now that they are bringing them out of retirement.

PrimarchX wrote:

Joe Mama wrote:Not a huge buff but if the rumors are true the GK Dreadknight got a decent buff in CC, considering it will get its 2+ save most of the time and potentially can challenge other characters.

And I heard that since Dread CCWs being 2x Strength no longer only applies to Vehicles a Dreadknight's strength is now 10 in Assault.

Ha ha, yes, I found out about this quite a bit after I posted that up there!

Titan Atlas wrote:I dunno, people on Dakka are saying to refer to the codex when it's not addressed, so I'll apply fast rules when possible (although I don't really spam rhinos or razors anyways, so it's not as big a blow to me)

BUT - BA will be great fun with this edition, their buffs can shape them into what they were likely more intended to be, focusing on jump infantry builds, and overall I have a feeling people may cry cheese less often.

You know, unless you field DC (people are apparently getting all up in arms about them), Mephiston, that sort of stuff. But I still think BA are an excellent army, and plenty people can still agree that they are still up there.

Yeah, I don't know... it has me a bit worried, I really liked the fast vehicles in the BA book... the FAQ Amendments section says to look to the BRB for a list of your UNIT TYPE and HULL POINTS... how can we justify using the Hull points listing listing for our vehicles found under space marines section, but ignoring that the same untis don't have FAST anymore... It seems like an error to me, especially when the book and fluff go on and on about the LR being the only vehicle the BA have not figured out how to make fast, and that's why it gets to Deep Strike.

perhaps we can hope for a second round of FAQ updates, maybe its just an omission accident...

Edit: Wrong thread?

Tactica wrote:
Yeah, I don't know... it has me a bit worried, I really liked the fast vehicles in the BA book... the FAQ Amendments section says to look to the BRB for a list of your UNIT TYPE and HULL POINTS... how can we justify using the Hull points listing listing for our vehicles found under space marines section, but ignoring that the same untis don't have FAST anymore... It seems like an error to me, especially when the book and fluff go on and on about the LR being the only vehicle the BA have not figured out how to make fast, and that's why it gets to Deep Strike.

perhaps we can hope for a second round of FAQ updates, maybe its just an omission accident...

Codex still trumps rulebook right? The baal predator is listed as fast, they just didnt give the general SM vehicles the blood angels use their own listing

Ascalam wrote:If you want to look at OP, look at 2+/3++/FNP T-hammer termies under the new rules.

They are damn near unkillable, barring MASSIVE wounds spamming.

Just like 5th ed for some people ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

King Pariah wrote:Don't know if anyone mentioned this already but CSM bikers with MoN. Maybe not AWESOME!!!! But a nuisance in their own right.

As the owner of a daemon prince- T6 3+ ain't the bees knees.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AresX8 wrote:Why wouldn't you take LC Termies when the majority of things that can kill them in combat strikes after them?

^ TH/SS+LC terminators. Instead of going "waaah AP3", AresX8 has put it into perspective, and is not crying out about the sky falling in.
Learn from him people

DarthDiggler wrote:It's looking like Eldar are the most powerful codex right now. Not sure how long it will last though.

Vibro cannons inflict automatic glancing hits on every model in a 36" line. No Line of sight needed. 3 batteries of vibrocannons means three 36" lines of auto glancing to vehicles ( and a bunch of str 6 hits to non vehicles). Even flyers can't escape the line of glancing hits. Eldar should be able to wreck almost every enemy vehicle by turn 3. How do you not keep 2-3 vehicle out of a 36" line? It can't happen. All vehicles dead by turn 3 from three 150pt units.

Next Eldar excel at laying down huge amounts of fire into foot units. Warp spiders, dire avengers, even guardians will all get buffed with guide and the enemy will be hit with doom. This will force an obscene number of saves on the enemy foot units. Remember the Vibro cannons glanced all the vehicles to death already.

IMO Eldar need a new book and fast to keep them from just destroying 6th edition.

You're reading the rules for Vibrocannon wrong and you misunderstand why they are suddenly useful.

Vibrocannons combine their shots. You get one single glancing hit per battery per vehicle. All you gain from buying more cannons is a higher likelihood of scoring a hit and higher strength against non-AV.

The reason they got useful, and I'm not saying good, is that they are now T7 3+ rather than AV10 (with a really bad damage table) and as such harder to kill. I'll let a rules lawyer say that they can't kill stuff out of sight, but there you go.

P.S. Doom got nerfed. Guide is pointless.

What about the Monolith? AV 14 and a +5 jink save.

"the building dodged again , sir..."

"Dammit, reload! "

Jihallah wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

King Pariah wrote:Don't know if anyone mentioned this already but CSM bikers with MoN. Maybe not AWESOME!!!! But a nuisance in their own right.

As the owner of a daemon prince- T6 3+ ain't the bees knees.

Then again, what about an entire squad of Daemon Princes? Say, 7?

Mahtamori wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:It's looking like Eldar are the most powerful codex right now. Not sure how long it will last though.

Vibro cannons inflict automatic glancing hits on every model in a 36" line. No Line of sight needed. 3 batteries of vibrocannons means three 36" lines of auto glancing to vehicles ( and a bunch of str 6 hits to non vehicles). Even flyers can't escape the line of glancing hits. Eldar should be able to wreck almost every enemy vehicle by turn 3. How do you not keep 2-3 vehicle out of a 36" line? It can't happen. All vehicles dead by turn 3 from three 150pt units.

Next Eldar excel at laying down huge amounts of fire into foot units. Warp spiders, dire avengers, even guardians will all get buffed with guide and the enemy will be hit with doom. This will force an obscene number of saves on the enemy foot units. Remember the Vibro cannons glanced all the vehicles to death already.

IMO Eldar need a new book and fast to keep them from just destroying 6th edition.

You're reading the rules for Vibrocannon wrong and you misunderstand why they are suddenly useful.

Vibrocannons combine their shots. You get one single glancing hit per battery per vehicle. All you gain from buying more cannons is a higher likelihood of scoring a hit and higher strength against non-AV.

The reason they got useful, and I'm not saying good, is that they are now T7 3+ rather than AV10 (with a really bad damage table) and as such harder to kill. I'll let a rules lawyer say that they can't kill stuff out of sight, but there you go.

P.S. Doom got nerfed. Guide is pointless.

I get why Guide is pointless because the primaris power for Divination is just Guide with double the range, but how exactly did Doom get nerfed aside from the slight chance to have it Deny the Witch'd?

Guide is guaranteed, where-as Divination's is random (but swappable).

MandalorynOranj wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:It's looking like Eldar are the most powerful codex right now. Not sure how long it will last though.

Vibro cannons inflict automatic glancing hits on every model in a 36" line. No Line of sight needed. 3 batteries of vibrocannons means three 36" lines of auto glancing to vehicles ( and a bunch of str 6 hits to non vehicles). Even flyers can't escape the line of glancing hits. Eldar should be able to wreck almost every enemy vehicle by turn 3. How do you not keep 2-3 vehicle out of a 36" line? It can't happen. All vehicles dead by turn 3 from three 150pt units.

Next Eldar excel at laying down huge amounts of fire into foot units. Warp spiders, dire avengers, even guardians will all get buffed with guide and the enemy will be hit with doom. This will force an obscene number of saves on the enemy foot units. Remember the Vibro cannons glanced all the vehicles to death already.

IMO Eldar need a new book and fast to keep them from just destroying 6th edition.

You're reading the rules for Vibrocannon wrong and you misunderstand why they are suddenly useful.

Vibrocannons combine their shots. You get one single glancing hit per battery per vehicle. All you gain from buying more cannons is a higher likelihood of scoring a hit and higher strength against non-AV.

The reason they got useful, and I'm not saying good, is that they are now T7 3+ rather than AV10 (with a really bad damage table) and as such harder to kill. I'll let a rules lawyer say that they can't kill stuff out of sight, but there you go.

P.S. Doom got nerfed. Guide is pointless.

I get why Guide is pointless because the primaris power for Divination is just Guide with double the range, but how exactly did Doom get nerfed aside from the slight chance to have it Deny the Witch'd?

Your Farseer has to be out in the open and have LOS to see their target for Doom. Farseers aren't durable in the open.