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Long Fangs became even more deadly if the rumours are correct. Heavy Weapons can still fire at BS1 if they move? No longer are they completely stationary. With Missile Launchers glancing AV12 on a 4+ is very sweet.

Unfortunately with Hull Points my dual Dreadnought list that I want to run is probably DoA.

StoneRaizer wrote:Long Fangs became even more deadly if the rumours are correct. Heavy Weapons can still fire at BS1 if they move? No longer are they completely stationary. With Missile Launchers glancing AV12 on a 4+ is very sweet.

Unfortunately with Hull Points my dual Dreadnought list that I want to run is probably DoA.

Meh, Snap Fire doesn't really help Long Fangs that much. 5 MLs means maybe one hit on snap fire. That's not game breaking and I still wouldn't want to move them unless it was dire.

actually MLs got categorically worse against vehicles.

Also toward the DE got worse comment. I totally disagree.

With the strong possability of night fight in every game, Dark eldar with their night vision can really exploit that. Also the concept of taking a farseer with doom is absolutely devestating with all the poison shot. Not to mention their flier are probaably the best out of all of them, beasts just became insanely good, DE are one of the few armies that can deal with high AV at range, hellions are really good a tank hunting now that they can glance them to death and hit on a 3+, skimmers moving fast can only be hit on a 6+, reavers can now move 48", andwith the new rules harlies get good again.

Exergy wrote:

Milisim wrote:
Tau are better than before... What EVERYONE is forgetting is that EVERYONE else is getting better too! = Tau still suck.

DE and Eldar are much worse.
GK are worse
BA are awesome now.
not everyone is getting better. DE went from competitive to nearly unplayable. Eldar went from one mechout possibility to nothing.

Again, I'm not sure how you figure BA are awesome now. Vehicle lists got nerfed across the board, FnP and higher initiative which was the staple for DoA got nerfed. Which BA list is it exactly that's much better today?

Stoffer wrote:

Exergy wrote:

Milisim wrote:
Tau are better than before... What EVERYONE is forgetting is that EVERYONE else is getting better too! = Tau still suck.

DE and Eldar are much worse.
GK are worse
BA are awesome now.
not everyone is getting better. DE went from competitive to nearly unplayable. Eldar went from one mechout possibility to nothing.

Again, I'm not sure how you figure BA are awesome now. Vehicle lists got nerfed across the board, FnP and higher initiative which was the staple for DoA got nerfed. Which BA list is it exactly that's much better today?

have you looked at death company with their 5 attacks on the charge and no downside? give them jump packs and they will roll anything in the game.
regular assault marines are great too.
vanguard vets are awesome as well.
so you dont get +1 inititive, instead you get inititive 10. I call that a win.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

deFl0 wrote:
Also toward the DE got worse comment. I totally disagree.

With the strong possability of night fight in every game, Dark eldar with their night vision can really exploit that. Also the concept of taking a farseer with doom is absolutely devestating with all the poison shot. Not to mention their flier are probaably the best out of all of them, beasts just became insanely good, DE are one of the few armies that can deal with high AV at range, hellions are really good a tank hunting now that they can glance them to death and hit on a 3+, skimmers moving fast can only be hit on a 6+, reavers can now move 48", andwith the new rules harlies get good again.

those are nice, but now:
flickerfields are redundant
open topped vehicles are deadly
we cant assualt very far out of our transports
fleet got nerfed
we have no answer to 2+ saves in combat
we still have no answer to dreads in combat, less in fact now that talos dont get 2d6 for armor pen
hellions are still overcosted
snap fire hurts wyches
FNP nerf hurts our entire army
havent read it but you cant assault the turn you arrive from reserve, so wwp lists are gimped

night fighting being good really depends on if stealth stacks. it could be ok, with a good FAQ it could be good, but I doubt it.

Exergy wrote:

Stoffer wrote:

Exergy wrote:

Milisim wrote:
Tau are better than before... What EVERYONE is forgetting is that EVERYONE else is getting better too! = Tau still suck.

DE and Eldar are much worse.
GK are worse
BA are awesome now.
not everyone is getting better. DE went from competitive to nearly unplayable. Eldar went from one mechout possibility to nothing.

Again, I'm not sure how you figure BA are awesome now. Vehicle lists got nerfed across the board, FnP and higher initiative which was the staple for DoA got nerfed. Which BA list is it exactly that's much better today?

have you looked at death company with their 5 attacks on the charge and no downside? give them jump packs and they will roll anything in the game.
regular assault marines are great too.
vanguard vets are awesome as well.
so you dont get +1 inititive, instead you get inititive 10. I call that a win.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

deFl0 wrote:
Also toward the DE got worse comment. I totally disagree.

With the strong possability of night fight in every game, Dark eldar with their night vision can really exploit that. Also the concept of taking a farseer with doom is absolutely devestating with all the poison shot. Not to mention their flier are probaably the best out of all of them, beasts just became insanely good, DE are one of the few armies that can deal with high AV at range, hellions are really good a tank hunting now that they can glance them to death and hit on a 3+, skimmers moving fast can only be hit on a 6+, reavers can now move 48", andwith the new rules harlies get good again.

those are nice, but now:
flickerfields are redundant
open topped vehicles are deadly
we cant assualt very far out of our transports
fleet got nerfed
we have no answer to 2+ saves in combat
we still have no answer to dreads in combat, less in fact now that talos dont get 2d6 for armor pen
hellions are still overcosted
snap fire hurts wyches
FNP nerf hurts our entire army
havent read it but you cant assault the turn you arrive from reserve, so wwp lists are gimped

night fighting being good really depends on if stealth stacks. it could be ok, with a good FAQ it could be good, but I doubt it.

Death company are going to be 35 points pr model BEFORE you put any weapon upgrades on them. That's close to terminator cost for a unit with a 3+ save and no invul. Those 5 attacks will happen simultaneously with any marine you're assaulting so you're going to be taking a lot more hits than you did previously. FNP and FC which were basically the bread and butter of BA infantry both got significant downgrades which you'll feel. BA were never the best assault army, but they were really good at being durable and outlasting their opponents.

The 10 initiative isn't so straight forward. You trade ALL your bonuses for 1 attack per model at base strength. Let's face it, that works against smaller units but anytime you have 10 marines doing 10 hits with regular weapons, you're unlikely to impress any unit that's marginally good.

Overall it looks like they're losing survival for offense, which I'm not sure is the greatest tradeoff.

Swooping Hawks might be playable now. With their Haywire Grendas they should be able to destroy any vehicle in one turn of assault.

The same as Wraithguard.

Stoffer wrote:

Exergy wrote:

Milisim wrote:
Tau are better than before... What EVERYONE is forgetting is that EVERYONE else is getting better too! = Tau still suck.

DE and Eldar are much worse.
GK are worse
BA are awesome now.
not everyone is getting better. DE went from competitive to nearly unplayable. Eldar went from one mechout possibility to nothing.

Again, I'm not sure how you figure BA are awesome now. Vehicle lists got nerfed across the board, FnP and higher initiative which was the staple for DoA got nerfed. Which BA list is it exactly that's much better today?

Not many lists can field many Jump Infantry other than Blood Angels. If rumors are correct, their movement remains the same (12"), but their charge range is 2D6" with rerolls. In a single turn, a squad of Jump Infantry could potentially cover half the table. Sure infantry are rumored able to move and shoot, but their meager 6" movement is nothing compared to the distance covered by Jump Infantry in a single turn. On top of that there's the rumored I10 for the turn Jump Infantry charge in.

FnP being 5+ isn't a huge blow consider what BA has gain. The only question I have is what changes have been made to furious charge? +1 initiative means nothing now, but losing +1 strength would be a devastating blow.

I think infantry in general got buffed solely by the heavy nerfing of transports.

Transports no longer allow you to assault the turn you disembark, even if you remain still meaning the battle taxi approach is severely diminished. Hhull points also greatly reduces their survivability. They can also no longer just rush forward and pop-smoke either.

Green tide orks, infantry marines (especially DOA BA), phalanx necrons, and footdar will see a great rise in the meta while armies like MSU razor and venom spam will see a hefty decrease.

Ultimatley, in my opinion, the army meta will likely be similar to 4th edition where footsloggin was acceptable and not everything had to be meched up to compete.

Necron destroyers got a huge boost with the way preferred enemy works now, applying to ranged attacks as well as melee attacks. They might even be worth taking as heavies with those re-rolls. Or if not, the boost to rapid=fire weapons also benefits them

Griever wrote:

Shadelkan wrote:Tau in general. Nothing like having fire warriors that can fall back and fire at max distance.

Yup, the thought of fielding 72 Fire Warriors than can shoot 72 shots at 30" whilst still moving and 144 shots at 15" while still moving is sexy. I've always loved the models, maybe now I can actually use them.

I think rapid fire range is 12", not half range, it used to be half range in 4th but I think in 5th it got nerfed to 12"

iGuy91 wrote:Necron destroyers got a huge boost with the way preferred enemy works now, applying to ranged attacks as well as melee attacks. They might even be worth taking as heavies with those re-rolls. Or if not, the boost to rapid=fire weapons also benefits them

Destroyers suck in melee combat, along with most of the Necron Codex. The only that saves them is T5, which is easy enough to drown in dice. Rapid fire doesn't benefit destroyers of any flavor as they all have assault weapons.

SabrX wrote:

Stoffer wrote:

Exergy wrote:

Milisim wrote:
Tau are better than before... What EVERYONE is forgetting is that EVERYONE else is getting better too! = Tau still suck.

DE and Eldar are much worse.
GK are worse
BA are awesome now.
not everyone is getting better. DE went from competitive to nearly unplayable. Eldar went from one mechout possibility to nothing.

Again, I'm not sure how you figure BA are awesome now. Vehicle lists got nerfed across the board, FnP and higher initiative which was the staple for DoA got nerfed. Which BA list is it exactly that's much better today?

Not many lists can field many Jump Infantry other than Blood Angels. If rumors are correct, their movement remains the same (12"), but their charge range is 2D6" with rerolls. In a single turn, a squad of Jump Infantry could potentially cover half the table. Sure infantry are rumored able to move and shoot, but their meager 6" movement is nothing compared to the distance covered by Jump Infantry in a single turn. On top of that there's the rumored I10 for the turn Jump Infantry charge in.

FnP being 5+ isn't a huge blow consider what BA has gain. The only question I have is what changes have been made to furious charge? +1 initiative means nothing now, but losing +1 strength would be a devastating blow.

Yeah but again, that I10 attack is a single attack without modifiers. It's going to be super useful in certain situations but not against all enemies. I don't disagree that I can cross the board quicker, my issue is that once I get there I have a lot less tools for killing things efficiently.

Mantle wrote:

Griever wrote:

Shadelkan wrote:Tau in general. Nothing like having fire warriors that can fall back and fire at max distance.

Yup, the thought of fielding 72 Fire Warriors than can shoot 72 shots at 30" whilst still moving and 144 shots at 15" while still moving is sexy. I've always loved the models, maybe now I can actually use them.

I think rapid fire range is 12", not half range, it used to be half range in 4th but I think in 5th it got nerfed to 12"

Rapid fire was always 2 shots as 12

I'm torn between a biker army, seeing as they get the hammer attack and the rulebook not mentioning the extra toughness being irrelevant to ID. I'll wait for an FAQ on that though, because some codexes still say otherwise.

Otherwise I'm thinking of Tau. British Empire gunline at the back with deep striking units doing all they can to keep anything with the range from threatening my firewarriors.

Was starting Necrons, but don't want to look like I'm jumping on the powerwagon.

This all got better as far as I can tell.

Thousand sons

Ok they are way way way way to many points.

Cover is 5+ (except ruins)

so the 4++ is nice they are carrying cover.

They have relentless (we will see how that works out) meaning they can shoot there bolters full distance, which are AP 3!!!

I think that army looks like more fun now, especially because the squad leaders are psychers and might get to take powers from the new disciplines.




Also my 4th ed 1k point army is back!

Hq shas'o
fusion blaster ( melta)
missile pod (autocannon)
shield gen
Hw multitracker and drone controller

60 fire warriors

hammer heads x 2

Thrawn2600 wrote:Thousand sons

Ok they are way way way way to many points.

Cover is 5+ (except ruins)

so the 4++ is nice they are carrying cover.

They have relentless (we will see how that works out) meaning they can shoot there bolters full distance, which are AP 3!!!

I think that army looks like more fun now, especially because the squad leaders are psychers and might get to take powers from the new disciplines.

Bolded part is wrong I'm afraid. Rapid fire weapons are 1 shot at max. range, doesn't matter if you more or not. That one is as reliable as you can get.
I also think relentless doesn't give additional shot to RF, but I may be wrong on this one.

Bolded part is wrong I'm afraid. Rapid fire weapons are 1 shot at max. range, doesn't matter if you more or not. That one is as reliable as you can get.
I also think relentless doesn't give additional shot to RF, but I may be wrong on this one.

I think relentless will have to have some kind of advantage (i know they actually have slow and purposeful). there are so many units that are relentless, they seem to have given all rapidfire weapons relentless. I am sure they will do something to augment it. it might do something else entirely. but none the less AP3 bolters, and move an shoot for max range... that looks NICE!

Let me clear this up if I can.

Rapid-Fire weapons, pg.52; 2 shots at half range, 1 shot at full range. Can't assault normally if rapid-fire is used. Movement is now no penalty to either.

Relentless, pg. 41; counts as stationary and allows assault even after rapid-fire or heavy weapon shots (so essentially the same as 5th).

With regards to Thousand Sons, who have the SnP rule (page pg.42) is changed to normal 6" movement but no running, also no overwatch, but allows assaults as normal.

THANK YOU,

Also i think that sill makes thousand sons better than before. They can absolutely fight well, and now they have no real need for rhinos.

The lack of Overwatch is going to hurt them, particularly since they bring such otherwise horrific short range shooting.

Blood Angels can take Plasma Guns in assault squads.
I've always liked fast moving rapid firing plasma.
I'll be running 2x plasmaguns and vet with combi-plasma and power sword/axe, depending on special rule shakedown.

12" move with 24" range means I can play keep away with terminators until I either over-heat to death or they fail those invuls.

It's ~70 points cheaper than an identicle chaos version, and it scores.

-Matt

Exergy wrote:
DE and Eldar are much worse.
DE went from competitive to nearly unplayable. Eldar went from one mechout possibility to nothing.

I'm sorry but I could not disagree with this more. Did DE get nerfed? Yeah. Are some builds virtually unplayable? Also yeah. But that isn't a time for OMG the sky is falling like was during 4th. Scourges w/ haywire blasters are insane and IMO will replace blasterborn. Run 5 brides w/ haywires in their place for the extra venoms. In place of ravagers I see the voidraven really stepping it up. Not only is it tough to hit, but can take the FF so you don't need to try and dodge and thus use full BS every time. Implosion missiles went way up in stock.

I see this scenario. Take a squad of assault termis in a LR or LRC. I'm going to haywire it to death with scourges. Now my voidraven will unload the missile and void lances into them They will already be nice and clustered up for me from having to get out. Now on a 2+ and a failed invul the termis are gone! 3+ for paladins and 4+ for most charachters! Any other troops can be delt with through tried and true venom spam. If klaives, demi-klaives (I see this one) or agonisers get AP2 then that is a decent CC unit not to mention the rends coming from beasts.

Eldar have some nasty tricks too. Hawks with intercept! Yikes. Pathfinders sniping sgts, and special weapons w/ AP 1 or 2! Wraithlords, wraithguard, even guardians w/ warlock are nasty.

With every new edition you have to be able to adapt, with these two armies especially. Even as allies I'll take a fortuned shadowfield any day! Not to mention dooming a squad that I'm about to charge or light up with venoms! Fire Dragons are still strong being AP1 just like FirePrisms. Holofields aren't as good but that just means that tactics (and lists) need to change.

I can see people taking disintegrator-ravager a lot more.

They still have the potential to glance light vehicles to death, and will be good for pummeling terminators.

I will definitely be trying the voidraven out with 6th, and see how well it performs under the new rules

Not sure about missile launchers being rubbish now. Those Flakk missiles they can fire look pretty awesome.

Pottsey wrote:

King Pariah wrote:How about your rapid fire adjustment to plasma rifles? I think that is pretty nice

What adjustments? From a battlesuits point of view plasma works 100% the same as 5th. Technically it’s a nerf to battlesuits as they gain nothing but all the other army’s gain the battlesuits bonuses of moving and firing which was one of the main points of battlesuits.

from rumor thread if you have relentless and rapdfire you get an extra shot.

so battlesuit with plasma rifle = 2x shots at 24 or 3x shots at 12 on the move.

blaktoof wrote:from rumor thread if you have relentless and rapdfire you get an extra shot.

so battlesuit with plasma rifle = 2x shots at 24 or 3x shots at 12 on the move.

That's been shotdown like 4 million times now.

pretre wrote:

blaktoof wrote:from rumor thread if you have relentless and rapdfire you get an extra shot.

so battlesuit with plasma rifle = 2x shots at 24 or 3x shots at 12 on the move.

That's been shotdown like 4 million times now.

Really? pity.

sadness fills my blak heart. :(

Skarboy wrote:If the report that "infiltrate" units can bring ICs now, Mandrakes just became WWP droppers supreme.

Eh... right now, units cannot ASSAULT when coming from reserve... so, our only hope is that WWP is FAQ'ed that we can assault out of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Exergy wrote:

Stoffer wrote:

Exergy wrote:

Milisim wrote:
Tau are better than before... What EVERYONE is forgetting is that EVERYONE else is getting better too! = Tau still suck.

DE and Eldar are much worse.
GK are worse
BA are awesome now.
not everyone is getting better. DE went from competitive to nearly unplayable. Eldar went from one mechout possibility to nothing.

Again, I'm not sure how you figure BA are awesome now. Vehicle lists got nerfed across the board, FnP and higher initiative which was the staple for DoA got nerfed. Which BA list is it exactly that's much better today?

have you looked at death company with their 5 attacks on the charge and no downside? give them jump packs and they will roll anything in the game.
regular assault marines are great too.
vanguard vets are awesome as well.
so you dont get +1 inititive, instead you get inititive 10. I call that a win.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

deFl0 wrote:
Also toward the DE got worse comment. I totally disagree.

With the strong possability of night fight in every game, Dark eldar with their night vision can really exploit that. Also the concept of taking a farseer with doom is absolutely devestating with all the poison shot. Not to mention their flier are probaably the best out of all of them, beasts just became insanely good, DE are one of the few armies that can deal with high AV at range, hellions are really good a tank hunting now that they can glance them to death and hit on a 3+, skimmers moving fast can only be hit on a 6+, reavers can now move 48", andwith the new rules harlies get good again.

those are nice, but now:
flickerfields are redundant
open topped vehicles are deadly
we cant assualt very far out of our transports
fleet got nerfed
we have no answer to 2+ saves in combat
we still have no answer to dreads in combat, less in fact now that talos dont get 2d6 for armor pen
hellions are still overcosted
snap fire hurts wyches
FNP nerf hurts our entire army
havent read it but you cant assault the turn you arrive from reserve, so wwp lists are gimped

night fighting being good really depends on if stealth stacks. it could be ok, with a good FAQ it could be good, but I doubt it.

Another thing to consider is that most DE list purchased the Flicker Field... now... just switch 'em to NighShield!