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ShumaGorath wrote:You know what deserved a 70+ page full codex? The legion book. Not the grey—bite marines.

We all know how you feel, can we please move on as the repeated posting of your opinion has absolutely nothing to do with SW rumors.

Druidic wrote:Can't help but think it would have been better to put ALL the Marine Varients in the Marine Codex however....

But why stop there? Put CSM and Necrons in the Marine codex as well and give them each a page and a special character for Bad-guy Marines and Robot Marines.

People talk about how SW historically have been just a flavor of Space Marines, and as such are irritated to see that they get any kind of attention. Stop thinking about SW's as Gray Marines. Get past the idea that because in the past they were mostly aligned with Vanilla Marines in terms of game rules and organization, then that's all they ever will be. A new SW codex represents an opportunity to create an army with an altogether new feel, flavor, and style. It doesn't have to be just a slight variation from the Vanilla codex. SW's can be as distinct and enjoyable as a completely new faction, just with the familiar S4/T4/3+ stat-line. The army has the potential to be as different from C: SM as C: CSM, or C: Necrons. (Yes, they'll almost certainly share some of the same vehicle units as SM... but then again, so do CSM's. )

Hopefully GW is approaching the project as chance to think outside the box and create a distinct new entity, and not something like C: DA where other than Deathwing/Ravenwing, you could create a better DA army with C: SM. I know, I know, it's GW so all bets are off. But if Phil Kelly is the lead developer, then there is a real good shot at SW's being very different from SM's.

If you stop thinking of SW's as SM's, then you can see the opportunity to essentially add a new army to the game, and as a result, a great deal of value to 40k as a whole. You would think that was a good thing.

Bodichi wrote:@Shuma and HBMC

I think that I and obviously both of you agree that while special characters for diversity of army selection are, not on the surface, desirable occurrences, they do allow for differing army builds and while this as the only option is not optimal it is far better than having no option at all ie: chaos.

I purpose an idea (which is ludicrous as even if it is universally excepted it doesn’t matter) that there be 1 C:SM and 1 C:SM Alternative (BA,DA,BT,SW,WS,SAL,IH). and 1 C:CSM and 1 C:CSM Alternative (WE,TS,EC,DG,AL,NL,WB).

That would be better than what we have now, I suppose...

BDJV wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:You know what deserved a 70+ page full codex? The legion book. Not the grey—bite marines.

We all know how you feel, can we please move on as the repeated posting of your opinion has absolutely nothing to do with SW rumors.

There are no space wolf rumors in this thread. If there were I likely would have left the nerdrage to one comment then mentioned that I fear the hands of the books authors. If the vendetta and the manticore can make it though you can be sure that they won't notice flyingabbadonjetbikebattlecanon McPointbeard who will inevitably be 40 points too cheap. Given the power level of the last wolf dex I can only imagine what kind of beard this thing will have. The book will be growing hair.

If you stop thinking of SW's as SM's, then you can see the opportunity to essentially add a new army to the game, and as a result, a great deal of value to 40k as a whole. You would think that was a good thing.

They're quite different. They're not that different. I for one am not entirely of the opinion that another marine codex and army benefits 40k as a whole. We already have 3 (holy marines, spikey marines, regular marines).

ShumaGorath wrote:They're quite different. They're not that different. I for one am not entirely of the opinion that another marine codex and army benefits 40k as a whole. We already have 3 (holy marines, spikey marines, regular marines).

I would have thought you'd be among the first to point out that GW shouldn't produce a codex based on what benefits the game, but what benefits their bottom line.

They see a product that was very popular before and has upside in the current environment, so it's kind of easy to understand why they greenlit it. As Dienekes said, they also put their best designer on the project, which also probably says something about how GW views their potential.

Again, I'm not interested in SW. But I can completely see how they'll be a big release for GW if handled right.

I would have thought you'd be among the first to point out that GW shouldn't produce a codex based on what benefits the game, but what benefits their bottom line.

I believe the two are one and the same. A bland overmarined game in my mind is bad for the bottom line. It can be a put off when everyone has the same army even if the minutiae is different. Variety is the spice of life, and while space wolves are a new variety of marine thats still another variety of the thing that makes up half of the game already. When they devote so much development time for something like this they lose development time for fixing the broken major races, which ends up bleaching the game in a different way as people begin to shelve their nonhuman armies due to their own issues.

focusedfire wrote:
Problem is that we are going through a human dominated release period and its killing the game. You know GW messed up going for the most bang for the buck by releasing so many SM books in the last three years when you go into a store and there are six players there not playing because they all have SMs and are tired of playing each other. Its times like this that playing xenos scum can make you popular.

Emphasis mine.

I have to disagree. Here's the release order of the last four years (from Wikipedia):
Tyranids
Black Templars
Tau
Eldar
DA/BA
CSM
Orks
Daemons
SM

So, discounting the BA WD codex, over the last 4 years, you've had 3 Imperial codices out of 9 releases. If you count CSM's as human, then you've had 4 of 9. So, let's assume for a moment that the next army after IG are SW's. That means 5 of 11 codices released over a full five calendar years are Imperial. And twice during that period, 3 out of 4 codex releases were NOT Imperial.

So I empathize with you if the game scene in your area suffers because army popularity skews toward Imperial/Human. But I don't think that is because of the release schedule. And I certainly don't think it's a good reason NOT to redo the SW codex.

Cheers

ShumaGorath wrote:They're quite different. They're not that different.

Again, I believe they have the potential to be that different because of their background. More so than BT's, DA/BA, or even GK. That's up to GW though.

ShumaGorath wrote:I for one am not entirely of the opinion that another marine codex and army benefits 40k as a whole. We already have 3 (holy marines, spikey marines, regular marines).

But now we can have feral marines!

Seriously, you have a good point and I don't altogether disagree. But I suspect that, for better or worse, the marketing data shows that the masses continue to yearn for S4/T4/3+ armies. If so then perhaps the best we can hope for is a radically different MEQ army. Fingers crossed.

Seriously, you have a good point and I don't altogether disagree. But I suspect that, for better or worse, the marketing data shows that the masses continue to yearn for S4/T4/3+ armies. If so then perhaps the best we can hope for is a radically different MEQ army. Fingers crossed.

Who knows, if it fits well enough I could use them as the counts as basis for my space sharks. Shrikes guard is good, but not that well fitting.

Asmodai wrote:Sounds pretty good. I'm debating starting something new (depending on how much I can get painted this summer). So far these rumours seem pretty reasonable - updating the army to fit with the rules but keeping the core intact. Hopefully Wolves will get access to the Redeemer and other new SM stuff that got left out of Codex: BA/DA.

Reasonable? Sounds dull to me. These rumors make it sound like they're essentially saying, "Hey SW Players - just use the CSM Codex, but make sure you tell your opponents which models count as what!"

Good to see my prediction that people would use the "GW is the business!" argument a lot, like they always do whenever this is issue is discussed.

Woot.

HBMC: Sorry for putting words in your mouth. I actually agree with most of what you said though- of the variants, the Wolves are the best. I could tolerate Wolves, Templars and Codex marines. Just about.

Those rumours don't look that exciting though. I want to know what the army wide special rule is, and what funky cool stuff they are getting. What's their Mob Rule, or Orders?

Ubermosher, you make an interesting and valid point. It depends on how they decide to play the Spacewolves redux, and even how they decide to title the codex.

Put it this way, they have an opportunity to make a distinct and different codex which will allow Marine Fans to do another Marine Army which has different stuff in it but is not Vanilla, Spikey or Holy..... a fourth "Furry" chapter.... who don't neccessarily need to be furry!

You could title it something like "Pre-heresy Marines".... After all basically Vanila marines are a creation of Guiliman post heresy, but the Space Pups refused to accept that and kept their own organisation, which could be considered reflective of an earlier (or just plane "different") style.

I think peoples objection to "Codex Space Pups" goes something along the lines of "Whats so special about space pups which means they deserve so much development time when BA/DA/BT/Etc don't?"

If GW instead go down the "Vanilla or Not Vanilla" route that sort of goes out the window....

Shame, cause of course they have already missed that boat which sailed some months ago!

Asmodai wrote:
Hopefully Wolves will get access to the Redeemer and other new SM stuff that got left out of Codex: BA/DA.

Actually I hope they don't.... that would be really REALLY bad, cause then you go back to the "If you want to play Marines, better play Spacewolved cause they get all the stuff marines have plus 2 pages of extra rules which make them better for free" mentallity which would REALLY hack me off big time!

I never did get why they got a whole page of extra rules for free? Why!

Of all the armies I've played and collected since "Rogue Trader", none have had the same buzz or held my interest so intensely as the Wolves.
I am glad to be having a new 'dex. I've waited long enough.

OT: Anyone know if we'll be getting Teleport back? Seems a bit daft having terminators can only really use Drop Pods as a deep Strike option.

The designers are bad at their jobs?

sonofruss wrote:
Our point is the space wolves are not codex marines they have a organization completely back wards from a codex chapter.
Space wolves start as blood claws with scout stats and end up as wolf lords or long fangs, and occasionally they get to be wolf guard or scouts how would you do that with the current codex?

Umm, use the SM codex and take scouts w/BP CCW? Take Termies as WG in Termi armor? Take tacs as grey hunters? Tace devs as Longfangs?

About the only difference between a Codex SM force and a SW force on the field is that the SWs tend to be more fighty. The rest is fluff, not function. So maybe CCWs added to all models at +1 point/model. How does that *need* a totally different codex?

Seriously, I understand the fans like SWs and GW wants to sell SWs, but crying that boohoo we can't make a SW army right now is a little disingenuous.

I am waiting to see if SWs are really good (in which case marines and CSMs will start counting as SWs) or suck (in which case SWs just use C:SM anyway).

jmurph wrote:
About the only difference between a Codex SM force and a SW force on the field is that the SWs tend to be more fighty. The rest is fluff, not function. So maybe CCWs added to all models at +1 point/model. How does that *need* a totally different codex?

Thanks for proving my point. Because of the similarity they need a totally different codex. Because of the established fluff you can actually justify a radical new function. Wouldn't you want to face a different army for a change instead of yet another SM variety?

@uber: I hear you, but I don't quite see it. SW *are* SM (WS4 BS4 S4 T4 I4 Sv3+).

Sure, SW are fightier, but fundamentally, they fight and die a *lot* more like SM than Orks / Eldar / Nids / Guard.

And yes SW have the same problem as BA & BT, which is to be fighty but not Chaos-like.

But "totally different"? Give me a break.

JohnHwangDD wrote:@uber: I hear you, but I don't quite see it. SW *are* SM (WS4 BS4 S4 T4 I4 Sv3+).

Sure, SW are fightier, but fundamentally, they fight and die a *lot* more like SM than Orks / Eldar / Nids / Guard.

And yes SW have the same problem as BA & BT, which is to be fighty but not Chaos-like.

But "totally different"? Give me a break.

This is about what I was going to say, albeit it in a more diplomatic way.

In 2nd ed, you had:
Ultramarines (basic)
Blood Angels (assault/fighty/vampires)
Dark Angels (Monastic/termies)
Space Wolves (assault/fighty/vikings)

Now, we have:
Ultramarines (basic, but with special characters you can be fighty, termie, mechanized, drop-pod, bikes, etc. - the only thing you can't be is a vampire or viking. But you can wear robes if you want )
Dark Angels (monastic/termie, but not as good as Ultras)
Blood Angels (assault, fighty, less like vampires)
Black Templars (assault, monastic, run forward at you)
Space Wolves (assault, viking, old old dex in comparison)

Am I missing any SM books? We only added one? Why does it seem like there are more? I personally don't like the BTs that much. I loved them in 2nd, but GW took them as a popular army out of Armageddon, created their fluff from wholecloth, and shoe-horned them into the Marine rotation. I don't see them as that different than DA, BA, or SW.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of the Wolves. If anything, I'd dump BTs use that energy to make the "big 4" work differently/better.

So where is the "new marine paradigm" that makes them potentially different from any of the others?

Space Wolves were different than standard marines in 2nd with all of them being +1 weapons skill. So they were better in CC than any other marines. Maybe, just maybe we'll see a return to something like that.

that would be sweet to have a new space wolfs codex....id buy it

ubermosher wrote: Because of the established fluff you can actually justify a radical new function. Wouldn't you want to face a different army for a change instead of yet another SM variety?

Last I checked space wolves WERE in fact just another SM variety.

No new dex needed, not when DE, necrons, NIds, eldar, etc. are needed more.

As has been mentioned allready, you can still use your space wolf models and use the current space marine codex.

GG

wyomingfox wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Marines are marines are marines. Who cares? They all die to plasma love/breath of chaos. Once you know that, you know all you need to know.

Ain't it great when the MODS go a trolling

Thats not trolling. This is trolling






Moving to discussions

I believe the title of the thread is
Space Wolves Codex Rumours.

Not the whys and wherefores of should they have one.

AdrianG wrote:I believe the title of the thread is
Space Wolves Codex Rumours.

Not the whys and wherefores of should they have one.

I believe that is why the mod moved it to discussions.


GG

generalgrog wrote:

I believe that is why the mod moved it to discussions.


GG

Took me 20 minutes to calm down enough to post that "polite" post of mine.. missed the move.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:First off I want to say that all those people saying the Space Wolf book came out 9 years ago, you have your facts wrong. I know this because I remember the Space Wolf Codex came out when I was in grad school, I remember it well.

So that can't be nine years ago.

Denying that you are old won't change the date it was released.. lol.. It was released the same year I started working for GW.. 2000.. sorry mate, it's been 9 years.. ( 9 hard years.. )

generalgrog wrote:

ubermosher wrote: Because of the established fluff you can actually justify a radical new function. Wouldn't you want to face a different army for a change instead of yet another SM variety?

Last I checked space wolves WERE in fact just another SM variety.

No new dex needed, not when DE, necrons, NIds, eldar, etc. are needed more.

As has been mentioned allready, you can still use your space wolf models and use the current space marine codex.

GG

Not really, we have terminators with differnt weapon loadouts, tacticals with differnet weapon loadouts, bike squads with different weapon loadouts, assault squads with differnent weapon loadouts, and scout squads with different weapon loadouts...unless you want to play a counts as army that isn't WYSIWYG.

jmurph wrote:

sonofruss wrote:
Our point is the space wolves are not codex marines they have a organization completely back wards from a codex chapter.
Space wolves start as blood claws with scout stats and end up as wolf lords or long fangs, and occasionally they get to be wolf guard or scouts how would you do that with the current codex?

Umm, use the SM codex and take scouts w/BP CCW? Take Termies as WG in Termi armor? Take tacs as grey hunters? Tace devs as Longfangs?

About the only difference between a Codex SM force and a SW force on the field is that the SWs tend to be more fighty. The rest is fluff, not function. So maybe CCWs added to all models at +1 point/model. How does that *need* a totally different codex?

Seriously, I understand the fans like SWs and GW wants to sell SWs, but crying that boohoo we can't make a SW army right now is a little disingenuous.

I am waiting to see if SWs are really good (in which case marines and CSMs will start counting as SWs) or suck (in which case SWs just use C:SM anyway).

The problem with this is space wolf scouts are full marines. Not like regular scouts wolf guard termies can have any weapon allowed to a terminator in any configuration you want not possible with the blue codex grey hunters can wipe the table with a regular tac squad and long fangs split fire cant do that with the blue codex ether. Like I said in my above post blood claws are not assault troopers they have ws and bs of 3 like scouts and they get 2 attacks when they charge plus 2 weapon combo. There are 15 blood claws possible in the squad can't do that in the blue codex.
You take 20 terminators one squad of shooty one squad of fighty against my wolf guard and you wont last 2 turns.
My wolf guard under the current codex 8 assault cannons 6 lightning claws 6 stormbolters powerfist. And then add the two wolf lords that they are guarding feel the pain.
There is no other way to replicate the way this army works with another codex

A pound says they nerf the hell out of it.