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ubermosher wrote:

focusedfire wrote:
Problem is that we are going through a human dominated release period and its killing the game. You know GW messed up going for the most bang for the buck by releasing so many SM books in the last three years when you go into a store and there are six players there not playing because they all have SMs and are tired of playing each other. Its times like this that playing xenos scum can make you popular.

Emphasis mine.

I have to disagree. Here's the release order of the last four years (from Wikipedia):
Tyranids
Black Templars
Tau
Eldar
DA/BA
CSM
Orks
Daemons
SM

So, discounting the BA WD codex, over the last 4 years, you've had 3 Imperial codices out of 9 releases. If you count CSM's as human, then you've had 4 of 9. So, let's assume for a moment that the next army after IG are SW's. That means 5 of 11 codices released over a full five calendar years are Imperial. And twice during that period, 3 out of 4 codex releases were NOT Imperial.

So I empathize with you if the game scene in your area suffers because army popularity skews toward Imperial/Human. But I don't think that is because of the release schedule. And I certainly don't think it's a good reason NOT to redo the SW codex.

Cheers

I politely disagree. First I said past three years not four. Yes, I am counting CSM as human. Doesn't matter how many spikes, pusstules, or mutations you put on them, they're still human.

I am also counting the IG and the order things are being done does affect things.

Please indulge me and try to look at this way. A New BRB comes out and The first armies benefitting from it belong to the Imperium. Usually released at about the same time and developed in the same period so that the base Imperium forces(SM&IG) have a rulebook that capitalizes upon those new rules. With maybe one or two exceptions the xenos don't get covered untill halfway through the BRBs expected life cycle. This pattern means that Xenos players get less time with an optimized codex than the Imperium forces. Go ahead and expand back to 2003/2004 as they were getting ready to release 4thed and see who shows up again.


Now I have said my peace and unless there are any actual rumors, I'm outta here until there are some.


BTW, If any of you haven't seen them check out BobPanda's My Space Wolf Project http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/220519.page

Enjoy

@FF:

Um, so what?

Let's go backwards:
May 09 = IG
Oct 08 = SM
May 08 = Daemons!
Jan 08 = Orks!

In May last year, was it horrible that GW did to non-human release in a row?

No, the world didn't end, the SM players weren't up in arms, and GW didn't close its doors.

Same with IG following SM. It's cool, no biggie.

And if we look at 2007, it was:
Sep 07 CSM
Jul 07 BA
Mar 07 DA
An entire year of nothing but SM!

And that was after an entire year of Xenos (Eldar & Tau). ..

And yet, here we are.

No, I don't think it's a disaster.

These things go in cycles, so if you have a Xenos year, you get a non-Xenos year. Or after MEQs, you get non-MEQs. It'll all work out in the end.

Also, looking at Orks, they seem to have done quite well, despite being released at the very end of 4th Edition, but by your theory, they'd be all but unplayable.

Don't sweat it and enjoy the ride.

The Dreadnote wrote:A pound says they nerf the hell out of it.

And when they do a pound says all those SW players who are saying "I want to play pup cause I love the fluff" will all complain how they got the shaft and completly miss the fact they HAVE a new dex and can once again play the fluff they were craving....

Most of its about wanting the beard back... at which point my Raven Guard may take on a distinct grey tinge.....

Druidic wrote:And when they do a pound says all those SW players who are saying "I want to play pup cause I love the fluff" will all complain how they got the shaft and completly miss the fact they HAVE a new dex and can once again play the fluff they were craving....

Even people who play for fluff still play to win.

Not everyone.... but most I'll grant you!

Even I get bitten now and again, but I've been playing long enough to just enjoy the game, winning secondary.... or is that the englishman in me comming through.....

"Its not the winning that counts...... its by HOW MUCH YOU WIN!"

Druidic wrote:Not everyone...

No. Everyone plays to win. No one plays to lose, and no one plays to draw. Everyone plays to win. Doesn't have to be your main focus - I'm not saying that everyone just plays to win, but everyone does play to win. People who are very fluff-focused who get an ultra fluffy army that completely sucks will have every right to complain, because losing all the time isn't fun, and they will eventually tire of it.

Actually phycologically I'd argue with you on that one, I have played to draw, I've also played to loose, but I'll agree that's the oddity rather then the rule.

As an example I'm building a Salamanders army from the spare stuff I have, no idea what it will play like on the field, but my primary motivation is the sculpting and painting, so if it even hits the table, then it will be a bonus, if it wins any games I'd be amazed!

As a further example I've played the wife while she has attempted to get the SoB's to work and played for a loose, the longer her ladies stay alive the longer she gets to practice and learn.

I've defintly played for a draw when "demonstrating" a new game as well, much better to hook someone new into a game with a close and enjoyable game rather then just demonstrate how much better you are then the other guy.

Oddly enough I enjoy myself morewhen I don't try to win as when I do try to win... If I play to win and loose I get hacked off, If I play to win and win, my oponent gets hacked off, if we both play not worrying about winning but instead worrying about the fun and the game, we both enjoy ourselves... which I think is one of the key factors missing in "MinMax" competative play.... which is why I've never done a tournament (Well... outside of full contact with steel weapons, but thats another story)

Yes but you're going to try to win. You're not going to try to lose or draw. You may, due to the way the game is going, end up going for a draw because you can't win, but at no point are you going to state that your goal is to lose.

We play to win. It's what we do.

Did you even read what he said?

I agree with Druidic 100%

I have played games with the full intention of losing, because when I am trying to show the game to a new player, or a new-ish player, I want them to have as much fun as possible so they become just as addicted and nerdy as me.

I find these games to be the most fun, Its not as much thinking tactically as it is describing the fluff between rolls.

After they are dug-in to the hobby and dont need to be walked-through the game, then I will proceed to eradicate their army without mercy. But that gets old fast, and I usually end up setting up custom scenarios to make it interesting and challenging.

EDIT: wow, this is completely OT.

This thread got derailed from the very start

Demogerg wrote:I have played games with the full intention of losing, because when I am trying to show the game to a new player, or a new-ish player, I want them to have as much fun as possible so they become just as addicted and nerdy as me.

You're not playing to lose. Your actual goal or aim is to get them to:

"...have as much fun as possible so they become just as addicted and nerdy as me."

Losing is simply a means to an end.

But I'll leave it there as not to continue derailing the thread. My bad.

If Phil Kelly really writes the Codex, it means SWs will be somewhat codified (10-man GH packs, etc.), but get some really nasty stuff.

Brimstone made a comment on Warseer that SWs will likely lose the LR-Exterminator but be more than happy with all the other toys SW get. Take that for what it's worth.

The Dreadnote wrote:A pound says they nerf the hell out of it.

My first instinct was to agree...however with the codex creep we have been seeing, I wouldn't bet 1/2 pound on it.

GG

Hopefully the "Other Toys" are the other 'Russ Tanks!

A new wolf codex could offer many additional opportunitys outside of the existing vanilla marines to play and build fluff arround outside of Space Puppies.

I'm more interested every day.

Also, since SWs developed the Predator Annihilator, they're clearly not afraid to 'muck with' existing STCs (unlike say, Mars). Maybe it's additional Predator variants. Maybe it's GH on bikes, WG on bikes, everyone - on bikes!

Since SWs are so decidely non-codex, they can do anything. And it's easy to say they don't get some things, for example the Land Speeder Storm, because 'their forgeworlds don't produce X.'

You see if you go down that route, make them VERY un codex, keep the 13th legion in, add enough "disadvantages" too so they are equal to rather then better then Codex Smurfs and you could be onto an interesting proposition there....

sonofruss wrote:

The problem with this is space wolf scouts are full marines. Not like regular scouts wolf guard termies can have any weapon allowed to a terminator in any configuration you want not possible with the blue codex grey hunters can wipe the table with a regular tac squad and long fangs split fire cant do that with the blue codex ether. Like I said in my above post blood claws are not assault troopers they have ws and bs of 3 like scouts and they get 2 attacks when they charge plus 2 weapon combo. There are 15 blood claws possible in the squad can't do that in the blue codex.
You take 20 terminators one squad of shooty one squad of fighty against my wolf guard and you wont last 2 turns.
My wolf guard under the current codex 8 assault cannons 6 lightning claws 6 stormbolters powerfist. And then add the two wolf lords that they are guarding feel the pain.
There is no other way to replicate the way this army works with another codex

Umm that is just the old codex. I thought you wanted Space Wolves, not just a replication of the current codex. A list should reflect what the force would look like in the field. Space marine scouts used to be marine stats, now they are BS/WS 3. Big deal. So you cant take 15 in one squad. Hos is that definitive Space Wolves? In the fiction do they run around in 15 man squads constantly? No. In the fiction they are just fighty viking SMs. The current SM codex represents them just fine, albeit not perfectly (but it doesn't reflect UMs perfectly or RG, or Salamanders, etc. either...). I think you are getting hung up on replicating the 3rd ed codex (which, my guess is the 5th ed one will *not* mirror anymore than the 5th C:SM mirrored the 3rd or 4th) rather than looking at the bigger picture of what SWs are conceptually- fighty SMs with a Viking theme.

But don't worry- need it or not SWs are getting their book. I hope it is on the level of C: DA so we can see who really likes their SWs and who just wants to powergame

dietrich wrote:Also, since SWs developed the Predator Annihilator, they're clearly not afraid to 'muck with' existing STCs (unlike say, Mars). Maybe it's additional Predator variants. Maybe it's GH on bikes, WG on bikes, everyone - on bikes!

Since SWs are so decidely non-codex, they can do anything. And it's easy to say they don't get some things, for example the Land Speeder Storm, because 'their forgeworlds don't produce X.'

Druidic wrote:You see if you go down that route, make them VERY un codex, keep the 13th legion in, add enough "disadvantages" too so they are equal to rather then better then Codex Smurfs and you could be onto an interesting proposition there....

I think this gets to the core issue with SW, how to make them different from vanilla SM, but keeping vanilla's competative. I would think they would get 1 or 2 army wide rules like FC and their guys get 2 base attacks (BP & CC) while their melee, get 3 (2 base, then BP & CC). Or some assult after vehicle move/drop pod. These could easily be represented by being slightly more costly than vanilla SM. I would rather see that then say getting all the LRBT from guard (perhaps 1 or 2 that are in the SW dex with limited upgrades or something).

My resoning is that if they are too good, then all the vanilla players will swap dex's and we'll all be playing against green robed SW, or dark blue SW, red SW....

Except space wolves aren't better than vanilla marines. They shouldn't cost more. They don't have better training, they don't have better equipment, their geneseed isn't better.


They are not better and don't deserve a random stat boost, even if they had it before.

Space Wolves have different training and combat tactics. I doubt they get Combat Squads or Combat Tactics. They probably keep Countercharge. I don't know that they'd give the whole army Stubborn, but it's possible. Personally, I don't want them to get too many 'extras', or they'll end up 20 points each. I'd rather 'lose' a few things and keep GHs in the 15-16 point range.

The difference between SWs and SMs are there, but relatively minor, and a lot less than the differences between SMs and say - Genestealer Cults. I'd rather see 'other' armies lauchned than 'more marinez! hurr!', but I play SWs and I'm looking forward to the new codex. In fact, I'm salivating like Pavlov's dogs.

dietrich wrote:Also, since SWs developed the Predator Annihilator, they're clearly not afraid to 'muck with' existing STCs (unlike say, Mars). Maybe it's additional Predator variants.

^^^.. what in interesting concept indeed. I would suggest that, broadly speaking, you might well be onto something here.From a few bits and bobs I've heard around the place.

Since SWs are so decidely non-codex, they can do anything. And it's easy to say they don't get some things, for example the Land Speeder Storm, because 'their forgeworlds don't produce X.'

Or they don't trust certain technologies or ideas. Good thinking again.

They had a whole plethora of special characters back in 2nd edition right ? Weren't they amongst the first ( the first ?) to have non IC special characters but upgrade ones for units like we see with Telion etc these days ?

I think they were all ICs, but I'd have to the check the second edition codex.

I keep hoping they'll redo Ranulf, the Wolf Guard who once pushed a wrecked Land Raider into a lava flow. By himself. He was supposedly as big (or maybe even bigger) than Russ. I think he was Strength 7.

That's the one I was thinking off, I thought he was just an upgrade character for ... for.... some type of unit .

Was he the one who then held off the orks to let the others escaped and the orks were so impressed their left his body on a bier or similar ?

Yes, Ranulf
here is the entry in the 2nd ed codex
"Ranulf is said to be the largest warrior of all the space wolves, larger in girth and mightier of arm than even Leman Russ....Once, when his squad was trapped by a river of lava Ranulf pushed the wreckage of a Land Raider into the molten stream so that his pack could cross...

The story of Ranulf's death is told at great length in his saga. The Space Wolves were retreating over a narrow mountain pass following a rare defeat at the hands of the Orks. Whent he Orks caught up with the end of the Space Wolves' column, Ranulf and a handful of Wolf Guard made a gallant stand against the entire Ork army in a narrow gap in the pass. While the few warriors held back thousands of Orks, the remaining Space Wolves made it back to safety. Although they greatly outnumbered the defenders, the Orks were unable to bring more than a handful of troops into combat at any one time due to the narrowness and shape of the defile. Before many hours were past there was a pile of Ork bodies as high as a wall. But even the giant Spacw Wolves warrior could not hold out forever. One by one his Wolf Guard fell, untill only Ranulf was left. Though the Orks overcame him in the end, even those creatures could not bring themselves to desecrate his body. Whent he Space Wolves recovered the pass they found Ranulf and his dead companions seated in a hastily constructed shrine surrounded by an immense pile of Ork wargear. To the Space Wolves Ranulf was a great Champion - but to his enemies he has become nothing less than a god."

Hmm... I wonder if Ranulf went to battle wearing nothing more than a Speedo behind his storm shield...

He was just that manly.

Ok, for all those people who are saying "SW are no more different to Marines than WS/RG/Sallies et al..."

Point me to the units you use that are not found in the normal Codex Space Marines.

Oh wait...You can't. Your armies are basically SM armies with a theme. UM's are vanilla flavoured, Scars are Bike flavoured, Sallies are Melta and flamer flavoured... etc. There is nothing beyond this to fundementally distinguish them them from Ultramarines than the paint job and army composistion. Thus no new book is needed, and even without using He'Stan or Khan it is perfectly easy to do.

Now, the Wolves have always been massively different. We have never used anything C:SM, beyond the vehicles and some wargear, because GW were too lazy to do it properly back in 2000. This, more than anything else is why we need a new Codex. You can bleat all you like about a PDF, but to actually fix it you need a complete rewrite. Half our rules are a mess, the armoury needs a complete overhaul... by which point you've put so much effort in you might as well make it a full release and make money back off it.

Furthermore, they can roll some extra C:SM stuff in off the back of it, thus further bolstering the argument in favour financially. So, we have a desperately old codex, an opportunity to have fun with one of the more interesting chapters and to make a quick buck. Wolves are very different to C:SM's, and frankly we'd be better off using C:CSM with some icons of Khorne (Canis Helix) and some Less Fenrisian Wolves and maybe the odd Possessed-by-the-wulfen pack. But then you people would moan we we're being fluffy, wouldn't you?

Oh, and finally I think the argument that SW don't deserve anything because they are Imperial is pretty pathetic. We know DE are being done properly, and Nid's are probably on the Cards for a Q4 release... so you'll have your Xenos soon enough. Nid's get three updates in almost as much time as Wolves get one. But hey, they're Xenos. So it's fine.

And lets not mention the Tau.... a Whole new race that got TWO codex's before guys like Dark Eldar and Space Wolves

Vassakov wrote:Ok, for all those people who are saying "SW are no more different to Marines than WS/RG/Sallies et al..."

Now, the Wolves have always been massively different.

Huh?

As far as I'm concerned, Long Fangs == Devastators, Grey Hunters == Tacticals BC == Assault Marines, and Wolf Guard == Veterans. Yes, SW have a minor twist on each of them, but when you're coming from a Xenos or non-SM viewpoint, that difference is awfully trivial. It's not "massive". Heck, it's not even as much as Chaos, Necrons or Sisters..

Yes, SW are different from SM.

By a *tiny* little bit.

But they aren't "massively" different like Nids or Orks or Eldar or Guard.