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JohnHwangDD wrote:

Vassakov wrote:Ok, for all those people who are saying "SW are no more different to Marines than WS/RG/Sallies et al..."

Now, the Wolves have always been massively different.

Huh?

As far as I'm concerned, Long Fangs == Devastators, Grey Hunters == Tacticals BC == Assault Marines, and Wolf Guard == Veterans. Yes, SW have a minor twist on each of them, but when you're coming from a Xenos or non-SM viewpoint, that difference is awfully trivial. It's not "massive". Heck, it's not even as much as Chaos, Necrons or Sisters..

Yes, SW are different from SM.

By a *tiny* little bit.

But they aren't "massively" different like Nids or Orks or Eldar or Guard.

yes and so what? In the same time Space Wolves have had Half a Codex, Guard have had 3 Codex, Orks have had 2 and Eldar have had 2. Nids also have had 2, with a 3rd slated for Q4 or Q1 2010. Thats a total of 9 (10) "Massively" different codex's while Space Wolves have had a poor excuse for a codex. So don't whine about "omg too many Imperials" because Space Wolves are long overdue for an update.

And your Statement that Tactical Squads are in any way, shape or form like Grey Hunter Squads as to their role, both rulewise and Fluff wise, just shows you shouldnt be talking in a Space Wolf thread. Period.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Hmm... I wonder if Ranulf went to battle wearing nothing more than a Speedo behind his storm shield...

Stop wishlisting!

Gwar! wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Yes, SW are different from SM.

By a *tiny* little bit.

But they aren't "massively" different like Nids or Orks or Eldar or Guard.

yes and so what?

In the same time Space Wolves have had Half a Codex, Guard have had 3 Codex, Orks have had 2 and Eldar have had 2. Nids also have had 2, with a 3rd slated for Q4 or Q1 2010. Thats a total of 9 (10) "Massively" different codex's while Space Wolves have had a poor excuse for a codex. So don't whine about "omg too many Imperials" because Space Wolves are long overdue for an update.

And your Statement that Tactical Squads are in any way, shape or form like Grey Hunter Squads as to their role, both rulewise and Fluff wise, just shows you shouldnt be talking in a Space Wolf thread. Period.

So what? So please don't start claiming that your SW are somehow "massively" different when they're actually *trivially* different.

Nowhere did I ever whine "OMG, too many Imperials". Second, SW are only "overdue for an update" if they have the sales to support it. If not, then it's equally fair to say that they're overdue for cancellation.

As far as I'm concerned, GH die exactly the same as any other Marine. They still play a Tactical role, as compared to long-ranged firepower (LF / Dev) or close-in assault (BC / AM). Whether there is a minor, trivial rules tweak, is of no great importance. They have the same T4 and Sv3+, and they go down exactly the same.

Now I'm not against the SW getting a Codex, but it'd be nice for you guys to acknowledge reality that your special dudes really aren't so different from regular SM when you look at the 40k overall. And quite frankly, the design space that SW occupy (fighty MEQ) overlaps pretty heavily with BA, BT, and CSM.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
And quite frankly, the design space that SW occupy (fighty MEQ) overlaps pretty heavily with BA, BT, and CSM.

All of those pale in comparison to the original "fighty MEQ" the Space Wolves.

How can you compare GH to tactical marines? No other tactical squad can have 3 Power weapons/fists except GH.

Space Wolves bridge the gap between the Codex marine and the Chaos marine.

BDJV wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
And quite frankly, the design space that SW occupy (fighty MEQ) overlaps pretty heavily with BA, BT, and CSM.

All of those pale in comparison to the original "fighty MEQ" the Space Wolves.

How can you compare GH to tactical marines? No other tactical squad can have 3 Power weapons/fists except GH.

Space Wolves bridge the gap between the Codex marine and the Chaos marine.

The sad thing is Counts as Chaos is what a lot of Space Wolf players have been driven to play, as even the Bland Blandness of Blandom that is the Chaos Codex does a better job at Representing Space Wolves than the Actual SW codex.

Sad, ain' it?

reds8n wrote:
They had a whole plethora of special characters back in 2nd edition right ? Weren't they amongst the first ( the first ?) to have non IC special characters but upgrade ones for units like we see with Telion etc these days ?

I've been saying in this thread that the new codex is an opportunity for a new direction, so I was wondering what that could actually mean... and I was just thinking that with the semi-distinct flavor of Wolf Guard (being able to fill various roles such as Vet Sergeant, elite warrior (read: terminators), or even IC's in the form of Battle Leaders), one thing the codex could do is provide a large range of Wolf Guard upgrade characters that can lead squads and convey special options, deployments, USR's, etc. And being Wolf Guard, instead of epic HQ's, the scope of their rules (and point costs) could be reduced, such as only giving 1 USR or simply giving the squad the option of taking a Heavy Flamer, so as to not upset game balance.

As an avid SW player, I'd love to have an army full of glory-seeking characters that fit the SW theme and could impact the style and play of the army while at the same time doesn't promote full-on Herohammer.

GH =/= Tactical squad

tact squads are made to fill many roles decently, and the only role they fill especially well is standing on an objective and Shooting with their heavy weapon, bolters, and special weapon.

GHs are made to go into CC. they have counter charge, bolt pistol and close combat weapon, the ability to take multiple plas pistols and power weapons, but no heavy weapons. not to mention true grit IF you decide to UPGRADE to get bolters.

im sorry if a unit that fills a shooty role vs a unit that fills a CC role is not a big enough difference for you.


and I will repeat this one more time. The reason SW sales have been down is because they have an ancient, long outdated, and pigeon-holed codex that only allows for a couple of good army builds. they have not had any new models save for a couple of "limited edition" or similar single blister pack models.

At this point, I am so upset with the anti-Space Wolf stigma oozing from this thread, I hope GW makes this a stupidly unbalanced codex with a large release of excellent models, and that *YOUR* gaming store becomes flooded with Space Wolf players who you "just cant win" against.


/Thread

JohnHwangDD wrote:Yes, SW are different from SM.

By a *tiny* little bit.

But they aren't "massively" different like Nids or Orks or Eldar or Guard.

Complete and utter lie John.

The Wolf style of fighting, like the Templar, Ravenwing and Deathwing styles of fighting, are almost completely alien to Codex Marines. Their similarities lie in the fact that they're still Marines (obviously) and they use the same tanks, and have the same Imperial Weapons (like all other Imperial armies). They are as different to Codex Marines as Grey Knights are actually - they're not, for instance, like Blood Angels or Dark Angels, where they're Codex save for a couple of extra units.

But I wont loose against an "Uber" SW dex, cause I'll just counts as my Raven Guard.... and I think thats one of the arguments against an UBER SW dex, it will just get played by everyone instead of the Marines Dex.

If you make SW more like marines SHOULD be guess what, everyone becomes SW

If they get it right it will be of a similar competative level which GW as so good at doing.... right?

Druidic wrote:But I wont loose against an "Uber" SW dex, cause I'll just counts as my Raven Guard.... and I think thats one of the arguments against an UBER SW dex, it will just get played by everyone instead of the Marines Dex.

If you make SW more like marines SHOULD be guess what, everyone becomes SW

If they get it right it will be of a similar competative level which GW as so good at doing.... right?

If the SW have the next Nob-Biker unit, then it's possible you'll see Counts-as codex SM using the SW rules... which would probably have DA players laughing/crying at the irony... but to be honest I don't really see that happening. I play both SW's and Imperial Fists and my lists are quite distinct, and I can't imagine ever playing my Fists with the current SW rules, much less with, fingers-crossed, revised more thematic SW rules. The play styles are very different... to me anyway.

Actually, I suspect you'll see more CSM lists as Counts-As armies using the new SW codex. /

The Wolf style of fighting, like the Templar, Ravenwing and Deathwing styles of fighting, are almost completely alien to Codex Marines. Their similarities lie in the fact that they're still Marines (obviously) and they use the same tanks, and have the same Imperial Weapons (like all other Imperial armies). They are as different to Codex Marines as Grey Knights are actually - they're not, for instance, like Blood Angels or Dark Angels, where they're Codex save for a couple of extra units.

Yes, unfortunately they are also still about 1000 dudes. About 1000 dudes in the same armor using the same guns from the same place as the rest of the marines.

I know their fluff, I know what they are supposed to be. I simply don't see them as big enough, different enough, or important enough to warrant a release like this. Regardless though, it looks like they are getting it.

Actually, I suspect you'll see more CSM lists as Counts-As armies using the new SW codex.

Yes because they'll get daemon summoning and all those things the chaos dex lost...?

I would be confused by that statement but it's the chaos armies job to complain so I'll just write it up as another case of putting the whine before the cheese.

Excited about it, my brother plays SW and this should give him more of an inclination to play against me. (He currently doesn't cause my Greenwing Gunline beats his SW generally...)

Wow Shummy your realla negative about space wolves...

ShumaGorath wrote:

Yes, unfortunately they are also still about 1000 dudes. About 1000 dudes in the same armor using the same guns from the same place as the rest of the marines.

I know their fluff, I know what they are supposed to be. I simply don't see them as big enough, different enough, or important enough to warrant a release like this. Regardless though, it looks like they are getting it.

You Obviously DONT know their fluff.

please read this thread.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/236094.page

there is nothing to suggest that the Space Wolves number 1000 men. There is evidence that they do not follow the codex astartes at all, and that they may number over 10,000.

Yay I got linkified!

Also there's also the theory that they are actually smaller than a codex chapter the same way Salamanders are (they average about 700 Marines IIRC) but thats just my deluded view to be honest

Demogerg wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Yes, unfortunately they are also still about 1000 dudes. About 1000 dudes in the same armor using the same guns from the same place as the rest of the marines.

I know their fluff, I know what they are supposed to be. I simply don't see them as big enough, different enough, or important enough to warrant a release like this. Regardless though, it looks like they are getting it.

You Obviously DONT know their fluff.

please read this thread.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/236094.page

there is nothing to suggest that the Space Wolves number 1000 men. There is evidence that they do not follow the codex astartes at all, and that they may number over 10,000.

Which is cute, so do the alpha legion. They aren't important enough to get a book. 10,000 (which is a heavy overestimation, the templars are the only ones that may reach that number) isn't a big numerical advantage. That means that they are 10k vs the ~1 million space marines out there. Sorry, but thats not populous enough.

Wow Shummy your realla negative about space wolves...

My play group plays predominantly marines, tyranids, tau, and guard. Two of the four armies we play are at their core broken. Half of the tyranids upgrades don't work in this edition and the fundamentals of the army (the swarm) are so underpowred that they are essentially worthless. The tau gunline is dead and the mobile army is so badly hobbled right now that it's almost unplayable. Especially now that the new guard codex is so powerful we might as well just hang up the armies and stop trying.

So yeah, wasted development time that could be better spent on one of the actually important armies in this game annoys me. I don't care that they were the first codex. That doesn't matter to me, I wasn't around then. The nostalgia is meaningless to me. They are just marines.

Well... you can make a SW army out of the SM codex.... I just did in the army list forum. Chapter Master= Wolf Lord, Captain= Wolfguard Battle Captain, Librarian= Rune Priest, Chaplain= Wolfpriest, Sternguard Vets= Wolfguard, Vanguard Vets= Blood Claws, Tactical Marines= Grey Hunters, Scouts= Scouts........ it can be done..... that's not to say the Space Wolf following isn't big enough to warrant a codex after all these years....

Oh my God Emperor...

What part of Grey Hunters =/= Tactical Marines don't you people understand?

And ya know what ShumaGorath, no-one really cares what you think. Space Wolves are getting a new codex, and nothing can change that, so I am just gonna sit back and smile knowing it pisses you off so much as I wave about my sexy new codex that will be much, much better than the Nilla Marine one

And ya know what ShumaGorath, no-one really cares what you think. Space Wolves are getting a new codex, and nothing can change that, so I am just gonna sit back and smile knowing it pisses you off so much as I wave about my sexy new codex that will be much, much better than the Nilla Marine one

The space wolf feeling of entitlement to an overpowered book annoys me too. They have always been the kiddie cheese army on top of other things.

Oh yeah, because our codex as it stands is just head and shoulders over things like Dual Lash and Nob Bikers

</sarcasm>

ShumaGorath wrote:
My play group plays predominantly marines, tyranids, tau, and guard. Two of the four armies we play are at their core broken. Half of the tyranids upgrades don't work in this edition and the fundamentals of the army (the swarm) are so underpowred that they are essentially worthless. The tau gunline is dead and the mobile army is so badly hobbled right now that it's almost unplayable. Especially now that the new guard codex is so powerful we might as well just hang up the armies and stop trying.

So yeah, wasted development time that could be better spent on one of the actually important armies in this game annoys me. I don't care that they were the first codex. That doesn't matter to me, I wasn't around then. The nostalgia is meaningless to me. They are just marines.

sounds like a lot of whining from someone who is being selfish and rude.

So you dont think Space Wolves are broken at their core? half of our "special rules" do absolutely nothing. No Matter The Odds anyone? Will Not Teleport? Fang of Morkai? Great Company Banner? Wolf Helm of Russ? Wolf Totem?

Our Grey Hunters ("tactical marines" as you would refer to them as) cost as much or more than vanilla marine tactical marines, yet they dont get bolters, they dont get grenades, they dont get free special weapons, they dont get ANY heavy weapons whatsoever.

Our Rune Priests ("Librarian" as you would refer to it) have one ability which is crappy and useless 90% of the time.

Our Iron Priests ("Techmarine" as you would refer to it) cant repair our vehicles at all. we dont get servo harnesses.

our Wolf Lords ("Space Marine Captains" as you would refer to it) cost more than the vanilla marines when equipped equally, and Space Wolves only have WS5

Our Long Fangs ("Devestator Squad" as you would refer to it) costs more points for just the models, and more points for missile launchers and plasma cannons, AND we dont get bolt pistols, grenades, boltguns, the signum, AND we cant get any albative wounds.

Our Blood Claws are the only viable troop choice, but god forbid you want to run a biker or jump pack unit, we dont get attack bikes, we pay more than vanilla marines, we have WS3 BS3, and we dont get grenades.



why do you think the only 2 competitive Space wolf lists are
lots of blood claws in drop pods
lots of blood claws in land raiders/rhinos

maybe i do need to spell it out for you...
we have a half-assed codex that requires us to use the vanilla marine dex for rules, so we can use decent new land raiders, and decent new drop pods.

Please take your trolling elsewhere.

ShumaGorath wrote:

So you dont think Space Wolves are broken at their core? half of our "special rules" do absolutely nothing. No Matter The Odds anyone? Will Not Teleport? Fang of Morkai? Great Company Banner? Wolf Helm of Russ? Wolf Totem?

Our Blood Claws are the only viable troop choice, but god forbid you want to run a biker or jump pack unit, we dont get attack bikes, we pay more than vanilla marines, we have WS3 BS3, and we dont get grenades.

why do you think the only 2 competitive Space wolf lists are
lots of blood claws in drop pods
lots of blood claws in land raiders/rhinos

maybe i do need to spell it out for you...
we have a half-assed codex that requires us to use the vanilla marine dex for rules, so we can use decent new land raiders, and decent new drop pods.

Please take your trolling elsewhere.

While I agree with some of this I disagree about the Blood Claws, while I think they are very good I normally run GH's and find them expensive points wise but great at what they do. They give the army a hard edge that the BC's don't IMHO. Although a full size BC squad with attached IC's is alot of fun too.

Please take your trolling elsewhere.

Yeah, they are pretty invalid in the current edition. Which is what? 10% of their lifespan in this game?

But hey, with comments like

Space Wolves are getting a new codex, and nothing can change that, so I am just gonna sit back and smile knowing it pisses you off so much as I wave about my sexy new codex that will be much, much better than the Nilla Marine one

how could I think of them as historically the cheese and whine force?

They were invalid in 4th too...

ShumaGorath wrote:
The space wolf feeling of entitlement to an overpowered book annoys me too. They have always been the kiddie cheese army on top of other things.

You misunderstand - at least, AFAIC. The SW Codex will automatically be hands down better than the SM Codex because it's the Space Wolf Codex. Regardless of how under- or overpowered it turns out to be.

Also, I'm surprised no one's brought this up before. It's not the SW who don't deserve a new Codex. All those other Imperial Codices have been mostly superfluous, as there are only TWO forces in the entire Imperium: Space Wolves, and Support . That's all there is to it.

@Gwarl: I recently played against a dual lash army and wiped the floor with it with my drop pod army - Wolf Guard are still nothing less than terrifying, even if they cost an arm and a leg - 3 cyclone launchers in a 5-man squad hurts.
..

ShumaGorath wrote:

But hey, with comments like

Space Wolves are getting a new codex, and nothing can change that, so I am just gonna sit back and smile knowing it pisses you off so much as I wave about my sexy new codex that will be much, much better than the Nilla Marine one

how could I think of them as historically the cheese and whine force?

IMHO:
Having read a large part of this thread, the only impression I get, is one of Sour Grapes.
I also get the impression you are trolling, which is generally a rude selfish thing to do.

I want a new Codex just so it's more in line with 5th edition.
It's got nothing to do with "Cheese and Whine". That's just your blinkered perception.

Personally, I think it would be better all round if a MOD locked this thread

I never said they couldn't win. I still play with my Ruleset and love it to bits, but you cannot ignore the fact that it is breaking at the seams and needs an update desperately.

While sadly this means a more deserving army gets pushed back (Dark Eldar in this case, which is a shame, there is so much that could be done) I don't feel so bad, especially since all the Dark Eldar Player (that's not a typo) I know loves the Codex to bits and utterly Creams everything with it

We don't hate Space Wolves. Many of us have said that of the marines, they are our favourites. We hate space marines. Or at least, the predominance of space marines in the metagame.
Space Wolves playstyle can be replicated by playing vanilla marines with the right special characters and units, or chaos marines. Can tau be replicated in the same way? Or nids? No. That's why we're not sympathetic to complaints of waiting a long time for an update.

All of this said, you're getting a codex, so fine. I'll deal. I just think the game would be better off with less marines and more variety. And I think that variety within marine armies could easily be contained in one book.

perplexiti wrote:

why do you think the only 2 competitive Space wolf lists are
lots of blood claws in drop pods
lots of blood claws in land raiders/rhinos

While I agree with some of this I disagree about the Blood Claws, while I think they are very good I normally run GH's and find them expensive points wise but great at what they do. They give the army a hard edge that the BC's don't IMHO. Although a full size BC squad with attached IC's is alot of fun too.

Hello Shuma, Obvious Troll is Obvious no?

Wolves are great furry, lovable little vikings who are played in my experience, by either the badass biker guy or the petite nerd who wishes he really was one. I really do like them and probably would have bought at least a few had it not been for my brother who collects them on and off. I'm rather happy they are getting a new codex. They are a flavourful and fun army to with and against, the only thing I begrudge them is that they get the updates my beloved Emo Marines will not, but I digress. I sincerely hope that they get a list that is very playable while remaining fluffy. I hope for no Nob Bikers but a list that like the orcs in its mutability. That is a large number of variant lists that are fun and effective. If they get that right they should become a more popular army and a rather fun one to play against.