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Chimeras are the business nowadays. With Transports being so safe, its not acceptable to not use them.

I personally see myself using it to transport a sacrificial Melta Squad about.

Gwar! wrote:Chimeras are the business nowadays. With Transports being so safe, its not acceptable to not use them.

I personally see myself using it to transport a sacrificial Melta Squad about.

Yes. Chimeras are still Armor 12/10/10 but use them and love them. Its not like the Guard has a lot of options ( Valk/Vendy? Baneblade size flyer, good luck finding cover ). putting your HQ inside a Chimera and parking it in cover equipped with a Camo-Net sounds like a good ( if a bit pricey ) tactic.

And lets not forget that Officers can still issue orders from them

Well after looking at the leak ; I'd say there is pretty much no reason to not ever take Creed.

He really is just to good of a character and will become the Eldrad of the Codex.

Priests are not bad when you consider they dont take up force organization and can join squads.

They are a HQ choice though so in KP missions they are a liability.



I still say the most broken lists will be those that Mix Sisters of Battle and Greyknights w/ the lists.

Orders + Faithpoints = broken.

I think some of the better lists are taking the barest minimum of infantry for scoring purposes and chucking out cheap tanks for everything else. The only real reason to take infantry is 1. Scoring and 2. You like Lasguns. If we regard infantry as the medium by which heavy weapons are taken, then you should just grab Chimeras attached to your "good units" like Psykers, Vets, and HQ Command squads. It makes the whole orders thing pretty moot.

Hollismason wrote:Well after looking at the leak ; I'd say there is pretty much no reason to not ever take Creed.

Now that we've all seen the codex. I just don't see how this is true. I gotta break this down again.

Ok 90 points in addition to the 50 for a command squad buys us 2 more orders a turn and a 24" radius to issue those orders.

For 50 points, I can get two more orders a turn, with an additional 5 model unit. Each of my company command squads will have a 12" radius. Between the two of them, I'll have the same order coverage as creed, and it will be spread over two different units. Much safer, and 40 points cheaper to boot.

Ok, Creed is the peanut butter to kell's jelly lets look at him. He has good close combat potential i will grant him that. But as most guard players will tell you, avoiding close combat is a more wise proposition than preparing for it. (not sure if I agree, but in many situations, this is true) So lets look at what he does...

Leadership 10 (or is it 9) for all orders (is it also morale and pinning) to all units within 24".

Cool, so 24" range high leadership orders for creed. Well how about I take two command squads, and I take voxes on my six line squads along with the command squads. That's only 40 points. Leadership 10 passes orders 91% of the time. Re-rolled leadership 8 passes 92% of the time. And the eggs aren't all in one basket. If kell's leadership extender does indeed cover moral and pinning as well, then lets just factor in 2 regimental banners.

so creed 90
command squad number two 50

kell 85
two regimental banners and eight voxes 70

So theres 55 points. Which is enough to cover a brand new chimera for my second command squad.

Creed and Kell are 'cool' and if I played a cadian army, I'd occasionally take them. But they are a far cry from mandatory.

Your kind of leaving out his other orders though.

For 90 points you dont just get " 24 inch range"

A unit any unit gets Scout , this is pretty brutal in itself considering your Leman Russ Demolishers or Squad of Hellhounds now outflank and with an Advisor get plus + to the roll and reroll.

He can give 4 orders a turn. That's pretty awesome.

4 units having Fearless and Furious Charge. Not bad at all.

If i was gonna take creed id just go hog wild and take nork a med kit and lots of plasma

I also thought Creed was going to be mandatory choice.

But two CCS + Standards = two 24" bubbles with reroll morale, 4 orders, and 10 BS4 models. Not bad at all.

Not that "fluffly", having two CCS... but oh well

schrag wrote:If i was gonna take creed id just go hog wild and take nork a med kit and lots of plasma

Dont forget a chimera

Shep wrote:

Hollismason wrote:Well after looking at the leak ; I'd say there is pretty much no reason to not ever take Creed.

Now that we've all seen the codex. I just don't see how this is true. I gotta break this down again.

Ok 90 points in addition to the 50 for a command squad buys us 2 more orders a turn and a 24" radius to issue those orders.

For 50 points, I can get two more orders a turn, with an additional 5 model unit. Each of my company command squads will have a 12" radius. Between the two of them, I'll have the same order coverage as creed, and it will be spread over two different units. Much safer, and 40 points cheaper to boot.

Ok, Creed is the peanut butter to kell's jelly lets look at him. He has good close combat potential i will grant him that. But as most guard players will tell you, avoiding close combat is a more wise proposition than preparing for it. (not sure if I agree, but in many situations, this is true) So lets look at what he does...

Leadership 10 (or is it 9) for all orders (is it also morale and pinning) to all units within 24".

Cool, so 24" range high leadership orders for creed. Well how about I take two command squads, and I take voxes on my six line squads along with the command squads. That's only 40 points. Leadership 10 passes orders 91% of the time. Re-rolled leadership 8 passes 92% of the time. And the eggs aren't all in one basket. If kell's leadership extender does indeed cover moral and pinning as well, then lets just factor in 2 regimental banners.

so creed 90
command squad number two 50

kell 85
two regimental banners and eight voxes 70

So theres 55 points. Which is enough to cover a brand new chimera for my second command squad.

Creed and Kell are 'cool' and if I played a cadian army, I'd occasionally take them. But they are a far cry from mandatory.

Area of a circle = pi*radius^2.
Creed's leadership bubble: ~12 sq. ft.
Two "normal" officers: ~6 sq. ft.

If you get Creed to midfield, his bubble covers a non-trivial portion of the table, and reaches deep into enemy deployment zones (handy for suicidal Vets).

I haven't taken a position on how mandatory they are (or even how crucial the Orders system is), but let's make sure our comparisons are valid.

*edit: Hmm. I typed "pi*r^2." That "are" was typed as the letter. Anti-textspeak filter for the lose.

The Leman Russ battle tank guy is pretty awesome as well. I mean that is a fantastic upgrade for 50 points. I am unsure of what crack shot exactly does though.

yes the Tank Commander is great. No Chance of giving up a KP like Chronos, and has bonuses when shooting at vehicles/Monstrous Creatures. Oh and BS 4. Heavy 20 BS 4 Tank anyone?

what do you guys think of marbo? i love everything about him, except his save....but im gonna give him a whirl before i write it off. could be good for a suicide assassination mission.

marbo is pretty useless IMO.

"Oh look I pop up anywhere and fire a demo charge that will most likely kill me wheeeeeeeeeee oh crap I cant assault here comes the pain" before a single squad causes 6 or 7 wounds on him and kills him before he does anything useful. Im not saying the Democharge popup isn't nice, but its too unreliable and just gives away a easy killpoint. might have some use to counter Nob Bikers however, since he can pop up wherever they are.

I'm surprised to see they didn't buff up Shotguns like they did for Marines however. -Shrug-

CommissarKhaine wrote:I've been trying to build a few lists, and chimera seem to make the cut a lot more often now. CCS, psychic choir, melta vets,... all benefit from a nice armourd pillbox. Has anyone else experience this as well, or am I justy blinded by the perceived cheapness of what is still an av 10 to the side tank? I mean, valks are nice, but you van have two chimeras for one vendetta...

I agree but then I've always wanted a lot of mech with supporting LRBTs, Hellhounds, etc.
But I do believe that 5th Edition and the new IG Codex mean...

Welcome to VehicleHammer!

I think we are already compensating via the Age of the Melta and anything else that can crumple vehicles quickly (Nobz with PK for example). But VehicleHammer won't truly be ascendant until they return the capability for SM/CSM to Rhino Rush.

Back on topic: I'm weighing lists with 7-8 Chimeras, 0-1 Hellhound, 2 LRBTs, and 2 Griffons.

Now if you really want to start a discussion....
Can anyone point out where it says in the codex that you can only take 0-1 Sly Marbo?

Gwar! wrote:yes the Tank Commander is great. No Chance of giving up a KP like Chronos, and has bonuses when shooting at vehicles/Monstrous Creatures. Oh and BS 4. Heavy 20 BS 4 Tank anyone?

Eh - not really that great.

Optimum case: you mount him in the silly Heavy 20 tank, with hull/sponson HBs and a PMHS. 29 S5 shots, 3 S4 shots, all at BS 4: 19.33 S5 hits, 2 S4 hits. Without him, it's a BS 3 tank: 14.5 S5 hits, 1.5 S4 hits. He increases tank accuracy by 25%; he increases cost by a bit more than 25%. Really, the only advantages he offers are reduced KP count (as compared with his weight in more tanks) and/or reduced cost of models.

More likely case: put him in a Vanquisher, if you're actually going to take one - you don't get to roll enough dice for statistically significant results there, and his BS 4 will shape the probability a bit in your favor.

I'm more likely to just buy another Chimera, though.

well dropping him into cover is a must. he has fleet, so you could still likely get into CC his next turn, the problem is that you need to survive the CC round and NOT kill the otehr squad, because if you destroy the squad you cant hit and run back to cover.

jp400 wrote:Now if you really want to start a discussion....
Can anyone point out where it says in the codex that you can only take 0-1 Sly Marbo?

i assume

Unit Type:
Infantry (Unique)

Settles that

BoxANT wrote:I also thought Creed was going to be mandatory choice.

But two CCS + Standards = two 24" bubbles with reroll morale, 4 orders, and 10 BS4 models. Not bad at all.

Not that "fluffly", having two CCS... but oh well

...and don't forget that you also get to re-roll Pinning tests!

jp400 wrote:Now if you really want to start a discussion....
Can anyone point out where it says in the codex that you can only take 0-1 Sly Marbo?

The bit where it says Unique, and the bit in the rulebook that says you cannot take more than one Unique Character.

Don't try and be a smartarse.

Also, I have finally twigged why you cannot buy a Commissar for a CCS as some people were pointing out before. It's because you put a LORD Commissar (as your second HQ sadly) in with them. After all, he's a fairly High Ranking officer, It just doesn't seem proper for a run of the mill commissar to make sure he follows procedure now does it. Also game balance (I still cant think of "Balance" and "Imperial Guard" with a straight face any more)

About the Griffolossus combo: what happens when the Griffon is the closest vehicle to the target that is over 48" away. Does the whole salvo miss or does the Colossus get to roll to hit?

MikeK wrote:About the Griffolossus combo: what happens when the Griffon is the closest vehicle to the target that is over 48" away. Does the whole salvo miss or does the Colossus get to roll to hit?

It works exactly the same as infantry with different weapons. Each Model in range roll to hit, those out of range automatically miss.

Even considering the way the rule states how multiple barrages are to be fired?

In that case, if the first model cannot fire, use the next model as the "closest" model. if it was the case that if the one model cannot fire, none can, that means a single Shaken result can stop the whole squadron from firing. Not to mention that the Multiple barrage rules detail the firing of the same weapon, so In actuality I would say you have to roll for each weapon seperately (like if you had 2 Griffons and a Collosus, you would roll the Griffons as a Multiple Barrage, then work out the hits for the Collosus separately)

And in any case, you can always elect not to fire a specific model, so the next one would be the "closest model" in regards for firing.

And thinking even more about this, I think this might be a "GW BROKE THE RULES AGAIN" moment, as I cannot think of another unit that could have 2 different barrage weapons in the same unit at once (please correct me if I am wrong, it makes me all tingly inside).

Gwar! wrote:yes the Tank Commander is great. No Chance of giving up a KP like Chronos, and has bonuses when shooting at vehicles/Monstrous Creatures. Oh and BS 4. Heavy 20 BS 4 Tank anyone?

Pask and Punisher. Against the MC its amazing (odds alone means it kills a Demon Prince in one turn). Against vehicles...eh. You'd get his bonus but the nil AP means you take some steep penalties on the damage charts. Pask in a Exterminator...now THAT is a good (and cheaper) combo for both tank and MC hunting.

Aye, in an Exterminator its perfect for Light Vehicle Cracking. Heck if you are reeeeeeeeeeeeeealy desperate he can even take a a crack at AV 14.

But ofc it all comes down to what your gonna do with him.
MC Hunting? Go for a Punisher
Vehicle Sniping? Vanqusher FTW!
Fighting.... um, something that uses both tanks AND MC's (other than Chaos w/Prince I cannot think of anything)? Exterminator all the way baby!

Janthkin wrote:
Area of a circle = pi*radius^2.
Creed's leadership bubble: ~12 sq. ft.
Two "normal" officers: ~6 sq. ft.

If you get Creed to midfield, his bubble covers a non-trivial portion of the table, and reaches deep into enemy deployment zones (handy for suicidal Vets).

I haven't taken a position on how mandatory they are (or even how crucial the Orders system is), but let's make sure our comparisons are valid.

*edit: Hmm. I typed "pi*r^2." That "are" was typed as the letter. Anti-textspeak filter for the lose.

Fair points... but not really a huge impact.

'Look out sir, argh', Kell's Pfist and 'For the honor of Cadia!' are all things that I didn't directly list in my comparison. The forward reach of creed's bubble is increased. Taking a 50 point unit, turning it into a 225 point unit without adding any notable survivability, then moving it into the middle of the table seems more like an extremely situational moment. I just don't see a chimera with a 200+ point company command squad heading towards an ork horde, or even any shooty army that will then have side armor shots on his chimera.

The unit of vehicles scouting is fairly useful, but then I took another peek at the codex and found that kell's 'listen up maggots' does indeed only apply to orders. So we can drop the two regimental banners for my comparison. That nets me 30 more points to play with.

I'm with you Janth... I think he's cool, and good. I'm not battling against people taking him. I'm just trying to point out that he is FAR from Eldrad status...

The more I think about it the more I realise I was a bit quick off the mark with Creed. He's good, but not that good. You're better off with Vox Casters really.

The only thing going for creed really is he can cover a whopping 1,809.55737 Square Inches while 2 Regular CCS only cover 904.778684 Square Inches. And after all, Creed and Krell means orders are passed on 10 with a reroll, you you are all but guaranteed to make them.

So a tough choice I suppose.