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The Iron warriors lost there extra heavy support and a bassie but how has that changed? oblit spam and dual lash.

So space wolves are more different from regular marines then iron warriors are from chaos.

I now anoint this new round of my stick is bigger than your stick.

ShumaGorath wrote:For a quick summation non point by point response:

You're army deserves an update, it's not important enough financially to GW, doesn't have the player base, and isn't important enough storyline wise to deserve its own full book. It should get another halfjob like it had last time. Like specialty sub armies should all have since they are neither full products nor flagship releases.

Space wolves are bitey marines. Why do they deserve so much more than:
fast orks
dead eldar
black marines
iron warriors
ALL OF THE OTHER CHAOS SUBCHAPTERS WHICH ARE EVERY BIT AS IMPORTANT AND DIFFERENT
and all those other subarmies that got the shaft

Why do they deserve a 70+ page opus when raven guard get to live with one page? When the White Scars are now generic marines? When the tyranid codex has 10 times its playerbase and is functionally broken? When the Tau codex is likely to be shorter once this thing comes out and is fairly unplayable? When the necron codex is a joke? When the witchhunters book is an even bigger joke?

The marines and guard deserved and needed updates. The Space wolves Deserved a really nice PDF or a 20 page minibook like they had last time. Not a third (or likely more) of a years development.

Thats "our" (mine) argument.

I'll bite.

I'd love to see your basis for the business assumptions you are making. The "it's not important enough financially to GW, doesn't have the player base" add-on to your existing argument for which all of the data appears to be in your head. Clearly, the company making the release schedules feels it is financially important enough, and I'll make the deduction they have more data than you. They also assigned the games designer responsible for some of their most popular Codices to it's development and writing. Onto the story criticality...I have no idea what you are talking about. If story is relevant, then I'll rebut by saying that Dan Abnett is widely considered their best writer at BL...and he is writing the SW Heresy book. Which they are making an EVENT out of, unlike the other HH releases. So there is that.

Furthermore, your solution (a PDF) is a release method completely UNUSED by the company. They released a WD list once for the BA, and they specifically said they would not do so again.

Your fundamental issue is completely based on your paradigm ...what you consider major/flagship armies. Interestingly, you also stated the SW being the first Codex had no relevance. Considering many militaries calls the first ship of each class the "flagship", I could argue that SW are very clearly a flagship army. They have been a favorite of several generations of GW rules designers - Chambers to Kelly. And of GW writers - Bill King to Abnett.

So maybe they are getting the royal treatment...because they ARE a flagship release, if not in materials/time needs (as the DE are), but in interest. Since the company doesn't do "updates", they do army releases. And SW are due. More than due.

Da Boss wrote:slightly pro-wolf skewed stuff

It's strange that you say that because I've never had any real interest in the Space Wolves. I'm interested in the modelling prospects a new release will bring, but that's about it. The closest I have ever had to a Space Wolf army is the three or so Space Wolves I have in my Deathwatch army. For a long time I actually disliked the Wolves because I was a hard-line Ultramarine player who saw any deviation from the Codex as an affront to the Emperor. The only time the Wolves have ever truly interested me was with the 13th Company, as the narrative scope there was huge.

If I sound pro-Wolf it's not because I really think that Space Wolves will be the best next Codex but because I'm a proponent of variety and scope. Space Wolves, being so utterly alien to vanilla Marines when it comes to fighting style, add that variety.

Da Boss wrote:I would tend to disagree, as I see the dominance of Space Marines as a major problem with 40K.

I got over that fact and moved on a while ago. Games Workshop wants to make money and stay in business. Space Marines are their biggest seller. It's just good business to keep them prominent and dominant. But, if we're going to be stuck with Marines being one in every two or three releases, then let's at least make them as different from one another as possible. Again, here is why Space Wolves (and Black Templars) are good armies to keep up to date with their own Codices (and why more Codex Chapters like Raven Guard and Crimson Fists are not).

Da Boss wrote:And I'd like to see Chaos done as a combined arms book that had LATD, Marine and Daemon elements. This makes the most sense to me.

As a Lost & The Damned player, and one who adored the last Chaos Codex for its variety, scope and flavour (not to mention the ability to field my $1200 worth of Daemons along side my Chaos Marines as actual daemons, not those generic pieces of gak we have now), I agree with you. Armies of heretics and traitors (not Marines) are the most common type of enemy in the fluff (along with Orks), yet they have no army to represent them. They did, for a year or so, but then they went away again. Rolling them into a real Chaos Codex, and dragging the Daemons back into the book where they belong, would be a great thing.

But don't get your hopes up. GW is more about splitting armies up into mono-dimensional forces (Demons or Chaos, never both) or forces altered only by the presence of Special Characters (Marines, Dark Angels). I dread what's going to happen to my previous Inquisitorial forces when they get around to re-working them into Codex: Grey Knights and Codex: Sisters of Battle. When that happens I'll have another army of mine shelved thanks to the idiots at GW.

Da Boss wrote:It's all sideways to the point of the thread, but when there is this much exasperation out there over something, it's good to think about why that might be the case.

A very good point!

ShumaGorath wrote:

The Iron warriors lost there extra heavy support and a bassie but how has that changed? oblit spam and dual lash.

So space wolves are more different from regular marines then iron warriors are from chaos.

I now anoint this new round of my stick is bigger than your stick.

Yes they are not a codex chapter they don't follow the codex so why shouldn't they have there own book.
space wolves have different rules from the codex chapters. Blood claws are not assault marines they are better and worse than the assault marines. They get more attacks and have larger numbers but there attacks don't hit as often. Grey hunters can use a bolter and a ccw. They don't have Sargents they have wolfguard that are better and worse than the sarg one they cost more in the current codex I pay 60 pts per wolfguard that buys two assault cannons in the new marine codex. Trying to pdf the codex won't work you can't fit a ton of feathers in a five pound bag
Iron warriors are a undivided legion they follow the undivided codex they have minor changes from the old rules but still viable as a army.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Anyway I checked with a friend of mine who once changed planes in England and he tells me that the new Space Wolf Codex is going to have some of the best models you've ever seen, art that really captures the look of the army and rules that are fantastic. He says everyone will want to start a new Space Wolf army.

As an Imperial Guard player, reading stuff like this makes me feel insanely ripped off.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Anyway I checked with a friend of mine who once changed planes in England and he tells me that the new Space Wolf Codex is going to have some of the best models you've ever seen, art that really captures the look of the army and rules that are fantastic. He says everyone will want to start a new Space Wolf army.

As an Imperial Guard player, reading stuff like this makes me feel insanely ripped off.

If only he wasn't being sarcastic.

Puppies get a new dex, my bookshelf gets a new resident. I play DA, I have since second, and just started Salamanders. I loved the Angels of Death book, great idea to get 2 armies in a single codex. I believe the only people with a right to complain are the DE players, they are long due for their time in the sun.

I'm really sorry if this was already posted, but I was wondering: Considering the Guard got the shaft with the $22 boxes, will SW's get it up the butt too?

Also, I have regular SM guys also, so could I intersperse them throughout the Space Wolves I already have (not just grunts, but dreds or bikes too?)?


-A.

Edit: WOOT! 100 posts!

So your pissed that the Wolves are getting a new codex. You play Xenos (doesn't matter which one). Lets just see how soon your day in the sun is.

Deamons
Dark Eldar
Eldar
Tau
Necrons
Tyranids

Those are the obvious Xenos armies. But lets expand just a hair and add in the others that have other stuff than just marines.

Deamon Hunters
Witch Hunters
Chaos

Assuming each codex takes 6 months to work out, spin the damn bottle and see what comes up next. Saying such and such is newer so it doesn't get revised means drek. Chaos has seen 3 codexs since wolves and DE saw their first. Who knows, maybe Orks or IG will see another update in 3 years. If your pet army comes up last on the xeno's redo order and assuming not a single Space Marine list comes out until each Xeno's list is redone that puts you at... ohh... 4 1/2 years.

Now don't you feel just a little bit stupid complaining about 6 months. The wolves codex has pushed you back to 5 years instead of 4 1/2. Hell, we probably will be into 6th edition before your codex comes out. That development might just push you back to the 6 year waiting period.

The over all problem is the rate at which GW puts out the new books. Two a year with a special event thrown in. Some (maybe even BA or DA) probably wont see a revision this edition. You can only hope that your pet army shows up someplace on the radar sooner than later. Or you could be in last place and know just what it is to be a current SW or DE player.

Vladsimpaler wrote:As an Imperial Guard player, reading stuff like this makes me feel insanely ripped off.

I feel your pain.

I agree though the Wolfs need a much needed overhaul.

InquisitorFabius wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Anyway I checked with a friend of mine who once changed planes in England and he tells me that the new Space Wolf Codex is going to have some of the best models you've ever seen, art that really captures the look of the army and rules that are fantastic. He says everyone will want to start a new Space Wolf army.

As an Imperial Guard player, reading stuff like this makes me feel insanely ripped off.

If only he wasn't being sarcastic.

Puppies get a new dex, my bookshelf gets a new resident. I play DA, I have since second, and just started Salamanders. I loved the Angels of Death book, great idea to get 2 armies in a single codex. I believe the only people with a right to complain are the DE players, they are long due for their time in the sun.

I'm not complaining.

I'm just disappointed that the Wolves are getting this cool new codex (which I feel they deserve) but then Imperial Guard, well, don't.

Just some new guy who doesn't know what he's doing.

Again, to reiterate, I'm not angry. Not in the slightest.

Jayden63 wrote:Chaos has seen 3 codexs since wolves and DE saw their first. Who knows, maybe Orks or IG will see another update in 3 years.

If your pet army comes up last on the xeno's redo order and assuming not a single Space Marine list comes out until each Xeno's list is redone that puts you at... ohh... 4 1/2 years.

The over all problem is the rate at which GW puts out the new books. Two a year with a special event thrown in. Some (maybe even BA or DA) probably wont see a revision this edition.

Chaos, Orks, & IG are core armies, so they will all see updates within the next 3 to 5 years. DE was a very poor release and will be lucky to see a release within the next 3 years (i.e. during 5th Edition).

The problem with your 4-5 year timeline is that you assume that GW is still eager to have every army gets a redo within each edition. As GW has demonstrated, second-tier Codices do not receive that luxury, and appear to skip editions. So it is entirely possible that most of the second tier Codices will go 7 to 10 years between updates, whereas first tier Codices will be updated on a 3 to 5 year schedule.

GW appears to do 3 Codices a year, plus something "big", which isn't too bad of a pace, I think. It's just that we were really spoiled by 3E when GW was *forced* to accelerate the Codex release schedule. Besides, if GW were to accelerate the Codex pace back up to 5 Codices per year, that would mean a 40% reduction in the time they could spend doing whatever playtesting and balancing they currently do...

Jayden63 wrote:that would mean a 40% reduction in the time they could spend doing whatever playtesting and balancing they currently do...

I seriously lol'd IRL. They need to stop doing in house playtesting, instead give out rules to people who will actually find ways to break the armies. You can't find everything, but I think it would do a great deal to help with the rules.

However, I may be incorrect, and they may outsource some playtesting to players. But if they do, they need to expand it to more than the UK crowd because it's an entirely different gaming culture.

Off-topic-The wolves should have gotten the release slot that the IG currently got and the IG should have waited untill next year.

I like the wolves. Cool back story and the only SMs that I like.

Problem is that we are going through a human dominated release period and its killing the game. You know GW messed up going for the most bang for the buck by releasing so many SM books in the last three years when you go into a store and there are six players there not playing because they all have SMs and are tired of playing each other. Its times like this that playing xenos scum can make you popular.

This doesn't happen every where but regional affinity for certain armies does exist here in the US. When you combine this regional affinity with a repititious and boring release schedule it ends up driving people away from the game in certain areas.

I,IMHO, think GW should alternate between human and xenos and run a campain every year for the armies released. Just my take on it.


On-Topic- Any credible rumors about the Wolves?

Space wolves are cool. I can't believe anyone would want to deny them an updated codex. I dont and never will play them.

The reason space wolves get a new codex is cause they get updated models. You cant cram all the marines together cause they all have so many different models. If you dont need different models you will never get regular rules.

Someone said raven guard only get one page. I say wut? What differnet model do they even need? Shrike plus what?

The previous rumors were the removal of the exterminator but with gw retooling the russ I don't know.
As to too much human in the resent past my flgs has been packed with gamers playing 40k.
There are 5 or 6 human players the rest xeno our problem is table space, we are playing larger battles with fewer points per person.

This was posted by Dosadi at Warseer a while back and is the only rumor with any detail so far.

I do know that some playtesting has certainly been done and is ongoing.

Blood Claws are armed with BP&CCW, frag & krack and can take special weapons or PF/PWs. Furious Charge instead of berserker charge. Minimum squad size is 10 and they can go as high as 20. WS goes up to 4 but BS stays at 3.

Grey Hunters are armed like Chaos marines (i.e. everything). No more True Grit, but Counter Charge stays for this unit; can take an assortment of special weapons or PF/PWs. Squad Leader is a wolf guard with options like a vet sergeant from CA

Jump pack Blood Claws are a separate entry now.

Wolf Guard are split into two squad types - terminators and power armour.
All wolf scouts can infiltrate or come on from any table edge.
Long Fangs stay as is as far as I know. Probably picking up a BP& CCW in addition to their big guns.

Dreads and ven dreads go down to WS4, but Bjorn is back as a special character. I don’t know if they can be HQ.

I wish I knew more.

Sorry BDJV, but Dosadi's rumours are without merit or truth. Everyone knows GW doesn't playtest.

I'm excited for a new SW 'dex regardless of new rules, the Wolves were gonna be my Army until I couldn't get a hold of the 'dex, none in Store and the Online store was sold out back in '07. I still have some of the Grey Hunter doubling as Chaos Marines.

As much as I'd dislike having two SM armies, the Renegades and SW, I might just have to have them both.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Sorry BDJV, but Dosadi's rumours are without merit or truth. Everyone knows GW doesn't playtest.

What was I thinking?

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Anyway I checked with a friend of mine who once changed planes in England and he tells me that the new Space Wolf Codex is going to have some of the best models you've ever seen, art that really captures the look of the army and rules that are fantastic. He says everyone will want to start a new Space Wolf army.

As an Imperial Guard player, reading stuff like this makes me feel insanely ripped off.

And well it should. Let me tell you my buddy is never wrong about these things.

dienekes96 you slay me! "Get Herpies"! Laugh!

But seriously, Part of me is glad the Pups get a new codex, cause then there will be some new sprues and they have always been my favourite for cool conversion bits, but part of me can't help but also feel that releasing them as a seperate codex is bad juju, other armies need a new codex more.

But as has been pointed out its a commercial decission and I'm sure the pups WILL sell, even at butt rapping prices!

Can't help but think it would have been better to put ALL the Marine Varients in the Marine Codex however....

Question:

Druidic wrote:other armies need a new codex more.

How do you determine need? Isn't 'need' in this context just a euphemism for 'deserve'?

Druidic wrote:Can't help but think it would have been better to put ALL the Marine Varients in the Marine Codex however...

Then we'd have two Chaos Marine Codices - each one as lifeless and boring as the next, just one has less spikes.

Need, Want, Deserve, effectively the same....

Are you trying to say SM and CSM are the same? I'd never noticed! .

Remove the cool "Different" stuff from CSM and you get SM, which is effectively what they have already done... you could even argue why not release an Uber Marine Codex covering all chapters codex, non codex and "Naughty"

There is argument from a commercial perspective that Marines are hugely more popular then any other race or faction (and have been since day 1!) and that therefor it makes sense to pimp them some more with chapter dex but other then that I can't see the sense in handeling Marines any different to other factions, ie You Get's 1 Book Wiv Everfing In It.... Cope.

Thing is, its been 9 years since the last SW Codex, why even release one at all? Why not allow them to fall into the SM Background like all the other chapters?

Sure they have different Background..... so does EVERYONES chapter (in particular if you make your own)

Sure they work differently.... but unless your worried about competative play, the dex, heck even the rules are only a guideline, bend, nay BREAK them to have fun!

Sure they have cool figures, they are even still available or shock horror convert your own, like everyone with a different chapter already does!

I'm not anti SW, I like them, they are cool, hells teath my WIFE'S a closet viking, I have GOT to like them (or loose teeth) I just dont quite understand why the expenditure of time and effort which I BELIEVE is better spent elsewhere......

GW must believe it makes commercial sense and at the end of the day, that's what drives them... commerce

BDJV wrote:This was posted by Dosadi at Warseer a while back and is the only rumor with any detail so far.

I do know that some playtesting has certainly been done and is ongoing.

Blood Claws are armed with BP&CCW, frag & krack and can take special weapons or PF/PWs. Furious Charge instead of berserker charge. Minimum squad size is 10 and they can go as high as 20. WS goes up to 4 but BS stays at 3.

Grey Hunters are armed like Chaos marines (i.e. everything). No more True Grit, but Counter Charge stays for this unit; can take an assortment of special weapons or PF/PWs. Squad Leader is a wolf guard with options like a vet sergeant from CA

Jump pack Blood Claws are a separate entry now.

Wolf Guard are split into two squad types - terminators and power armour.
All wolf scouts can infiltrate or come on from any table edge.
Long Fangs stay as is as far as I know. Probably picking up a BP& CCW in addition to their big guns.

Dreads and ven dreads go down to WS4, but Bjorn is back as a special character. I don’t know if they can be HQ.

I wish I knew more.

Sounds pretty good. I'm debating starting something new (depending on how much I can get painted this summer). So far these rumours seem pretty reasonable - updating the army to fit with the rules but keeping the core intact. Hopefully Wolves will get access to the Redeemer and other new SM stuff that got left out of Codex: BA/DA.

With CSM armament, True Grit is basically redundant anyway - make as well get rid of a special rule if you can.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Druidic wrote:Can't help but think it would have been better to put ALL the Marine Varients in the Marine Codex however...

Then we'd have two Chaos Marine Codices - each one as lifeless and boring as the next, just one has less spikes.

Isn't that what we have currently? Or am I the only person who dislikes the fact that they took out Chapter Traits to replace it with a pseudo Chapter Traits if you take our heroes and play herohammer. Cause personally I liked 4th Ed Marines better, and current Vanilla Marines are just as bad if not worse than the Renegades Book.

Also directed at some one from earlier in the thread about a BA leading the BT, how is that any different than Running Calgar with the Raven Guard, or a home brew chapter, which is completely legal in the 5th Ed Marine book.

The way I see it, Space Wolves NEED a new codex. I believe that there is a difference between NEEDing something and WANTing something. The wait for Codex Space Wolf has been a long one, almost as long as the Ork Codex (wasn't that something like 11years?).

I am currently holding off my true scale marine project due to this codex coming out. Space wolves were my first army, I still have the first codex for them somewhere. I am super stocked that they may and hopefully will get a new sprue or two like the Black Templar's.

The other issue that I feel has been lost in this thread is the fact that unlike the Blood Angels/Dark Angels the Ultramarines and their Space Marine off spring is that they, for the most part, follow the Index Astartes. They have followed the organizational pattern set before them by Guilliaman. The Wolves and the Templar's have a different organizational structure and in my mind they need different books to show their prominent distinctions.

anyway, bring on the Wolves, they have been the coolest of all marine chapters and I'd love to do them true scale!!

Now all I have to do is wait, might as well collect the bits I need and be ready when they drop =D

BrotherStynier wrote:Isn't that what we have currently? Or am I the only person who dislikes the fact that they took out Chapter Traits to replace it with a pseudo Chapter Traits if you take our heroes and play herohammer. Cause personally I liked 4th Ed Marines better, and current Vanilla Marines are just as bad if not worse than the Renegades Book.

I'm right with you as far as the special character thing goes - I don't know why that, for example, in order to play Salamanders you have to bring Heman to every battle, or why, in the DA Codex, Belial has to tag along to every engagement the Deathwing undertake. Why it couldn't be "Salamanders - Replace Chapter Tactics with X, and, oh, here's a cool non-mandatory special character if you choose to play Salamanders". The cynic in me says "So they can sell special character models", but the cynicn in me always tends to draw Shumagorath into any thread I say that in, so I won't say it.

But on the bright side, at least Marine players can play their Chapters, even if they have to bring a named character to every battle to do so. Chaos didn't get that luxury. I'll take mandatory non-special Special Characters that give Legion rules over no Legion rules thanks.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

BrotherStynier wrote:Isn't that what we have currently? Or am I the only person who dislikes the fact that they took out Chapter Traits to replace it with a pseudo Chapter Traits if you take our heroes and play herohammer. Cause personally I liked 4th Ed Marines better, and current Vanilla Marines are just as bad if not worse than the Renegades Book.

I'm right with you as far as the special character thing goes - I don't know why that, for example, in order to play Salamanders you have to bring Heman to every battle, or why, in the DA Codex, Belial has to tag along to every engagement the Deathwing undertake. Why it couldn't be "Salamanders - Replace Chapter Tactics with X, and, oh, here's a cool non-mandatory special character if you choose to play Salamanders". The cynic in me says "So they can sell special character models", but the cynicn in me always tends to draw Shumagorath into any thread I say that in, so I won't say it.

But on the bright side, at least Marine players can play their Chapters, even if they have to bring a named character to every battle to do so. Chaos didn't get that luxury. I'll take mandatory non-special Special Characters that give Legion rules over no Legion rules thanks.

I see you point, on that issue, though it was the Characters that drove me to move my army to Chaos. I could do what I wanted better with the Renegade list than with the Vanilla dex, and I can come up with some interesting personal fluff to fill in a lack of Chaos fluff and to have the army make sense.

But yeah your idea of what they could have done would have been better than what they did, though I still miss the ability to infiltrate with two Plasma Guns or Meltas. Regardless of how cheesy the red shirts say it was.

but the cynicn in me always tends to draw Shumagorath into any thread I say that in, so I won't say it.

I exited when the "my army is the only special sub army that deserves to exist because i'm old and it used to be relevant" brigade started shouting that the space wolves were more important than iron warriors/iyandan/speed freaks/white scars/tau/necrons/tyranids "just because".

Hell, I play none of the armies involved and know only one person that does. My codex came out 2 codexes ago and a third of my playgroup plays guard.

I just don't think they deserve a full release given that they are at best half an army. Wooooo your special space marines because you're bitey and have gray armor. So much more special than the space mongols or alpha legion or any of those other special armies that "deserve" a release.

tl/dr ITT selfish baawwwwwwwing

But on the bright side, at least Marine players can play their Chapters, even if they have to bring a named character to every battle to do so. Chaos didn't get that luxury. I'll take mandatory non-special Special Characters that give Legion rules over no Legion rules thanks.

You know what deserved a 70+ page full codex? The legion book. Not the grey—bite marines.

@Shuma and HBMC

I think that I and obviously both of you agree that while special characters for diversity of army selection are, not on the surface, desirable occurrences, they do allow for differing army builds and while this as the only option is not optimal it is far better than having no option at all ie: chaos.

I purpose an idea (which is ludicrous as even if it is universally excepted it doesn’t matter) that there be 1 C:SM and 1 C:SM Alternative (BA,DA,BT,SW,WS,SAL,IH). and 1 C:CSM and 1 C:CSM Alternative (WE,TS,EC,DG,AL,NL,WB).