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Akroma06 wrote:Eldar have some nasty tricks too. Hawks with intercept! Yikes. Pathfinders sniping sgts, and special weapons w/ AP 1 or 2! Wraithlords, wraithguard, even guardians w/ warlock are nasty.

With every new edition you have to be able to adapt, with these two armies especially. Even as allies I'll take a fortuned shadowfield any day! Not to mention dooming a squad that I'm about to charge or light up with venoms! Fire Dragons are still strong being AP1 just like FirePrisms. Holofields aren't as good but that just means that tactics (and lists) need to change.

I disagree with lots of those. Pathfinders got better but 10 man is 2 6's (generous), one wound on 4+ sniper and 4+ chance on Look Out Sir. After that there may be cover. 50% to kill 1 chosen model from 190 point T3 5+ model unit (4+ in cover)? They got better but still not great.
How exactly are wraithlord, wraithguard and guardians "nasty"?
Wraithlord has two attacks, MCs loose ignoring armour and Smash attacks mean no increase to strength (already S10) and ONE attack. They are super cool but didn't get any better and they were not "nasty" in 5th.
What changed about wraithguard? They got better at killing vehicles, but still suck at killing infantry.
Guardians nasty? That is the worst example of all. They are now considerably worse than Fire Warriors. They may even compete for number two on the worst troops in the game.
Swooping Hawks may be nice, I couldn't be happier. Still a T3 4+ unit for 20+ points and overpriced Exarch.

Disclaimer: All this is from the rumours I've been following. I honestly didn't see any actual buffs for WL, WG and guardians. Is there something I'm missing?
All other regular troops got something nice with changes to Rapid Fire and No Retreat gone. Our foot troops got squat.

I'm not panicking btw. I don't do tournaments and my gaming group has SW player who doesn't use LF. It will get harder for Eldar players, though.

Macok wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:Eldar have some nasty tricks too. Hawks with intercept! Yikes. Pathfinders sniping sgts, and special weapons w/ AP 1 or 2! Wraithlords, wraithguard, even guardians w/ warlock are nasty.

With every new edition you have to be able to adapt, with these two armies especially. Even as allies I'll take a fortuned shadowfield any day! Not to mention dooming a squad that I'm about to charge or light up with venoms! Fire Dragons are still strong being AP1 just like FirePrisms. Holofields aren't as good but that just means that tactics (and lists) need to change.

I disagree with lots of those. Pathfinders got better but 10 man is 2 6's (generous), one wound on 4+ sniper and 4+ chance on Look Out Sir. After that there may be cover. 50% to kill 1 chosen model from 190 point T3 5+ model unit (4+ in cover)? They got better but still not great.
How exactly are wraithlord, wraithguard and guardians "nasty"?
Wraithlord has two attacks, MCs loose ignoring armour and Smash attacks mean no increase to strength (already S10) and ONE attack. They are super cool but didn't get any better and they were not "nasty" in 5th.
What changed about wraithguard? They got better at killing vehicles, but still suck at killing infantry.
Guardians nasty? That is the worst example of all. They are now considerably worse than Fire Warriors. They may even compete for number two on the worst troops in the game.
Swooping Hawks may be nice, I couldn't be happier. Still a T3 4+ unit for 20+ points and overpriced Exarch.

Disclaimer: All this is from the rumours I've been following. I honestly didn't see any actual buffs for WL, WG and guardians. Is there something I'm missing?
All other regular troops got something nice with changes to Rapid Fire and No Retreat gone. Our foot troops got squat.

I'm not panicking btw. I don't do tournaments and my gaming group has SW player who doesn't use LF. It will get harder for Eldar players, though.

All MC's attacks are AP2... so, no change there...

whembly wrote:All MC's attacks are AP2... so, no change there...

Cool, must have misread some rumours. But they did loose 2D6 penetration, right?

Stoffer wrote: ..BA were never the best assault army...

Who would you say IS then? And don't say orks, cause they're not.

Phragonist wrote:

Stoffer wrote: ..BA were never the best assault army...

Who would you say IS then? And don't say orks, cause they're not.

Sorry, that came out a little too generic. I mean that assault marines aren't the best damage dealers. The reason I kill berzerkers, boys etc is because I can take a lot more of a beating than them and strike first. If the defensive advantage goes away, it's a pretty mediocre unit.

Macok wrote:

whembly wrote:All MC's attacks are AP2... so, no change there...

Cool, must have misread some rumours. But they did loose 2D6 penetration, right?

By default, I think they do lose it... however, there's a new USR that grants 2d6 pen (armourbane?).
But, MC gets Smash tho... so, hitting them at S10 is a tradeoff (and since they're AP2, they get +1 to dmg chart)

Not having to spend pts on FF for DE means you can grab other upgrades so its no loss there.

I think being able to take some Eldar Psykers with DE will be pretty cool as well. DE/Eldar foot lists will be interesting.

Eldar is an army Iv always wanted to get into, now heres my excuse lol.

Harbinger of the storm crypteks just became a new favorite if not broken unit.

On a 2+ after hits, I can strip 1 HP? and I get 4 shots with him? well, that'll kill just about any tank.

Swooping Hawks with Skyleap, coming in automatically every turn. On the downside, not sure if Intercept is worth it anymore.
Farseers depending on how GW re-works them could be much better. Same with Warlocks (not sure how psychic disciplines work with models that don't have to roll psychic tests for their powers).

However, with the loss of being able to assault after running, my Nid army is in need of a major re-write.
Power Weapons being only AP3 means I need to find a new way to take out Termies as well.

Note to self, Toxin Sacs a must for monstrous creatures.

Tigarius (sp), the C:SM librarian is a lvl 3 mastery psyker. While he could always cast 3 powers a turn, the ability to get the new disciplines increases the number of effective powers per turn he could cast.

With the ability to choose powers from the rule book, that gives him a lot of force multiplier goodness.

Since he lets you reroll reserves, and the base reserve roll is 3+, your reserves have a 8/9 chance of coming in on turn 2 if you wish.

BA just got knocked from top tier to mid tier.
FNP - nerfed
FC - nerfed
fast transports - nerfed
Note that jump troops only get the bonus attack if they did NOT use jump packs in the movement phase. You use them in movement or assault, not both.
They also strike at Initiative 4 and will lose any charge bonuses if they want to multi-charge.

Instinctive Behaviour - Rage special rule.... YES!

I say YES!!!

edit: okay not that great & situational. but it is a plus.

Xeriapt wrote:Not having to spend pts on FF for DE means you can grab other upgrades so its no loss there.

I think being able to take some Eldar Psykers with DE will be pretty cool as well. DE/Eldar foot lists will be interesting.

Eldar is an army Iv always wanted to get into, now heres my excuse lol.

except Venoms have FF built in to their cost

Flash gits ignoring cover is boss as far as I am concerned.

Might be worthwhile now

Sunoccard wrote:Harbinger of the storm crypteks just became a new favorite if not broken unit.

On a 2+ after hits, I can strip 1 HP? and I get 4 shots with him? well, that'll kill just about any tank.

Stormtek, Veiltek, 10 Warriors.

Pop.

Triarch praetorians went from zero to hero after the faq.

Changes to morale help all xenos.

Rangers are nasty because special/heavy weapons don't get a look out sir, and the new meta will be less mechanized.

Wraith guard are scary because they can rapidly strip hull points, and with divination it would be foolish to charge them while they have full bs+ counter charge cast on them.

FAQ has been released. No assault after entering play from WWP.....

Suddenly awesome units: Look at flyers, terrain that can be bought for your army, and allies.
These alone will GW guarantee some increased sales. Other sales go down like those for tanks or transports.

Anybody noticed Vanguard Veterans can charge 12" after Deep Striking?

In a 2000 point game, you can run 6 lone wolves and just keep jumping off battlements until they die. So many victory points. Suicide wolves ftw!

schadenfreude wrote:Triarch praetorians went from zero to hero after the faq.

Changes to morale help all xenos.

Rangers are nasty because special/heavy weapons don't get a look out sir, and the new meta will be less mechanized.

Wraith guard are scary because they can rapidly strip hull points, and with divination it would be foolish to charge them while they have full bs+ counter charge cast on them.

. . . So you consider +1 S but I 1 an amazing improvement for Triarchs? They sucked before, and they suck even worse now. Termies would at least lose a model or two before striking with the old stats.

With slots doubled at 2k, I doubt there will ever be points left for Triarchs. 36 Wraiths take up 1620 points, and they're still entirely better than RoC Triarchs.

Also, it's a 1/6 chance to get Foreboding. Even on Elrad, it's not a sure thing.

Joey wrote:BA just got knocked from top tier to mid tier.
FNP - nerfed
FC - nerfed
fast transports - nerfed
Note that jump troops only get the bonus attack if they did NOT use jump packs in the movement phase. You use them in movement or assault, not both.
They also strike at Initiative 4 and will lose any charge bonuses if they want to multi-charge.

DC - HUGE buff
FNP - buffed imo. Sure, it's only 5+ now, but you don't lose FNP anymore when you get attacked by armor-penetrating attacks...which seems like a big buff to me.
new Psychic Powers: buff at first sight, new powers seem really strong

phantommaster wrote:Anybody noticed Vanguard Veterans can charge 12" after Deep Striking?

I'm pretty sure your movement is either 12 + 6 (move + assault) or 6 + 2d6 and the 2nd option only works if you didn't use your jump pack for movement, which you did when you deep struck. Or am I wrong?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sigvatr wrote:

Joey wrote:BA just got knocked from top tier to mid tier.
FNP - nerfed
FC - nerfed
fast transports - nerfed
Note that jump troops only get the bonus attack if they did NOT use jump packs in the movement phase. You use them in movement or assault, not both.
They also strike at Initiative 4 and will lose any charge bonuses if they want to multi-charge.

DC - HUGE buff
FNP - buffed imo. Sure, it's only 5+ now, but you don't lose FNP anymore when you get attacked by armor-penetrating attacks...which seems like a big buff to me.
new Psychic Powers: buff at first sight, new powers seem really strong

DC are also the price of terminators once you start slapping gear on them but without a 2+ save. There aren't really a lot of models I'd pay that much for unless they come with terminator-esque survival.

FNP is definitely not buffed. The plasma and melta shots I could live with, not being able to shrug off small arms fire in large quantities is going to be awful. For example, you're going to get shredded attacking 30 boys with overwatch.

The psychic powers I agree with, they seem fun.

Hmmm, regarding FNP, I might be biased as Necron player.

Before, every Rending Attack by our Wraiths immediatey killed a DC, without any chance of fighting back, same as being attacked by Warscythes, Destroyers, etc. All AP 3 stuff.

Everything denied FNP, but now, you still get the 5+ save.

DC lacks survivability compared to Terminators, but make up for it by a better offense now due to the vastly improved Rage USR - and let's not forget that they can sweep while terminators can't. And they count as standard + allow you to field a (again buffed) cheesebot.

Then again, Terminators also got a major buff due to the Power Weapon nerf.

Irdiumstern wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:Triarch praetorians went from zero to hero after the faq.

Changes to morale help all xenos.

Rangers are nasty because special/heavy weapons don't get a look out sir, and the new meta will be less mechanized.

Wraith guard are scary because they can rapidly strip hull points, and with divination it would be foolish to charge them while they have full bs+ counter charge cast on them.

. . . So you consider +1 S but I 1 an amazing improvement for Triarchs? They sucked before, and they suck even worse now. Termies would at least lose a model or two before striking with the old stats.

With slots doubled at 2k, I doubt there will ever be points left for Triarchs. 36 Wraiths take up 1620 points, and they're still entirely better than RoC Triarchs.

Also, it's a 1/6 chance to get Foreboding. Even on Elrad, it's not a sure thing.

Its the AP 2 combined with a destroyer lord is what makes the triarchs really good. Giving everyone preferred enemy, awesome.

Triarchs are strength 6, same as wraiths
I 1 vrs I 2 with whips(so if not in BTB no real benefit)
If you give them whip coils wraiths are 5 points more than triarchs
Triarchs have a Ap2 strength 5 shooting attack gun
Triarchs have two attacks less
Triarchs always ignore armor saves, the wraiths ignoring on 6s
Triarchs have resurrection protocols
Triarchs are in the elite slot

Triarchs gain much more from a destroyer lord than wraiths do
Not so clear cut in my mind

Leth wrote:

Irdiumstern wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:Triarch praetorians went from zero to hero after the faq.

Changes to morale help all xenos.

Rangers are nasty because special/heavy weapons don't get a look out sir, and the new meta will be less mechanized.

Wraith guard are scary because they can rapidly strip hull points, and with divination it would be foolish to charge them while they have full bs+ counter charge cast on them.

. . . So you consider +1 S but I 1 an amazing improvement for Triarchs? They sucked before, and they suck even worse now. Termies would at least lose a model or two before striking with the old stats.

With slots doubled at 2k, I doubt there will ever be points left for Triarchs. 36 Wraiths take up 1620 points, and they're still entirely better than RoC Triarchs.

Also, it's a 1/6 chance to get Foreboding. Even on Elrad, it's not a sure thing.

Its the AP 2 combined with a destroyer lord is what makes the triarchs really good. Giving everyone preferred enemy, awesome.

Triarchs are strength 6, same as wraiths
I 1 vrs I 2 with whips(so if not in BTB no real benefit)
If you give them whip coils wraiths are 5 points more than triarchs
Triarchs have a Ap2 strength 5 shooting attack gun
Triarchs have two attacks less
Triarchs always ignore armor saves, the wraiths ignoring on 6s
Triarchs have resurrection protocols
Triarchs are in the elite slot

Triarchs gain much more from a destroyer lord than wraiths do
Not so clear cut in my mind

Hmmmm those are some very good points actually.

My main gripe about them is that they absolutely need the Destroyer Lord to be effective and the DL takes a HQ slot that could as well be taken by a CCB Overlord, a named HQ, etc. Furthermore, you therefore limit your number of potential squads to 1 (as I assume that you don't want to refuse taking a Royal Court).

You also seem to have completely forgotten about defense. Wraiths get a 3++ while TP only have a 3+ which means that any power weapon denies them of every save...and PW aren't quite rare. RP do not mean a lot in melee as we are likely to get swept anyway (50% chance most of the time).

About the Whip coils:

a) You do not give every Wraith a WC, only about 3. That's enough.

b) The I difference is not only 1 when comparing the I. WC mean that EVERY enemy I will be reduced to 1. I10? => I 1. I8? -> I1. TP always have their pitiful I1 which means that most enemies strike first or at least at the same time. In the former case, with them only having a normal armor save, they are likely to lose quite a few models before getting the chance to strike back.

TP are a lot more expensive than Wraiths as they require a transport which is 100 points on top of the unit - alternatively, you need a Veiltek. TP who walk will never make it to the enemy.

You also forgot about Wraiths not being slowed by any terrain.

Overall, I still consider Wraiths being far superior. Which is bad, because TP are a lot cheaper $-wise

Joey wrote:BA just got knocked from top tier to mid tier.
FNP - nerfed
FC - nerfed
fast transports - nerfed
Note that jump troops only get the bonus attack if they did NOT use jump packs in the movement phase. You use them in movement or assault, not both.
They also strike at Initiative 4 and will lose any charge bonuses if they want to multi-charge.

I don't think they have been taken off top tier at all. They are still up there, but under a different build. The buffs they got to certain units (DC) far out weigh the nerfs they got.

Flying MC are pretty nasty now too. If you stay in the air, and shooty, or just get your deamons right up in there fast they are pretty much impossible to kill along with fateweaver.

All moving 24" while in swooping need 6s to hit with rerollable saves..... :0 What!
Just fly up and kill everything in assualt, or (I think will work better if you just fly around in swooping and flame everything).

Nasty!!

I wouldn't say it's a suddenly awesome unit, more like a suddenly awesome piece of wargear. Space Wolves' Runic Armour becomes very useful now that most power weapons aren't AP2 and the 5+ invul vs. psychic attacks matters more with the new psychic powers.

Exergy wrote:

Xeriapt wrote:Not having to spend pts on FF for DE means you can grab other upgrades so its no loss there.

I think being able to take some Eldar Psykers with DE will be pretty cool as well. DE/Eldar foot lists will be interesting.

Eldar is an army Iv always wanted to get into, now heres my excuse lol.

except Venoms have FF built in to their cost

An argument could be made that the save from flickerfield is separate from the jink rule, so you get both. Just putting it out there.

By the way, Ghazkhull in a unit of fellow nobs or meganobs is awesome. Put him out front. He gets his basic 2+ save, or is attacked by AP 1 or 2, a 5++ for cybork body and a 5++ if you include Mad Dok Grotsnik in the unit also. And if that were not bad enough, a 2+ look out, sir because he's an independent character. That sort of makes up for the minimal Ork nerfs in my opinion.