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Gwar! wrote:
The only "dud" unit I can seem to find in this book are the penal legion troops, since you have to randomly determine their skills, which means you cant rely on them to fill out a specific roll. I thought GW had learned from the Chaos Codex, Random Skills is not useful!

However they at least get to roll for their "power" before deployment, so you know what their role is going to be during deployment.

Necros wrote:I was just thinking..... are commissars a bad idea? Like, if you need your company or platoon commander to issue orders, but he messes up and the commissar blows his face off, I guess that means no more orders will be coming?

Or are commissars better for your regular squads, and not in the command squads? what's the real use of a commssar anyway? Or commissar lord? are they just really there to provide better leadership sometimes but also good for close combat? Will squads always use a commissar's leadership if they have one? or only if he kills the sergeant? At 35 pts (I think?) it seems kinda pricey for regular squads, but might not be bad for command squads, but then it seems risky to add to command squads if 1 failed leadership test could mean no more orders anymore

Company command squads can not take a commissar.

Other folks have already covered all of the other points.

Oh snap, the background for Harker is just so over the top.

So, any verdicts on which Russ variant to take?

Sounds like the optimum TANKS (as in, NOT Vendettas) are the bland Russ, the Griffon, and the Colossus. Any other dissenting opinions?

Scottywan82 wrote:So, any verdicts on which Russ variant to take?

Sounds like the optimum TANKS (as in, NOT Vendettas) are the bland Russ, the Griffon, and the Colossus. Any other dissenting opinions?

The Vanquisher is by far the optimum Anti Tank Tank, especially in a squad of 3. 72" with armour Penetration of 8+2D6 no matter the range? yes please.

Gwar! wrote:
The only "dud" unit I can seem to find in this book are the penal legion troops, since you have to randomly determine their skills, which means you cant rely on them to fill out a specific roll. I thought GW had learned from the Chaos Codex, Random Skills is not useful!

Well, they're an outflanking, stubborn, scoring unit, cost about as much as an infantry squad with guns, and their abilities (although random) are not that bad.

Are the going to make it into serious lists? Probably not.

But are they "duds"? I think that's a bit harsh.

JB wrote:Company command squads can not take a commissar.

One of the WTF moments of the new Codex . Made me scratch my head when I first heard this and I still can´t understand the point ( if there is one ) for this change. So long as Comissars have been around the whole point of their existence ( rule and fluffwise ) has been to maintain order by keeping the officers under surveillance. Executing the lower echelon officers ( sergeants and lieutenants ) leading squads and platoons won´t matter, if the colonel leading the WHOLE REGIMENT loses his nerve.

EDIT: Regarding the Penal troops. I concur that they are not a complete dud ( BoxAnt pretty much covered the points ). Outflanking+Stubborn can be used to tie up some rear echelon enemy support units. Also just finished converting and painting my "Psychopath/Knifefighter" squad . Now all I have to do is give each of the convicted poor bastards a name. "Undertaker" ( armed with a shovel ), "Elvis" ( sunglasses ), "Pigkiller" ( big Catachan blade ) and so on .

Gwar! wrote:

Scottywan82 wrote:So, any verdicts on which Russ variant to take?

Sounds like the optimum TANKS (as in, NOT Vendettas) are the bland Russ, the Griffon, and the Colossus. Any other dissenting opinions?

The Vanquisher is by far the optimum Anti Tank Tank, especially in a squad of 3. 72" with armour Penetration of 8+2D6 no matter the range? yes please.

Hmm... I'm not so sure. That's pretty expensive for a one-use squad, and they'll only hit 1-2 times per turn when all three are out on the board. If you hit, bam, that's devastating, but wouldn't a bunch of melta-vets in a chimera be a better deal? At least they'd be scoring.

I think the lumbering rule now makes the demolisher a more attractive option than ever before. Its the cheapest of the upgraded Hull variants and the AP 2 is always something you can use more of. Being able to move and fire makes its range less of a detriment.

Good point. I think those will be working their way into my list. But exterminator or eradicator?

JB wrote:Company command squads can not take a commissar.

Other folks have already covered all of the other points.

Well what I was thinking of was using a commissar lord and adding him to the CCS. Then setting up my platoon with the 2 Lascannon squads within 6", so that squad can use Bring it down, and then make their test off of the commisar lord's 6" LD bubble. So, I'd be able to get 6 twinlinked lascannons But, I guess it would work just as well with the commissar lord all by himself and just right next to the squads..

A-P wrote:

JB wrote:Company command squads can not take a commissar.

One of the WTF moments of the new Codex . Made me scratch my head when I first heard this and I still can´t understand the point ( if there is one ) for this change. So long as Comissars have been around the whole point of their existence ( rule and fluffwise ) has been to maintain order by keeping the officers under surveillance. Executing the lower echelon officers ( sergeants and lieutenants ) leading squads and platoons won´t matter, if the colonel leading the WHOLE REGIMENT loses his nerve.

The idea of loosing my Senior officer, and thus 2 Orders (the good orders), to one bad Morale roll makes me cringe.

I'd rather have a running Senior Officer, than a dead Senior Officer....

And besides, stick a Reg. Standard in the CCS and you'll get the reroll anyways.

BoxANT wrote:
The idea of loosing my Senior officer, and thus 2 Orders (the good orders), to one bad Morale roll makes me cringe.

I'd rather have a running Senior Officer, than a dead Senior Officer....

And besides, stick a Reg. Standard in the CCS and you'll get the reroll anyways.

No argument about the living officer vs dead officer. My point was more about the fact that the new system is an arbitrary ( heh ) restriction that goes against ancient Guard tradition both rule and fluffwise.

About the loadout of the CCS. I´m coming to the conclusion that either I´ll keep it with bare minimum upgrades ( save points ) OR go all the way ( medic, standard, advisors and whatnot ), no halfmeasures. The CCS will be a priority target, so the options are a) spread the command network to multiple nodes or b) try to make sure the primary central node is adequately protected with bells and whistles.

A-P wrote:

BoxANT wrote:
The idea of loosing my Senior officer, and thus 2 Orders (the good orders), to one bad Morale roll makes me cringe.

I'd rather have a running Senior Officer, than a dead Senior Officer....

And besides, stick a Reg. Standard in the CCS and you'll get the reroll anyways.

No argument about the living officer vs dead officer. My point was more about the fact that the new system is an arbitrary ( heh ) restriction that goes against ancient Guard tradition both rule and fluffwise.

About the loadout of the CCS. I´m coming to the conclusion that either I´ll keep it with bare minimum upgrades ( save points ) OR go all the way ( medic, standard, advisors and whatnot ), no halfmeasures. The CCS will be a priority target, so the options are a) spread the command network to multiple nodes or b) try to make sure the primary central node is adequately protected with bells and whistles.

Im thinking your right, you can make a very nasty command squad that is pretty tough to kill(minus instant death stuff). But itl cost ya, and going half way wont help much. Perhaps a vanilla CCS with a lascannon to make use of the BS 4. The problem with it seems to be that unless you run the squad up with your troops, your orders will become kinda useless because of range. But if your going to run them up, you better make sure they can survive.

You could just drop a vanilla squad in a chimera and follow the troops in.

A-P wrote:

BoxANT wrote:
The idea of loosing my Senior officer, and thus 2 Orders (the good orders), to one bad Morale roll makes me cringe.

I'd rather have a running Senior Officer, than a dead Senior Officer....

And besides, stick a Reg. Standard in the CCS and you'll get the reroll anyways.

No argument about the living officer vs dead officer. My point was more about the fact that the new system is an arbitrary ( heh ) restriction that goes against ancient Guard tradition both rule and fluffwise.

About the loadout of the CCS. I´m coming to the conclusion that either I´ll keep it with bare minimum upgrades ( save points ) OR go all the way ( medic, standard, advisors and whatnot ), no halfmeasures. The CCS will be a priority target, so the options are a) spread the command network to multiple nodes or b) try to make sure the primary central node is adequately protected with bells and whistles.

I hear ya.

I think a Standard will still be an almost mandatory choice, just to keep your firebase intact from enemy shooting.


On one hand, CCS ofers a rather cheap BS4 unit, but on the other hand, you really don't want to loose those Orders (the good ones). Personally, I'm thinking a CCS w/ Standard in a Chimera offers a good balance. Perhaps slap an advisor or two in the mix. But if I want to spend more than that, I might as well take Creed.

I'm considering having two company command squads. There's no restriction anymore, and the basic orders don't really impress me. At 50 points base, they're quite cheap, and can be kitted out with some nice gizmos. I feel two squads, kept below 100 points (more when including a chimera of course), may be pretty effective. I might even toss in some GLs when usin a chimera; some additional S6 shots wouldn't go amiss! If the FAQ confirms that advisor abilities stack two masters of te fleet would be extremely nasty vs armies that rely on deepstrike.

Platoon command squads otoh seem quite expendable to me; they'll be the guys toting 4 flamers.

Creed seems pretty mandatory though: a useful range on his orders and the abilty to give a unit scout means I'll be able to have some outflanking vets after all. Harker is also a nice option, but pretty expensive.

I'll disagree with that. Penal troops seem like useful CC counterchargers or flankers if they get either FC / Fleet or Rending / +1 attack and they get combo-ed with Straken. They flank, attack at I4 with S4 (and frags), and either fleet or rend with an extra attack. Not bad for 8 pts/guy. The assault 2 rifle seems lame unless you can put them in a line and use them to mop up what your tanks can't finish alone.

Stormtroopers seem like a waste to me. Hellguns are so short ranged that you can count on getting either blasted or charged after that first volley, then you will lose all of them. Not worth 16 pts each. Ogryns are also a waste, as are the primaris, commissars, and priests.

CommissarKhaine wrote:I'm considering having two company command squads. There's no restriction anymore, and the basic orders don't really impress me. At 50 points base, they're quite cheap, and can be kitted out with some nice gizmos. I feel two squads, kept below 100 points (more when including a chimera of course), may be pretty effective. I might even toss in some GLs when usin a chimera; some additional S6 shots wouldn't go amiss! If the FAQ confirms that advisor abilities stack two masters of te fleet would be extremely nasty vs armies that rely on deepstrike.

Platoon command squads otoh seem quite expendable to me; they'll be the guys toting 4 flamers.

Creed seems pretty mandatory though: a useful range on his orders and the abilty to give a unit scout means I'll be able to have some outflanking vets after all. Harker is also a nice option, but pretty expensive.

Can confirm, one of each advisor per CCS except bodyguards (2 per CCS).

Possible list

HQ


CCS Reg Standard, 2x Plasma 95
Chimera ML, HFlamer 55

Troops


Infantry Platoon
PCS 2xFlamer 40
Infantry Squad 50
Infantry Squad 50
HWS 2xHB, Auto 75
HWS 3xLascannon 105

Vet Squad 3xPlasma 115
Chimera ML,HFlamer 55

Vet Squad 3xPlasma 115
Chimera ML,HFlamer 55

Elites


Marbo 65

Heavy

Leman Russ Demo HB Sponsons 185

Leman Russ Demo HB Sponsons 185

*seperate units*

Fast


Scout Sentinel Squad 3xMissle 135

Devil Dog 120

Total: 1500

what if you have 2 CCS with advisors in each? do their abilities combine?

usernamesareannoying wrote:what if you have 2 CCS with advisors in each? do their abilities combine?

We don't know for sure.

Nothng says no, so the default answer is yes until the FAQ it up.

Scottywan82 wrote:So, any verdicts on which Russ variant to take?

Sounds like the optimum TANKS (as in, NOT Vendettas) are the bland Russ, the Griffon, and the Colossus. Any other dissenting opinions?

I like Eradicators more than anything else. Executioners were SHOCKINGLY good versus marines in a recent test game. (Like, 'please pick up your unit and put it back in its case' good)

I really think I might even like the exterminator better than the standard russ. The standard suffers from a serious case of 'i can shoot at anything' But not really excellent at any one army. If we are talking CSM, then the executioner wrecks deep striking obliterators, doesn't let plague marines have feel no pain AND can put more than one wound on a prince. If we are talking about SM, the executioner kills power armor as well as a russ and hurts terminators of all varieties (yes I know what a storm shield is. I'd rather shoot an executioner at a thammer unit than a russ.) I will concede that cost is certainly a factor, but unless something is horrifyingly overcosted, I tend to look first at what role I need filled, and worry about points efficiency later.

And then of course for 10 more points than a standard russ, you get 2x the killing power against orks/IG/tyranid/eldar in the eradicator. Marines in cover gain 16% survivability against it, and the threat of instant death is gone. But I think that it's all worth the blanket cover ignore. it wrecks so many horde armies basic strategies.

For artillery I agree with you. The griffon and the colossus are singing loudest in my ear. I like far more artillery variants than russ variants though. The griffon is best in show i think. Dirt cheap, decent range band to work with and frighteningly accurate. But no cover ignore outside of the barrage interaction keeps it from being a '6 of' no brainer. Colossus has one MAJOR flaw, but outside of that flaw it is just an 'I win' button. Lootas just LOSE against a guy with a couple colossi. That alone makes me ridiculously happy. I REFUSE to be outshot by orks.

But I like the hydra too. 225 points buys you 9 autocannon hits. A perfect comparison, offensively speaking is actually, lootas. For 225 points you get, on average, 10 autocannon hits. It is a lot more swingy, but after a million games, thats what you'll get. So one less hit, vulnerable to anti-tank, invulnerable to anti-infantry, longer range, and the ability to move and fire with reduced effectiveness.

The manticore is still on my list because I am a huge fan of front-loaded damage. I'd rather get my payload delivered up front, even if it can end up taking itself out of the fight when it runs out of ammo. I would have loved to see the manticore be strength 6 and 90 points, but I still like it despite its mostly wasted strength. I'll take the steeper price tag and the 'nothing else to shoot at so might as well shoot at a tank' ability.

I was just looking at the medusa again last night. At first it seems so silly of a tank. But for laughs I just looked at it for a while. For starters its got the best tank killing shot in all of 40k, at any range. strength 10 ap 1 2d6 pen? Unless you roll lower than 5 on 2d6, thats essentially a strength d shot. The other shot is pretty tame, nothing special, but still a large blast. The way the vehicle is set up, you could guarantee it a 4+ cover by parking a chimera in front of it. If you were feeling spendy you could camo net it. I'm not saying that the medusa is tier 1 uberness, I haven't even tried it in game, but one of the thoughts I recently had was to see about making a top tier guard list without a single meltagun. If i can answer the questions that everyone else is answering with meltas with something from long range, then that will let me just line up a NASTY gunline and draw people into my guns, then I'll use my fast attack slots to claim and block. The medusa could help me do that, as could the previously loathed vanquisher.

I'm just about positive the Medusa would get a 3+ cover save upped to a 2+ if camo netted due to the gun being on the rearmost quadrant of the model. With rear-mounted guns you can easily conceal 100% of the front facing as you noted. Because the gun can still 'see' over the top, however, it can still shoot.

Also, the Medusa's Bunker Buster shot is what I intend to use as long range anti heavy tank. The Medusa blows the Vanquisher out of the water in terms of usefulness; 48" range small blast is much better than a BS3 Vanquisher shot at the same or less distance, especially against things like Land Raiders where you can scatter 3" (total of 6-3) and still hit the stupid thing. Avg penetration of 17 and Ap1 seals the deal.

But with only a direct shot and no barrage, it loses out to some of the other artilery. You really need them in groups of three, but even then...

CommissarKhaine wrote:I'm considering having two company command squads. There's no restriction anymore, and the basic orders don't really impress me. At 50 points base, they're quite cheap, and can be kitted out with some nice gizmos. I feel two squads, kept below 100 points (more when including a chimera of course), may be pretty effective. I might even toss in some GLs when usin a chimera; some additional S6 shots wouldn't go amiss! If the FAQ confirms that advisor abilities stack two masters of te fleet would be extremely nasty vs armies that rely on deepstrike.

Platoon command squads otoh seem quite expendable to me; they'll be the guys toting 4 flamers.

Creed seems pretty mandatory though: a useful range on his orders and the abilty to give a unit scout means I'll be able to have some outflanking vets after all. Harker is also a nice option, but pretty expensive.

I'm leaning towards two CCS as well for my mech veteran list. It is cheaper to have a CCC with four melta than a veteran squad with three. LD9 and the ability to give themselves "Bring it Down" when they disembark is just gravy. The big question now is whether or not to use voxes and give one or both CCS a regimental standard. The voxes improve the likelihood of orders and the regimental standard reduces the likelihood of a pin result if my Chimera gets wrecked. Since I'll likely run 2 other Chimeras (vet flamer squad, vet melta squad) next to one of the CCS, those squads will also benefit from the standard and can use orders/vox if they disembark for shooting. Of course, the huge drawback is a 30 point price tag for standards and 35 points for seven units to have vox casters. That 65 points could almost buy another basic vet squad or another Griffon. I need to playtest the options and see which I like best.

Sorry to interject fellas, but how exactly do the Valkyries work? Can you select a squad (like Veterans, Special Weapons, or Stormtroopers) to be embarked in it before you deploy, and then use the Scout/Deep Strike rules of the Valkyries to bring the squad in from reserves? Thanks!

synchronicity wrote:Sorry to interject fellas, but how exactly do the Valkyries work? Can you select a squad (like Veterans, Special Weapons, or Stormtroopers) to be embarked in it before you deploy, and then use the Scout/Deep Strike rules of the Valkyries to bring the squad in from reserves? Thanks!

This is a matter for debate. The rules say you can, but a lot of people stubbornly insist that they cant because the guardsmen inside cannot.

These are the same people who have no problem with Tactical Marines Deep Striking in Via Drop pod though, so hilarity ensues.

Hmm, according to the Valkyrie fluff in the codex this one counts as a fast skimmer because of extra armour weighing it down, disabling it from flying high altitudes. So the FW rules are a "lighter" version..

I've been trying to build a few lists, and chimera seem to make the cut a lot more often now. CCS, psychic choir, melta vets,... all benefit from a nice armourd pillbox. Has anyone else experience this as well, or am I justy blinded by the perceived cheapness of what is still an av 10 to the side tank? I mean, valks are nice, but you van have two chimeras for one vendetta...