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If those wards work indefinitely, then they're a perpetual motion machine. I don't see any sign of the laws of thermodynamics being thrown out of the window by the fluff, more compensated for by additional power sources - be they warp-based or ultratech. So, we can rule out the idea of those wards having a 1+ invulnerable save for all eternity.

What does this mean? The wards will have a lifespan, and in the absence of being recharged or replaced can be burned out by sustained exposure to their polar opposite.

lindsay40k wrote:
Because the sight of a single corrupted suit of Grey Knight Tactical Dreadnought Armour will send every loyalist who recognises it for what it is into a deep hopeless despair, make the unsure realise that none can stand before chaos and they may as well throw their cards in with the winning side, and draw infuriated Grey Knights into battles of the Chaos commander's choosing?

tl;dr: trophy value.

But that's the thing, every loyalist that ever saw it would not know what it was due to being mind-wiped. Most CSM and Daemons probably wouldn't entirely know what they were, other than that they suck to try to touch due to the wards. And the train of thought about de-warding the armor is just silly. Watch:

"I have a pair of pants. These pants are Scotchguarded, so they're resistant to stains, including to, but not limited to Coke. As I understand, this is built into the pants. To corrupt them, I'm going to keep pouring Coke on them until they end up stained."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ChrisIronBrow wrote:I'd play against them no problem. Grey Knights are far from incorruptible. The new fluff has made that very very clear. between wholesale slaughter of innocent witnesses to the murder and blood rituals of allied sisters, and the casual use of daemon weapons thinking "they" know better, the grey knights are clearly on thier way to a fall to chaos. The extreme hubris required to consider yourself incorruptible is one of many weaknesses that lead the original legions to thier fall.

They do bad things because they have to in order to get the job done. They're the 'grey' area between good and evil, keeping the Imperium going. They can do this without slipping to evil because they are incorruptable. Also, the whole point of Crowe is that he DOESN'T use the daemon weapon because he DOES know better. Inquisitors on the other hand, aren't Grey Knights. They're quite corruptable, and they do use Daemonweapons.

lindsay40k wrote:If those wards work indefinitely, then they're a perpetual motion machine. I don't see any sign of the laws of thermodynamics being thrown out of the window by the fluff, more compensated for by additional power sources - be they warp-based or ultratech. So, we can rule out the idea of those wards having a 1+ invulnerable save for all eternity.

What does this mean? The wards will have a lifespan, and in the absence of being recharged or replaced can be burned out by sustained exposure to their polar opposite.

the wards don't need power.


its more that the symbols channel the warps power like a wire conducts electricity.


they channel the warp power away from the armor and in ways which are damaging to entities using such energy.



the Wards are like hardware, the actual warp energy attempting to corrupt them has to try and overwhelm the wards. which would destroy the armor as the armor is completely warded, down to the atomic level.

Grey Templar wrote:the wards don't need power.


its more that the symbols channel the warps power like a wire conducts electricity.


they channel the warp power away from the armor and in ways which are damaging to entities using such energy.



the Wards are like hardware, the actual warp energy attempting to corrupt them has to try and overwhelm the wards. which would destroy the armor as the armor is completely warded, down to the atomic level.

This. I've never seen any indication that the warding needed power. Who's to say they would anyway? You don't have to power a lightning rod, nor do you need power for an old TV Tower antenna. Magnets don't need power either. There are plenty of 'forces' in the REAL world that interact with others simply due to their own properties.

Brother-Captain-Rawr! wrote:

I'll answer the first part because your second piece of writing makes no sense to me at all.

I wrote 'within reason' with full clarity. The purpose of me writing that was to show that personally I would not completely disregard the established fluff. Rather, work AROUND the current fluff in a plausable manner.

it makes as much sense as your GK-idea.....

on to this "first part":

Around?
When has a work-around not been a sign of no way straight to ?

Lets look at your first post in this case:

Jesus christ. is everyone still posting about this? lol


Fluff-wise anything is feasible.

I would say that firstly; non-daemonic chaos worshippers would be able to get rid of any warding symbols/words ect as they are not troubled by the blessings, prayers or wards etched into the armor. That leaves only the invisible wards/blessings or whatever they are, which I am sure can be broken down by extremely powerful daemons 'eventually' ... nomatter how uncomfortable it may be for them. Once the armour is free of the emperors holy taint, it will be a perfect vessel for a daemon.
Now in this scenario, no grey knight has fallen to chaos necessarily (satisfying the hard core GK fluff followers) but the chaos followers HAVE captured GK armour in which can be made suitable as a demonic vessel.

So long story short ... I see no reason why making chaos grey knights and playing with them can not be justified.

Like I say, the only limit is your imagination and It will be a sad day when we stop making gak up lol

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 19/06/2011 01:20:05

So anything is feasible is not an excuse to disregard the background whenever it pleases you?
Like making gak up, which isn't describing the quality of this idea and the way to do it, ie gak and making up instead of working with the given outlines?

Like multiple posters said, no proof of the impossibility of taking off these wards isn't proof of the possibility of taking off these wards.
Your whole idea is based on the mistake of possessing dead creatures ( not happening ) and the second mistake of removing wards without destroying the armor beyond usage.
So in general, the dark mech would make their own variant of armor, perfectly suited to chain demons to it. Wouldn't be chaos grey knights obviously, rather something chaosy sounding and using the abilities and wargear and spells of chaos demons, not grey knights.
Because, what you get is the wielder of the armor and his abilities, thus a demon, not a GK.
Seems your workaround leads nowhere...

I have no problem with someone using the GK book for a counts as force, Chaos or not, as long as the background didn't involve corrupted knights in any way, shape or form. Thousand Sons? Sure. Dark Mechanicus constructs? Great! Mentor Legion or Blood Ravens? Bring it. Spiky Grey Knights? No.

daedalus wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:the wards don't need power.


its more that the symbols channel the warps power like a wire conducts electricity.


they channel the warp power away from the armor and in ways which are damaging to entities using such energy.



the Wards are like hardware, the actual warp energy attempting to corrupt them has to try and overwhelm the wards. which would destroy the armor as the armor is completely warded, down to the atomic level.

This. I've never seen any indication that the warding needed power. Who's to say they would anyway? You don't have to power a lightning rod, nor do you need power for an old TV Tower antenna. Magnets don't need power either. There are plenty of 'forces' in the REAL world that interact with others simply due to their own properties.

And by the nature of those properties are changed by those interactions, in ways that make them require maintenance.

If it's a lightning rod or antenna, it constantly erodes; AFAIK more so when it's conducting and all them electrons are flying around.

If it's a magnet, its polarity is constantly being altered by every other magnetic field in the universe; more so when it's doing the job of pushing away another magnet.

Now, if there's a clearly stated failsafe whereby when (not if) GK equipment that has its wards succumb to entropy, then the equipment itself is rendered completely worthless, that's fair enough. Chaos using GK equip will be shelved along with Eldar-Ork crossbreeds with C'tan weapons in the 'nod politely until the over-enthusiastic fantasist finds someone else to talk at about their army' category of fanfluff. But I've had enough leaky garments and roofs to know that 'we are now completely immune to the water people's encroachments' is just asking to run into hubris.

But the fact that GK are not immune to Mind War proves that their wards are not capable of perfectly deflecting every warp-powered incursion. There's ways in, at the very least, and the act of getting in does not cause the equip to disintegrate.

lindsay40k wrote:

daedalus wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:the wards don't need power.


its more that the symbols channel the warps power like a wire conducts electricity.


they channel the warp power away from the armor and in ways which are damaging to entities using such energy.



the Wards are like hardware, the actual warp energy attempting to corrupt them has to try and overwhelm the wards. which would destroy the armor as the armor is completely warded, down to the atomic level.

This. I've never seen any indication that the warding needed power. Who's to say they would anyway? You don't have to power a lightning rod, nor do you need power for an old TV Tower antenna. Magnets don't need power either. There are plenty of 'forces' in the REAL world that interact with others simply due to their own properties.

And by the nature of those properties are changed by those interactions, in ways that make them require maintenance.

If it's a lightning rod or antenna, it constantly erodes; AFAIK more so when it's conducting and all them electrons are flying around.

If it's a magnet, its polarity is constantly being altered by every other magnetic field in the universe; more so when it's doing the job of pushing away another magnet.

Now, if there's a clearly stated failsafe whereby when (not if) GK equipment that has its wards succumb to entropy, then the equipment itself is rendered completely worthless, that's fair enough. Chaos using GK equip will be shelved along with Eldar-Ork crossbreeds with C'tan weapons in the 'nod politely until the over-enthusiastic fantasist finds someone else to talk at about their army' category of fanfluff. But I've had enough leaky garments and roofs to know that 'we are now completely immune to the water people's encroachments' is just asking to run into hubris.

But the fact that GK are not immune to Mind War proves that their wards are not capable of perfectly deflecting every warp-powered incursion. There's ways in, at the very least, and the act of getting in does not cause the equip to disintegrate.

Mind War is slightly different.

thats an outright attack that can blow past the wards, but doesn't actually break them.



trying to get a deamon to posess the armor is an entirely different ball of wax.

you actually have to go and scrub the armor clean of these wards not get around them.





it would be a pointless effort.

it would mar the armor beyond recognition(which is the point isn't it?)

and it would be incredibly difficult. why not take a regular suit of PA and posess that?



all in all, its a pointless exercise in futility. it would be done for the doing sake.

lindsay40k wrote:
And by the nature of those properties are changed by those interactions, in ways that make them require maintenance.

If it's a lightning rod or antenna, it constantly erodes; AFAIK more so when it's conducting and all them electrons are flying around.

If it's a magnet, its polarity is constantly being altered by every other magnetic field in the universe; more so when it's doing the job of pushing away another magnet.

Now, if there's a clearly stated failsafe whereby when (not if) GK equipment that has its wards succumb to entropy, then the equipment itself is rendered completely worthless, that's fair enough. Chaos using GK equip will be shelved along with Eldar-Ork crossbreeds with C'tan weapons in the 'nod politely until the over-enthusiastic fantasist finds someone else to talk at about their army' category of fanfluff. But I've had enough leaky garments and roofs to know that 'we are now completely immune to the water people's encroachments' is just asking to run into hubris.

If they're warded to the atomic level (as somebody-I forget who-said earlier), then I would think your failsafe scenario would be implicit. Perhaps not, perhaps there could need to be enough of some portion of it to be intact to keep the wards alive. But if that were the case, I'd think that "armor with holes" < "intact chaos armor".

But the fact that GK are not immune to Mind War proves that their wards are not capable of perfectly deflecting every warp-powered incursion. There's ways in, at the very least, and the act of getting in does not cause the equip to disintegrate.

Yeah, they're not immune to Gift of Chaos either, which is even more-so a warp powered incursion. At the risk of sounding obtuse, we're talking about things that affect the physical nature of the person inside the armor, not the armor or the GK's soul (or whatever passes for one in 40k). And these are game terms. There's still nothing that shows that the armor or the soul of the GK can be affected.

I like the sound of the word "anti-warding"

How about "Ward-b-Gone" spray that they just hit the armor with to remove the wards?

We could have Morgan Freeman narrate the commercial!

You're not thinking like Chaos Legionnaires! These are not in the main rational military minds that seek to make the best use of resources to maximise their military gains. They're bitter, twisted psychopaths who have sold their eternal souls to dark gods for the tiniest chance to one day spit in the eye of the corpse on the Golden Throne.

As the Emperor's life fades, let them hold up just one abomination wearing a suit of armour made by the most ingenious of his followers to be completely daemon-proof and only ever to be worn by the unshakeably pure members of the chapter supposedly founded by the Emperor's own DNA.

How many planets' worth of slave-psykers burnt out in the process of wearing away the wards would be a price worth paying for that insult? Even if it's just a hollow shell, a honeycomb of ruined metal, the look on his face as the most chaos-proof weapon is shown to him despoiled would be priceless.

Far from being a pointless exercise, when seen from the point of view some particularly bitter Warmasters it could be one's life's work and the purpose behind slave raids seeking psykers to use up.

Eh, the Emperor is nothing if not a pragmatist. He would just see that as a continuation of that particular Grey Knight's service, as a Chaos Warmaster just spent decades of resources and energy to corrupt a single suit of armor instead of burning and pillaging Imperial worlds. The Grey Knight would be remembered in the annals of the 666th Chapter as a hero who continued to vex the forces of Chaos long after death.

coolyo294 wrote:They're called the Dark Eldar.

Do you actually know anything about dark eldar

Commoragh!