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warboss wrote:that can't be said of the xenos that are in need of updating. DE? yeah, a dark lance could be a brightlance and warriors could be guardians. raiders /= falcons. talos /= wraithlord. etc. they don't have the easy subsitutions that make them playable as a current edition army. same thing with necrons and tau.

Why do people keep saying this?

Yes the DE codex is old but unlike the SW book it was a done-in-one with all the rules in one place. I've played against them and they are still competetive.

Sure people might WANT a new book but it's not like L&D or come of the Chaos Legions where you literally CANNOT use the army you bought.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

warboss wrote:that can't be said of the xenos that are in need of updating. DE? yeah, a dark lance could be a brightlance and warriors could be guardians. raiders /= falcons. talos /= wraithlord. etc. they don't have the easy subsitutions that make them playable as a current edition army. same thing with necrons and tau.

Why do people keep saying this?

Yes the DE codex is old but unlike the SW book it was a done-in-one with all the rules in one place. I've played against them and they are still competetive.

Sure people might WANT a new book but it's not like L&D or come of the Chaos Legions where you literally CANNOT use the army you bought.

agreed. my point is that all is not as bad as space wolf fanboys make it seem. they have a codex that they can easily use that is specifically designed for this edition. as for L&D and chaos, they're still playable but just without 50-75% of the flavor/cheese that made the armies fun/effective to play. chaos legions can be played as is AFAIK. just because someone cheesed out a iron warrior army with 4 heavies doesn't mean they can't simply choose three of them to field (other than the basilisk). as long as the vast majority of the figs are playable they're not abandoned. i've played/collected niche armies in the past (thinking about my armored compay long gone and looking at my speed freek army post on sale here on dakka and ebay!) and have paid the price when the rules changed and the flavor/feel/effectiveness of the army became something i didn't like. the only army GW has truly dumped were the squats (although the L&D come close). they (L&D) theoretically use the new guard rules combined with some select daemonhunter/witchhunter allies. still doable but definitely a stretch there.

Be careful going down that path warboss. Next thing you know, you'll be saying that all space marines are space marines and don't really need separate codexes because they use different colors and decoration bits! And we all know blue space marines and grey space marines and red space marines and green space marines and black space marines are HUGELY different!

They are. See, I collect space wolves because they are not ultramarines. The reasons they are different from ultras and black templares are

I think most of the anger comes from the fact that the space wolves aren't even a major race. They are a sub race of the marines. Biel tan doesn't get its own book. The blood angels got half of one. I don't see any speed freaks around any more. When GW was making a concerted effort to roll up secondary offshoot armies into the big books (salamanders, catachans, goffs, raven guard, etc) they all of a sudden decide to devote full time and energy to an army that has a miniscule following compared to several of the major races that need a total overhaul to function in fifth. A miniscule race that by all rights should have gotten the same treatment as the others given GWs "streamlining" plan.

Space wolves probably have a fraction the playerbase the Tyranids do. Same with the Tau. Even the Necrons have them beat pretty soundly. The only "major" race they compete with is the dark eldar, and thats because they are functionally broken with god awful models that can't be purchased (much the same as the space wolves).

It's not that they didn't need a new book. Just not a full development cycle for what amounts to the case of the "only marine subchapter that escaped."

To be fair, SW had a MUCH larger player base than Tyranids back in the day. Tyranids were a small, niche army until the 4th edition codex. Meanwhile, SW were highly popular in 2nd edition and still a popular army during 3rd.

That's probably changed now, but the reasons for that are fairly obvious. This is coming from a longtime Tyranid player with no real interest in SW, BTW.

Actually< the SW are coming back and they will start the cycle of balance by becoming a renegade/chaos chapter.

Seriously, they need to do this:

Make the Dark angels just another Codex chapter.

Make Black Templars a part of the upcoming Forces of the Imperium Codex. Just put all of the inquisition in one place.

Then they need to introduce an adeptus mechanicus SM Chapter that can play Frankenstein to the BA vampires and the SW werewolves.


This would leave room in the devlopement cycle for:

A LatD/Forces of Chaos combined Book

A New Race(Dwarves)

A faster update cyle

While you may be right that players that currently play Space Wolves may be a fraction of the Nids playerbase, I would say:

a) There used to be a much larger base of Space Wolf players. They've had a separate list since 2nd Ed. and have long been an extremely popular marine army; and

b) There are a lot of players who have Space Wolf armies on shelves collecting dust and waiting to play them again.

Just because you don't see the Space Wolf armies out there doesn't mean they're not there.

*Edit: Dammit. Ninja'd by gorgon.

warboss wrote:

agreed. my point is that all is not as bad as space wolf fanboys make it seem. they have a codex that they can easily use that is specifically designed for this edition. as for L&D and chaos, they're still playable but just without 50-75% of the flavor/cheese that made the armies fun/effective to play.

You don't understand that it is all about the fluff/flavor of the army. If I wanted to play Space Marines, I would play Space Marines. I am a Space Wolf player, and I want to play Space Wolves.

Death By Monkeys wrote:
a) There used to be a much larger base of Space Wolf players. They've had a separate list since 2nd Ed. and have long been an extremely popular marine army; and

b) There are a lot of players who have Space Wolf armies on shelves collecting dust and waiting to play them again.

Just because you don't see the Space Wolf armies out there doesn't mean they're not there.
.

In the past I've been reliably informed that around 2nd edition era the Space pups were amongst the if not the actual top selling line of the 40K range.

I think the nids really took off, no surprise really, with the release of the plastic gaunts, which went alongside the plastic (revised) warriors and genestealers. Marines aside they were amongst the first of the races it was possible to build a list that covered the whole spectrum from fluffy to nasty at a reasonable $/£/shiny objects cost .

Add to that the plethora of players who had ASC warriors, stealers from Hulk etc and they quickly became an easy 2nd army for hoary old ...err.... I mean experienced and wise generals, to build quickly for not much initial outlay.

I'd say that in 3rd edition as well the fact they were one of Andy Chamber's favourite armies didn't hurt much either.

Took a big boost in the much more dark setting of the 3rd and subsequent editions too.

The much less garish colour schemes-- damny you 2nd edition ! -- helped too I think.

Blackmoor wrote:

warboss wrote:

agreed. my point is that all is not as bad as space wolf fanboys make it seem. they have a codex that they can easily use that is specifically designed for this edition. as for L&D and chaos, they're still playable but just without 50-75% of the flavor/cheese that made the armies fun/effective to play.

You don't understand that it is all about the fluff/flavor of the army. If I wanted to play Space Marines, I would play Space Marines. I am a Space Wolf player, and I want to play Space Wolves.

Amen, preach on Brother!

To all the complainers about the puppies getting a new codex, just look at it like this. After this Dec, you will not see another SW codex for another 8 years (if history is any indication). So you will have lots of time for all the Xenos armies to get done.

Personally waiting for a Tau redo, but smiling at the possibilities of SW. They are the only marine chapter I will ever consider playing.

Blackmoor wrote:

warboss wrote:

agreed. my point is that all is not as bad as space wolf fanboys make it seem. they have a codex that they can easily use that is specifically designed for this edition. as for L&D and chaos, they're still playable but just without 50-75% of the flavor/cheese that made the armies fun/effective to play.

You don't understand that it is all about the fluff/flavor of the army. If I wanted to play Space Marines, I would play Space Marines. I am a Space Wolf player, and I want to play Space Wolves.

So each space marine "flavor" needs its own full-blown codex for this? They each need their own pages and pages of fluff that, in some cases, even outnumbers those of entire galactic species? I've seen the current SW codex. There's nothing in there that couldn't be done in a couple of WD articles just like the BA.

reds8n wrote: In the past I've been reliably informed that around 2nd edition era the Space pups were amongst the if not the actual top selling line of the 40K range.

I'll buy that. I'd have to check my old 2nd ed.-era GT results, but I'm almost positive that SW players tended to outnumber all other SM players put together (at GTs at least). And they probably outnumbered Tyranids 4 to 1 or more.

I think the nids really took off, no surprise really, with the release of the plastic gaunts, which went alongside the plastic (revised) warriors and genestealers. Marines aside they were amongst the first of the races it was possible to build a list that covered the whole spectrum from fluffy to nasty at a reasonable $/£/shiny objects cost .

Add to that the plethora of players who had ASC warriors, stealers from Hulk etc and they quickly became an easy 2nd army for hoary old ...err.... I mean experienced and wise generals, to build quickly for not much initial outlay.

They did, although I think that the real boom was with 4th edition and Nidzilla. Nidzilla made Tyranids easier to play, easier to collect and paint, and was a beast on the tabletop.

The much less garish colour schemes-- damny you 2nd edition ! -- helped too I think.

LOL. That too. Even if you put the studio 'Eavy Metal team-painted army on the tabletop, it'd receive a horrible reaction now. There's no getting past the bright blues and purples mixed into a sea of red-orange.

stonefox wrote:
So each space marine "flavor" needs its own full-blown codex for this? They each need their own pages and pages of fluff that, in some cases, even outnumbers those of entire galactic species? I've seen the current SW codex. There's nothing in there that couldn't be done in a couple of WD articles just like the BA.

You obviously haven't read the space wolves codex that closely. Besides part of the rumors makes them even more of a deviation from the
Codex Astartes.

Their stats aren't exactly the same. Where their units are on the FOC isn't the same. The general abilities that different squad special rules represent aren't the same. Alot of their basic units are distinctive from their counterparts in Codex: Space Marines.

The only real similarity is that they wear power armor.
They have some of the same vehicles but some that are unique.

BA and DA are far more closer. The differences between these two and the Space Marines codex could each fit on a single page for the army and a couple for special characters. SW would struggle to be summarized in a similar way as a WD article. BA and DA could easily be incorporated into the main Marine codex, but SW really can't.

stonefox wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:

warboss wrote:

agreed. my point is that all is not as bad as space wolf fanboys make it seem. they have a codex that they can easily use that is specifically designed for this edition. as for L&D and chaos, they're still playable but just without 50-75% of the flavor/cheese that made the armies fun/effective to play.

You don't understand that it is all about the fluff/flavor of the army. If I wanted to play Space Marines, I would play Space Marines. I am a Space Wolf player, and I want to play Space Wolves.

So each space marine "flavor" needs its own full-blown codex for this? They each need their own pages and pages of fluff that, in some cases, even outnumbers those of entire galactic species? I've seen the current SW codex. There's nothing in there that couldn't be done in a couple of WD articles just like the BA.

QFT

GW just needs to realease on Chapter Astartes codex, that lists the BA,DA,SW,BT and maybe some new ones. Each chapter can have a little fluff and their own special rules even. then just have one giant wargear section that brings stuff up to speed with 5th ed.

I have been a SM player since I started way back when, and would much rather see updates to the major races codecii, then multiple SM codecii!

Codices!!!!

Index? Indices. Codex, Codices.

Cortex? Cortices. Vertex? Vertices. Vortex? Vortices....

I lose my mind.

Blackmoor wrote:

warboss wrote:

agreed. my point is that all is not as bad as space wolf fanboys make it seem. they have a codex that they can easily use that is specifically designed for this edition. as for L&D and chaos, they're still playable but just without 50-75% of the flavor/cheese that made the armies fun/effective to play.

You don't understand that it is all about the fluff/flavor of the army. If I wanted to play Space Marines, I would play Space Marines. I am a Space Wolf player, and I want to play Space Wolves.

lol, you say you want fluff/flavor but what you're actually asking for is crunch/rules. the two are not the same. my point was that SW players can play an effective 5th edition force with simply the space marine codex. i'm not saying don't come out with a SW codex (heck, i'm hoping my blood angels will get the same treatment but i'm not holding my breath), i'm simply saying that a subset of space marines (SW) who in turn are a subset of the imperium shouldn't get a codex before other entire races when they have a viable alternative they can use.

<armchair miniatures businessman>

frankly, i'm not a fan of a 5th edition codex for a single chapter. i'd prefer if GW came out with craftworld eldar/armageddon/eye of terror type books that gave 4-5 armies a unique list. for instance, a "Codex: First Founding" book with the changes and characters needed for the space wolves, imperial fists, blood angels, and salamanders (not DA since they have a relatively current book although i wouldn't be opposed to including them). another could be a chaos legion book for the original chaos marines. if the book's page count was similar to the 5th ed SM book, that's still enough room for crunch and fluff for a few chapters. plus, it would sell minis a heck of alot faster as several line subsets would get a boost.

</armchair miniatures businessman>


@scotty:

good example. i might actually remember that.

armies flow into popularity with the strength and customizability of the current codex.

did you know necrons were around in 2nd edition?

they had like 3 or 4 different models, and the army sucked, so no one played them.

what would you say the most popular armies are right now... aside from codex marines i would venture to guess orks.

they have a strong codex with lots of good options.

what do space wolves have right now? (in terms of army design)
rhino/razorback/land raider mech---- been there done that.
drop pods---- cant assault out of a pod. this makes good use of counter-attack and the ability to take lots of plasma.
footsloggers---- not very competitive, power armor can only do so much
Wolf guard deathstar---- too many points for 1 or 2 killy units that only have 1 would each.

there has been no reason to START a space wolf army for years, no new models that werent just space marine models with a sprue of wolf bits.

when the new codex comes out, and the new models are released im sure you will see a large influx of wolfy players. not to mention of a Ton of returning armies.

The cat is already out of the bag. By previously giving the variant chapters their own Codexes, er, Codeci, er... their own book, them seem to have this mindset that they can't put the cat back in the bag. But, CSM were just 'appendix lists' apparently, and they're cool dropping those.

Personally, I'm glad the CSM Legion rules disappeared. And I'd be happy if the loyalists were reduced to one or two books.

Codex Astares
Take the 5th edition SM codex, and add:
Command Squads can have jump packs
HQ Lemartes, who comes with Death Company
HQ Tycho
HQ Dante
HQ Mephisto
HQ Belail, which lets Terminators be taken as troops
HQ Azrael
HQ the DA librarian

You don't even need Master of the Ravenwing, since the generic captain lets bikes be troops.

Then, do a Codex: Non-Codex Marines that would cover BT and SW. They're pretty similar, both being more close-quarter and hand-to-hand SM armies, that rely on getting numbers across the board more than getting a few units quickly across the board.

To you people who want all the other races fixed before another space marine codex comes out. I am a space wolf player I love the fluff and the versatility of the wolves and the pic of my avatar is my skin. There has been loads of xenos since the last SW codex came out. Why don't you wait 2 editions of the game to go buy before you get another one? The tau got two necrons got two eldar got one orks got one the de are in the pipe supposedly give it a rest. The tau shouldn't get one till volume VII if the wolves are any indication of how things are going. I play chaos deamons, chaos space marines, guard, and 3 codex marine chapter's. Your codexes will come out when gw want them to come out so quit wining about this, most of us are adults grow up and get a grip.

Demogerg wrote:
when the new codex comes out, and the new models are released im sure you will see a large influx of wolfy players. not to mention of a Ton of returning armies.

QFT

Untill the new Codex comes out, my 6k+ Wolves are patiently sitting in a box on my shelf waiting, waiting.

Also the new marine Codex wouldn't make a good Wolf army, much too different.

when gw want them to come out so quit wining about this, most of us are adults grow up and get a grip.

most of you "adults" have been playing space wolves since back when they were a relevant chapter that for some reason was a flagship army. The squats are gone, harlequins got folded in with the eldar.

The space wolves should have been folded in with the rest of the non codex chapters. Not gotten their own full book. Maybe a shortdex or a series of white dwarf articles, but not a full on hundred page deal. They aren't big enough, important enough, or special enough. So what if they were the first codex? They're just another chapter of marines, just another 1000 dudes.

This thread is stagnating. What we really need is a flame war!

ShumaGorath wrote:

when gw want them to come out so quit wining about this, most of us are adults grow up and get a grip.

most of you "adults" have been playing space wolves since back when they were a relevant chapter that for some reason was a flagship army. The squats are gone, harlequins got folded in with the eldar.

The space wolves should have been folded in with the rest of the non codex chapters. Not gotten their own full book. Maybe a shortdex or a series of white dwarf articles, but not a full on hundred page deal. They aren't big enough, important enough, or special enough. So what if they were the first codex? They're just another chapter of marines, just another 1000 dudes.

Thanks Shummy!

ShumaGorath wrote:
The space wolves should have been folded in with the rest of the non codex chapters. Not gotten their own full book. Maybe a shortdex or a series of white dwarf articles, but not a full on hundred page deal. They aren't big enough, important enough, or special enough. So what if they were the first codex? They're just another chapter of marines, just another 1000 dudes.

they do not follow the Codex Astartes, they may be much more than 1000 dudes. please read http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/236094.page#667532 Gwar and i are having a discussion right now about space wolf chapter size.
also, they have lost companies, who do not conform to the 12 Great companies of the standard space wolf chapter, and are considered separate from the space wolves, but are not heretics. not to mention the 13th company.

the heirarchy of the space wolves is completely different from normal space marines.

i dont want this thread to be reduced to personal attacks, but saying things like army "X" is not special/imporant or anything along those lines is just BEGGING for a fight.

sonofruss wrote: Your codexes will come out when gw want them to come out so quit wining about this, most of us are adults grow up and get a grip.

there's always one in every nice discussion.

The rest of the non-codex chapters were NOT folded in for 5th.

The army is unique, distinct, and has a strong following and hobby footprint. You can whine and tell me to buy TWO books for my list (and pretend that makes sense), or you can tell me to proxy a list from SM (something I could easily do...as could DE or Orks or [insert army here]). Fair enough...I hope your army gets cancelled and you get herpes. This is a business...SW will sell. And sell well. GW designers like the army concept, as do BL writers, and they clearly draw hobbyists' interest.

dashrendar wrote:
GW just needs to realease on Chapter Astartes codex, that lists the BA,DA,SW,BT and maybe some new ones. Each chapter can have a little fluff and their own special rules even. then just have one giant wargear section that brings stuff up to speed with 5th ed.

I have been a SM player since I started way back when, and would much rather see updates to the major races codecii, then multiple SM codecii!

I agree with this aproach whole heartedly. It worked for Eldar with Craftworld Eldar, it would work just as well for "Astartes Space Marines". Shoot I would like to see some love given to my Raven Guard.


GG

warboss wrote:

lol, you say you want fluff/flavor but what you're actually asking for is crunch/rules. the two are not the same. my point was that SW players can play an effective 5th edition force with simply the space marine codex. i'm not saying don't come out with a SW codex (heck, i'm hoping my blood angels will get the same treatment but i'm not holding my breath), i'm simply saying that a subset of space marines (SW) who in turn are a subset of the imperium shouldn't get a codex before other entire races when they have a viable alternative they can use.

Xenos races can use the Space Marine book just as well as Space Wolves can. Counts as goes both ways. I mean, didn't you read Malfred's how-to post a couple weeks ago? People play Space Wolves because they don't want to play Codex Marines. A viable race should not have to use a viable alternative. Dark Eldar are the only ones that deserve a redo before Space Wolves, but that is not what the powers that be decided, so it ends up in my favor this time. I feel for DE players. Do my Necrons need a reboot? Definitely, but their book is much newer than the dogs'. Tyranids? Boo freaking hoo, they had their party with Nidzilla for quite a while. Why should Space Wolf players wait 15 years (maybe a couple less) for a book of their own? Because that is how long it will take to go through all the other races that you feel are more deserving before it becomes their turn.

generalgrog wrote:I agree with this aproach whole heartedly. It worked for Eldar with Craftworld Eldar, it would work just as well for "Astartes Space Marines". Shoot I would like to see some love given to my Raven Guard.

GG

It doesn't work. You end up with 5 lists, which has 2 that are utter junk, 2 that are okay, and one that is obviously superior to anything else. And at the end of the day, they're really not that different, and it's usually a matter of emphasizing Unit X by making it a little better. Honestly, I'm quite fine with losing the Craftworlds and just saying, "if you want Altaioc, play with a lot of rangers. If you want Iyanden, play with a lot of Wraithguard and Wraithlords", provided that rangers and wraithguard are competitive. A lot of the 'variant' army lists tried to make fluff Unit X worth fielding, because in the main codex, it was sub-optimal. Just get the point costs and rules balanced, and people will field it.

I play SWs, and I'm anxiously awaiting the new codex and new minis. They have a big following, and I bet that Adepticon 2010 is the 'year of Russ'. But, the differences between SWs and SMs are a lot less than the differences between SMs and Tau. Or Lost and the Damned. Or Dark Eldar.

GW is a business, they need to make money. SWs will make them money. Partially because they don't have to do a whole new figure line, it'll be an accessory sprue, and some blisters and maybe a box for a new Bjorn (one can hope). But, partially, because it's a fairly popular army.

But, I would rather see GW put their efforts and resources into making 'different' armies. Lost and the Damned, Ad-Mech, a new Grey Knight codex, etc. Armies that, by their nature, play significantly different. SWs play different than SMs, but not 'lots' different. Not the way that Lost and the Damned are different - a cheap, T3, no save to 5+ (at best), horde army with some big gribblies and some little gribblies and maybe some looted tanks.