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Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Germany

chaos0xomega wrote:
Its possible Angels of Death is a lot more content than we realized...? Like a 20+ episode season of 1 hour episodes?


In that case it'll either look like a very bad and rushed PS1 cutscene or it'll consist of two guys running around with plastic cut-outs making voices, since GW doesn't remotely have the budget to make 20+ hours of any other kind of animation.

"Tabletop games are the only setting when a body is made more horrifying for NOT being chopped into smaller pieces."
- Jiado 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

Ahem.

We can probably look at what GW has done historically to predict what will appear on Warhammer+.

They take another franchise (historical / sci-fi, commercially successful) and incorporate a close cousin into the lore behind their games. Tolkien, Dune, Aliens, 2000AD, etc, it's not hard to see the influence.

If history is any indicator, GW aspires to incorporate existing digital content into Warhammer+. They're already doing it with animation, it makes sense they would do it with other digital video content.

The existing digital video space for GW content consists of:

- Batreps
- Painting Tutorials
- "Podcasts" talking about the game
- Video Game coverage
- Cosplay

My guess is they talk to MWG, Tabletop Tactics, Striking Scorpion, Deployment Zone TV, and whoever else gets the most traffic on YouTube. They offer distribution / revenue in exchange for producing batreps exclusive on the service. That costs them very little, gains them personalities with an existing audience all while eliminating no-cost competition.

To launch a paid streaming service, GW will have to pull subscribers away from "free" channels on digital platforms. The only way a paid streaming service grows is if it offers better value than what you can get off YouTube, and people get value lots of ways. GW will try painting videos, product intros, interviews with tournament winners, etc, anything they can do to pull people in. Ideally, they starve out other creators and become the only option for this kind of content.

My prediction is a service like this will fail, they will alienate creators who will leave and take their audiences with them. Currently, I subscribe to the channels listed above (plus others) because I want them to succeed as people who just enjoy the hobby. Not sure how I would feel about paying a company that sells me hobby products charging me for a streaming channel about said hobby. It's not coming from the right place, reminds me too much of Disney.

The other thing is product placement. The first time I saw a product intro video where a paid GW personality drools over a model that's actually not very good, I'm going to question that person's sincerity and eventually lose interest in what he has to say. Part of why I like the no-cost content is the sense I'm getting an unbiased opinion by someone who focuses critically on the game.

That said, GW is welcome to try. I just question whether they can capture the audience the same way other personalities have. Entertainment and Streaming Services are different business models than GW has done in the past. Looking at annual reports, it's clear GW operates a very lean and efficient business. Streaming Services tend to have as many failures as they have successes. Entertainment, in general, generates a lot of criticism, which can affect product sales. My concern is trying to do this under one roof might be hard, and I'll be watching for signs that there's a problem.

   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba




The Great State of New Jersey

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
Its possible Angels of Death is a lot more content than we realized...? Like a 20+ episode season of 1 hour episodes?


In that case it'll either look like a very bad and rushed PS1 cutscene or it'll consist of two guys running around with plastic cut-outs making voices, since GW doesn't remotely have the budget to make 20+ hours of any other kind of animation.


Theyve been working on it for at least 3 years, thats plenty of time for them to produce 20 hours of content - especially one that honestly isn't all that visually complex.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/24 22:14:59


CoALabaer wrote:
Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Voss wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Voss wrote:
I'm pretty sure the Retributor squad kit makes 'canon' Retributors. I'm not sure what a 'non-canon' model would involve, though, so I'm pretty out at sea on what this is in reference to.
Come back to land, then.


Oh. Just another demand for chapter whomever #567 to have shoulder pads.

I was thinking of Sisters Retributor squads, not the latest Blood Ravens equivalent or whatever.
I know you were thinking SoB Retributors. You didn't realise they were talking about the Chapter from Astartes, which I what I linked to.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/24 22:26:05


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Germany

chaos0xomega wrote:
 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
Its possible Angels of Death is a lot more content than we realized...? Like a 20+ episode season of 1 hour episodes?


In that case it'll either look like a very bad and rushed PS1 cutscene or it'll consist of two guys running around with plastic cut-outs making voices, since GW doesn't remotely have the budget to make 20+ hours of any other kind of animation.


Theyve been working on it for at least 3 years, thats plenty of time for them to produce 20 hours of content - especially one that honestly isn't all that visually complex.


I feel like you're overestimating GW's capabilities to produce things that look good.

"Tabletop games are the only setting when a body is made more horrifying for NOT being chopped into smaller pieces."
- Jiado 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Voss wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Voss wrote:
I'm pretty sure the Retributor squad kit makes 'canon' Retributors. I'm not sure what a 'non-canon' model would involve, though, so I'm pretty out at sea on what this is in reference to.
Come back to land, then.


Oh. Just another demand for chapter whomever #567 to have shoulder pads.

I was thinking of Sisters Retributor squads, not the latest Blood Ravens equivalent or whatever.
I know you were thinking SoB Retributors. You didn't realise they were talking about the Chapter from Astartes, which I what I linked to.


Yep. That's why I responded to your clarification with 'a demand for chapter whomever #567 to have shoulderpads.'
I'm not sure why you're repeating it now.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba




The Great State of New Jersey

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
Its possible Angels of Death is a lot more content than we realized...? Like a 20+ episode season of 1 hour episodes?


In that case it'll either look like a very bad and rushed PS1 cutscene or it'll consist of two guys running around with plastic cut-outs making voices, since GW doesn't remotely have the budget to make 20+ hours of any other kind of animation.


Theyve been working on it for at least 3 years, thats plenty of time for them to produce 20 hours of content - especially one that honestly isn't all that visually complex.


I feel like you're overestimating GW's capabilities to produce things that look good.


How so? When I said "especially one that honestly isn't all that visually complex" I thought I was pretty clearly being polite in implying that it didn't look good.

But my statement wasn't really about looking good to begin with, it was about having a lot of time to produce a lot of episodes of content.

CoALabaer wrote:
Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
 
   
Made in us
Powerful Ushbati





United States

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
Its possible Angels of Death is a lot more content than we realized...? Like a 20+ episode season of 1 hour episodes?


In that case it'll either look like a very bad and rushed PS1 cutscene or it'll consist of two guys running around with plastic cut-outs making voices, since GW doesn't remotely have the budget to make 20+ hours of any other kind of animation.


Theyve been working on it for at least 3 years, thats plenty of time for them to produce 20 hours of content - especially one that honestly isn't all that visually complex.


I feel like you're overestimating GW's capabilities to produce things that look good.


I don't really follow. I mean they have a massive catalogue of amazing looking models, literally thousands of pages of incredible art, going back 30+ years. There is not a single company that can compete with them in terms of model quality in my opinion, even the stuff from the KD line isn't anywhere near the level of modeling quality that they produce. In terms of CG, I liked the old Ultramarines movie a lot. I watched it again recently and it really holds up quite well both in terms of animation and art, though I don't know if GW produced the art for that or if they hired an independent company? I know they hired the Astartes guy and people went nuts over that, I think they also partnered with the Death of Hope team as well?

Whatever happened to that Inquistor show that the guy from Ubisoft had been working on, I checked his Youtube and it's been dead for a couple of years in terms of updates?
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Voss wrote:
Yep. That's why I responded to your clarification with 'a demand for chapter whomever #567 to have shoulderpads.'
I'm not sure why you're repeating it now.
Sorry, it didn't seem like you got it and thought I was just referencing some random Chapter rather than the Chapter from that series.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Steadfast Grey Hunter





I been wondering about death if hope and lord inquisitor also
   
Made in gb
Thermo-Optical Hac Tao





Gosport, UK

chaos0xomega wrote:
Its possible Angels of Death is a lot more content than we realized...? Like a 20+ episode season of 1 hour episodes?


No, they mentioned the format of it on the stream. I can’t remember how many episodes they said but it wasn’t as many as 20 and they’re around 10 minutes each.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran



South East London

Angels of Death is 10 episodes at 10 minutes each

So total run time = 100 minutes

"Dig in and wait for Winter" 
   
Made in gb
Thinking of Joining a Davinite Loge




Nottingham, England

GW have recently hired in a new face for their Twitch programming, they're looking to push that forwards in the near future. We'll see him appearing in their videos soon. I'd be willing to bet that they're looking to bundle all of these services up together, somehow, including their YouTube channel, for one comprehensive Warhammer digitial resource.

Whether or not it'll work is another thing...
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Amazing I couldn't be less excited. To be offered the chance to pay GW more money over the already gobsmacking sum they charge for models and churn and burn rules bloat. Yeah a hard pass my life goes on just fine without this and I expect it will continue to do so.
   
Made in at
Second Story Man





Austria

with twitch becoming more of a softporno hosting site I can see why GW wants to get away from it and why bundling all of their digital content into one service is a good idea

yet having all their content behind a paywall might be not

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise 
   
Made in gb
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant





Teesside

I think the issue is going to be a relative lack of content. With only 100 minutes of time in their flagship show (Angels of Death), why do I want to sub for more than one month a year? Assuming they have say 20 shows, or 2000 minutes of total viewing content... well, I'm probably only super interested in a bit more than half of that, say 1200 minutes / 20 hours. I can watch that in a month pretty easily. It would barely even be binge-watching. Why would I stick around for month #2?

My painting & modelling blog: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/699224.page

Serpent King Games: Dragon Warriors Reborn!
http://serpentking.com/

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 techsoldaten wrote:
Ahem.

We can probably look at what GW has done historically to predict what will appear on Warhammer+.

They take another franchise (historical / sci-fi, commercially successful) and incorporate a close cousin into the lore behind their games. Tolkien, Dune, Aliens, 2000AD, etc, it's not hard to see the influence.

If history is any indicator, GW aspires to incorporate existing digital content into Warhammer+. They're already doing it with animation, it makes sense they would do it with other digital video content.

The existing digital video space for GW content consists of:

- Batreps
- Painting Tutorials
- "Podcasts" talking about the game
- Video Game coverage
- Cosplay

My guess is they talk to MWG, Tabletop Tactics, Striking Scorpion, Deployment Zone TV, and whoever else gets the most traffic on YouTube. They offer distribution / revenue in exchange for producing batreps exclusive on the service. That costs them very little, gains them personalities with an existing audience all while eliminating no-cost competition.


I think the problem with that is all those things listed are currently available for free on YT/Twitch. Alternatively, if you're specifically interested in one of those areas over another, there are a lot of channels that provide extra content for paid subscribers and you get exactly what you want without ending up with a bunch of extra content you're not interested in.

If GW did try to pull some of those existing creators into the fold I think the best thing any of them could do would be to refuse. If any went with GW it would just increase the market share of the ones who stayed on YT or their own paid sites. TTT, for example, already somehow manage to pay 5.5 full-time staff so they don't seem to need the financial security of a salaried position at GW and the risk of alienating and losing your audience seems pretty high if you go all-in with GW's streaming service and GW then pulls the plug.

I'd have to agree with your prediction that such a service would fail.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Again all our worries about value for service really need us to know what's on the service in full and what the prices are. We don't really know either fact right now so predicting good or bad is nearly impossible.

All we know is that the service is coming. If anything I think one issue this highlights is that GW hasn't had a reliable timeframe or estimations of a tim eframe on any of this and have drip fed details for a long time. It's perhaps a good show of why GW doesn't typically preview things so early to us, because when they can't give a time frame and when they can't give enough details it just leads to people chasing down discussion rabbit holes which get forever further and further from the limited info we get. Be they good or bad conclusions they are based on so little information that they are unreliable and yet they form a core part of peoples early impressions.

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





It's GW I can read in the bones the price will be either insane, or feel like a steal while you get bare minimum effort making the " deal " actually be them bending you over in the end. Just one clowns opinion but we will see.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/25 11:01:35


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

If you're reading signs about GW in bones you're doing it wrong. You gotta read the signs in the sprues!!

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in at
Second Story Man





Austria

we read it in plastic bones in sprues, and those are breaking

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

Slipspace wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
My guess is they talk to MWG, Tabletop Tactics, Striking Scorpion, Deployment Zone TV, and whoever else gets the most traffic on YouTube. They offer distribution / revenue in exchange for producing batreps exclusive on the service. That costs them very little, gains them personalities with an existing audience all while eliminating no-cost competition.


I think the problem with that is all those things listed are currently available for free on YT/Twitch. Alternatively, if you're specifically interested in one of those areas over another, there are a lot of channels that provide extra content for paid subscribers and you get exactly what you want without ending up with a bunch of extra content you're not interested in.

If GW did try to pull some of those existing creators into the fold I think the best thing any of them could do would be to refuse. If any went with GW it would just increase the market share of the ones who stayed on YT or their own paid sites. TTT, for example, already somehow manage to pay 5.5 full-time staff so they don't seem to need the financial security of a salaried position at GW and the risk of alienating and losing your audience seems pretty high if you go all-in with GW's streaming service and GW then pulls the plug.

I'd have to agree with your prediction that such a service would fail.


Not sure I agree a decision to pass is optimal.

Those creators would be wise to consider the Matthew Effect and Pareto Distributions. They apply in any digital context.

GW is looking to enter the streaming content space with a paid service, their natural competition is existing batrep / painting channels. GW currently markets through these channels by giving them early access to new books, but each of these channels offers a paid option that's being diverted from what could be going to Warhammer+ instead. The actual revenue earned by these channels is likely marginal, what matters most for Warhammer+ audience growth is being perceived as "the best." They don't want to be charging for something a customer could get elsewhere for free, and they don't want anyone with a decent sized audience sending anything less than an enthusiastic message about a service they're trying to grow.

I listed 4 channels. Each has a different sized audience and offers serialized content on a regular schedule. For the sake of discussion, let's call them #1 - #4.

#1 gets the most traffic currently and generates enough revenue to pay staff and turn a profit. Is it a good idea for #1 to explore a partnership with Warhammer+?

Not doing a deal means GW goes down the list, until they reach #4. #4 is charismatic and knowledgeable about the game, but his audience is roughly 15% that of #1. This is because of constraints, #4 also has a day job and can't produce content as frequently as #1. So #4 does a deal and starts publishing with Warhammer+. He structures the deal in a way that pays him enough he doesn't have to work the day job, allowing him to publish more frequently. He keeps his existing YT audience and continues publishing there, it's his members-only content that goes on Warhammer+. He also takes advantage of GW's enormous marketing advantages to build his personal profile with customers who've never even heard of him.

#4 would not stay #4 very long. Even if Warhammer+ tanks, #4 would likely grow his audience simply by being mentioned a few times on Warhammer Community. You could use a Lorenz Curve to predict how long it will take for #4 to surpass #1, it boils down to a function of time and money.

Not sure #1 wants all that to happen. Doing a deal with Warhammer+ might be in their best interests, in the short term, to preserve status and chase off competition. In the long run, what's in their best interests depends on what GW decides to do. If #1 sees #2 - #4 all coming on board, i.e. if Warhammer+ turns into a big pond, #1 might find it's best to walk away, which could mean a lot of things (including producing other kinds of content besides batreps, or doing a Duncan Rhodes and starting your own studio.)

This is exactly the model ESPN used to grow in the 80s, they hired popular local broadcasters who did straight sports news and gave them an opportunity to grow their brand before a national audience. Many of them transitioned from straight news to feature pieces and, by doing so, became celebrities with enough crossover appeal to appear in other forms of entertainment. The point was to use the platform ESPN gave them to grow their personal brand and see where it takes them.

Obviously, I don't know what form Warhammer+ is going to take. But I know GW needs to build an audience for this to catch on, they are going to have to work with people in the space who already have audiences. Game theory suggests incorporating batreps would be the low-cost option to acquire users, but the incentives need to be structured in a way that fosters benefits for creators relative to their existing place in the market. Entertainment and influencer marketing are very different from GW's existing business model and how well they adapt to this new space will have a big impact on the odds of success for Warhammer+.

My guess is that GW doesn't adapt and the streaming service fails to catch on. They're not going to put old audiobooks on the service because they don't give anything away for free. That corporate culture is not inline with streaming services, which are about making small amounts of money off massive numbers of users and keeping them on the service for the longest time possible. Thinking about Conservative Christian broadcasting services from the 90s, there was a string of them that failed because they were financed by billionares who made their money in chemicals and thought that's the way every business works. It's not, and the culture clash is probably what's going to keep this from soaring.

We'll see. But the question of incentives in this situation is fascinating.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/25 15:25:38


   
Made in de
Battlefield Tourist






Nuremberg

I'm definitely not the target audience for this. I hate subscription models and don't even have netflix.

But no skin of my nose therefore if this goes ahead. I wasn't super into any of the animation and I don't care about exclusive models.

GW video content is readily available for free all over youtube if I want it. If they start DMCA-ing those people then I'll just not be watching any content and my interest will be less. I doubt they would do that though since that stuff is free advertising.

   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

 Da Boss wrote:
I'm definitely not the target audience for this. I hate subscription models and don't even have netflix.

I'm in mostly the same boat. I'd be interested if they had subscription cards I could grab in person though.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







 kodos wrote:
with twitch becoming more of a softporno hosting site I can see why GW wants to get away from it and why bundling all of their digital content into one service is a good idea


Just because they made a TOS change you disagree with, doe snot mean Twitch is becoming a softporn site.

Jesus H Christ on a unicycle...

2021-4 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

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Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
Made in at
Second Story Man





Austria

 Dysartes wrote:
 kodos wrote:
with twitch becoming more of a softporno hosting site I can see why GW wants to get away from it and why bundling all of their digital content into one service is a good idea


Just because they made a TOS change you disagree with, doe snot mean Twitch is becoming a softporn site.

Jesus H Christ on a unicycle...

what TOS change?

it is about the content that starts dominating the site since pandemic (or already before that)

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba




The Great State of New Jersey

I saw a headline the other day about allowing streaming from hot tubs or kiddie pools or something, I assume that has something to do with it.

CoALabaer wrote:
Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
 
   
Made in gb
Moustache-twirling Princeps




United Kingdom

 Dysartes wrote:
 kodos wrote:
with twitch becoming more of a softporno hosting site I can see why GW wants to get away from it and why bundling all of their digital content into one service is a good idea


Just because they made a TOS change you disagree with, doe snot mean Twitch is becoming a softporn site.

Jesus H Christ on a unicycle...


3-day ban for a hot tub streamer who showed her butthole vs. a permi-ban for a gamer who mentioned a giveaway in their chat. We can all see which way it's going...
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




Googled „Is Twitch becoming a soft porn site“.

Clearly was a super-hot topic in 2014-ish.
   
Made in gb
Moustache-twirling Princeps




United Kingdom

chaos0xomega wrote:
I saw a headline the other day about allowing streaming from hot tubs or kiddie pools or something, I assume that has something to do with it.

"Pools, Hot Tubs, and Beaches" is now it's own category if you want to watch people wearing very little.
   
 
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