Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Lord of Baal wrote:Ya maybe but in a different chapter with a different gene seed. And no that's not Heresy if a girl is their. She's a great painter. Heres a link for more pics.
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.254860204524986.73106.213120288698978

I think we all totally glossed over the fact that LoB is totally pimping out the only chick playing 40k in LA. Good work little buddy.

flota wrote:i always thought that they were 3meters tall to equal an ork, i mean after all they were desingned to fight the agile eldar and the brute ork....
well that was my impresion

I could be talking out of my ass but aren't Space Marines the product of the Unification wars, which means they were built to fight and win on Terra. I could be wrong but I remember an old marine in the First HH novel talking about stormbird operations in the Unification Wars.

ph34r wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:Ahem.

According to Blood Reaver, some of them are. You can't just throw out canon background because you don't like what it says.

The range of Space Marine height reaches at least 3 M on some occasions.

I can throw out fringe canon from a dubious and non-mainstream/acclaimed author easily. Watch me: That author has no idea what he was talking about, just like the author that wrote of Primarch Rubinek or the Iron Hearts, or the Desert Lions Legion, or the forgeworld author that wrote that a Land Raider's armor is equivalent to a Tiger II and lighter than a modern battle tank.

Not. Canon.

Sorry, no 10 foot space marines.

Bao Xishun
Robert Wadlow not enough said?

Now just take his chest, and beef it out beyond proportion to fit all the extra organs. Next, after armoring this body, the amound of weight present is such that the boots would indeed by at LEAST 6 inches tall, so as to a.) provide prottection for the wearer, and b.) provide a suitable amount of material to disperse the weight over a larger area. Add the fact that the boots have mag-clamps and other features to prevent any sort of slipping on slick surfaces, so 6 inches is not unreasonable. Then another inch or two because of the helmet, but, morei mportantly, the powerplant/backpack would stick up over the head, thus, we have 10 feet. Plop the feller into terminaydor armorz and he gets even bigger, closer to 11 feet.

might I add that this is without these two people consuming growth hormones (that we keep feeding our chickens)?

10 feet.... I agree, its massive, but not impossible. I think we are looking at a cap of 10-11 feet armored, a minimum of 7'9" armored, with average around 8'5"

poda_t wrote:Bao Xishun
Robert Wadlow not enough said?

Now just take his chest, and beef it out beyond proportion to fit all the extra organs. Next, after armoring this body, the amound of weight present is such that the boots would indeed by at LEAST 6 inches tall, so as to a.) provide prottection for the wearer, and b.) provide a suitable amount of material to disperse the weight over a larger area. Add the fact that the boots have mag-clamps and other features to prevent any sort of slipping on slick surfaces, so 6 inches is not unreasonable. Then another inch or two because of the helmet, but, morei mportantly, the powerplant/backpack would stick up over the head, thus, we have 10 feet. Plop the feller into terminaydor armorz and he gets even bigger, closer to 11 feet.

might I add that this is without these two people consuming growth hormones (that we keep feeding our chickens)?

10 feet.... I agree, its massive, but not impossible. I think we are looking at a cap of 10-11 feet armored, a minimum of 7'9" armored, with average around 8'5"

Did I ever say it would be impossible to make a 10 foot space marine?

Also you think that power armor shoes add 6 inches of height?
And you know terminator armor makes the wearer more hunched, so only ends up being slightly taller in total given the above head armor.

Why would you pull "hmm, probably an average around 8'5" " out of nowhere when absolutely zero supports that? How about the game designers themselves that say 7-8 feet?

Terminator armour makes the wearer hunched? Source?

my marines are about an inch and a half tall...
7-8 feet is my guess

ph34r wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:Ahem.

According to Blood Reaver, some of them are. You can't just throw out canon background because you don't like what it says.

The range of Space Marine height reaches at least 3 M on some occasions.

I can throw out fringe canon from a dubious and non-mainstream/acclaimed author easily. Watch me: That author has no idea what he was talking about, just like the author that wrote of Primarch Rubinek or the Iron Hearts, or the Desert Lions Legion, or the forgeworld author that wrote that a Land Raider's armor is equivalent to a Tiger II and lighter than a modern battle tank.

Not. Canon.

Sorry, no 10 foot space marines.

Um... ph34r, how is Aaron Dembski-Bowden not mainstream (within the scope of 40k) or acclaimed... He's a New York Time's Best Seller...

iproxtaco wrote:Terminator armour makes the wearer hunched? Source?

The models?

The model's can't be relied upon, because then there would be no difference between the height of a catachan, space marine, eldar or orc. It is generally accepted that eldar are taller than humans, and that space marines are bigger than necrons (which, on model scale, necron's are techincally taller, but more hunched.), and the catachan would be a more apt analogue for a space marine by virtue of muscle size

If you want to look at the terminators, and compare the human anatomy: it just doesnt work. The entire body would have to be distended to fit inside properly. Otherwise, the wearer's elbow is in the armor's shoulder joint, and the knees are in the hips.

The old models were MUCH better in this regard, however, they have been replaced....

Another example I have is the Ultramarines series of books. One of the characters is so massive the armory had to take a damaged suit of terminator armor, hollow it out some more from the inside and repair it into a power-armor suit because it was the only thing large enough to fit that marine.

I'm also going to go there and pull the Master chief Vs. Space marine analogy. McChief is 7 feet something tall and 450 kilos, and he doesn't have any of the kind of implants a SM has. SMs have extra organs planted into their chest cavity, but there is simply no room in there. If you only make the chest more massive, you are putting heavy strain across the entire body, miraculous strength or no. So as one thing gets bigger, everything else must follow suit. If McChief can be a scalar reference, a SM would have to be 8 feet tall and weigh near 500 kilos on average

Someone wrote rules for him!Wait 2 minuter 'till I find his name.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pasenus Lysane!

Here is the link to that rules proposal.


http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/388764.page

If Aaron Dembski-Bowden isn't considered canon by some people, I think appealing to the Proposed Rules forum is completely out of the question.

Monster Rain wrote:If Aaron Dembski-Bowden isn't considered canon by some people, I think appealing to the Proposed Rules forum is completely out of the question.

Didn't you know that all Black Library Novels are ghost written by Matt Ward.

NOOOOOOOOOO!SAY IT AIN'T SO!

This is confusing, stay on topic.

FearPeteySodes wrote:I don't think you guys are taking gravity in effect. Obviously the original Space Marines were created at 8 feet but when you take in zero gravity that could easily make them 12 feet over several long campaigns in space.

Battle Barges have artificial gravity, so I don't know what zero-g has to do with anything at all. Plus, if they spent enough time in zero-g to affect their height, it would also affect their muscle and bone strength.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ph34r wrote:I can throw out fringe canon from a dubious and non-mainstream/acclaimed author easily. Watch me: That author has no idea what he was talking about

If we're throwing out ADB, then we must discount everything from the Black Library. His "40K mainstream" status is on par with Ben Counter and Dan Abnett, and he's a better writer than Counter.

Alfndrate wrote:Um... ph34r, how is Aaron Dembski-Bowden not mainstream (within the scope of 40k) or acclaimed... He's a New York Time's Best Seller...

Yeah, in terms of 40k knowledge. He is not an authority on it in any way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Omegus wrote:

ph34r wrote:I can throw out fringe canon from a dubious and non-mainstream/acclaimed author easily. Watch me: That author has no idea what he was talking about

If we're throwing out ADB, then we must discount everything from the Black Library. His "40K mainstream" status is on par with Ben Counter and Dan Abnett, and he's a better writer than Counter.

If a black library author puts something in a book that explicitly contradicts what the game designers have said, that is a goof on their part.


Do you disagree with this? Basically the only way you can think I am wrong logically is to think that black library authors are allowed to supersede and replace 40k statistics explicitly put in place by the game's designers. Which is so dumb that surely we must have some sort of misunderstanding.

To be an authority on 40k fluff, your understanding will have to take his writings into account.

Black Library authors have more credibility on the subject than some dude on the internet, unfortunately.

Monster Rain wrote:If Aaron Dembski-Bowden isn't considered canon by some people, I think appealing to the Proposed Rules forum is completely out of the question.

If you think an author mistakenly misrepresenting a fact because he couldn't be bothered to look it up makes that mistake true, then I don't think you are quite ready for the great wide world of books.

ph34r wrote:Do you disagree with this? Basically the only way you can think I am wrong logically is to think that black library authors are allowed to supersede and replace 40k statistics explicitly put in place by the game's designers. Which is so dumb that surely we must have some sort of misunderstanding.

Game mechanics are much different than the fluff, otherwise 5 space marines would win every game.

ph34r wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:If Aaron Dembski-Bowden isn't considered canon by some people, I think appealing to the Proposed Rules forum is completely out of the question.

If you think an author mistakenly misrepresenting a fact because he couldn't be bothered to look it up makes that mistake true, then I don't think you are quite ready for the great wide world of books.

What you're doing here is attacking the source of evidence that is damning to your case, and you're doing it in a manner that is actually attacking me instead of the subject matter which is pretty poor debating form.

What you need to do is come up with something that says that BL isn't canon, and you'll be on your way.

Monster Rain wrote:To be an authority on 40k fluff, your understanding will have to take his writings into account.

Black Library authors have more credibility on the subject than some dude on the internet, unfortunately.

Too bad the fact that Jes Goodwin's authority overrides a BL author's authority has zero reliance on my having read every BL book.

Do you think it does somehow?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Monster Rain wrote:

ph34r wrote:Do you disagree with this? Basically the only way you can think I am wrong logically is to think that black library authors are allowed to supersede and replace 40k statistics explicitly put in place by the game's designers. Which is so dumb that surely we must have some sort of misunderstanding.

Game mechanics are much different than the fluff, otherwise 5 space marines would win every game.

I have never referenced game mechanics at all.

You seem confused and lost.

ph34r wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:To be an authority on 40k fluff, your understanding will have to take his writings into account.

Black Library authors have more credibility on the subject than some dude on the internet, unfortunately.

Too bad the fact that Jes Goodwin's authority overrides a BL author's authority has zero reliance on my having read every BL book.

Do you think it does somehow?

Jes Goodwin, the guy who's hand-drawn picture puts a space marine at 8 feet? Whose side are you arguing?

ph34r wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

ph34r wrote:Do you disagree with this? Basically the only way you can think I am wrong logically is to think that black library authors are allowed to supersede and replace 40k statistics explicitly put in place by the game's designers. Which is so dumb that surely we must have some sort of misunderstanding.

Game mechanics are much different than the fluff, otherwise 5 space marines would win every game.

I have never referenced game mechanics at all.

You seem confused and lost.

You said "game designers" and referenced "statistics." That implies that you are referring to game mechanics.

If I am confused, it's because you aren't being clear in the points that you're making. Keep it up with the ad hominem stuff though, it makes your position look that much weaker.

Monster Rain wrote:

ph34r wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:If Aaron Dembski-Bowden isn't considered canon by some people, I think appealing to the Proposed Rules forum is completely out of the question.

If you think an author mistakenly misrepresenting a fact because he couldn't be bothered to look it up makes that mistake true, then I don't think you are quite ready for the great wide world of books.

What you're doing here is attacking the source of evidence that is damning to your case, and you're doing it in a manner that is actually attacking me instead of the subject matter which is pretty poor debating form.

What you need to do is come up with something that says that BL isn't canon, and you'll be on your way.

If you think that everything that a Black Library writer comes up with is of the same level of Canon as the actual writers of Warhammer 40,000, then you are deluded and removed from reality, and I must remind you that you share a minority opinion on this subject. I also laugh at you because in your vision of 40k, marines bray, wield multilasers, and children destroy falcons. And there are 10 foot space marines


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Monster Rain wrote:You said "game designers" and referenced "statistics." That implies that you are referring to game mechanics.

If I am confused, it's because you aren't being clear in the points that you're making. Keep it up with the ad hominem stuff though, it makes your position look that much weaker.

No, it doesn't. The 40k universe has statistics, like space marines being 8 feet tall and not 10. This is just like how in the real world, if I say something is a statistic, I am not referring to football.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Monster Rain wrote:

ph34r wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:To be an authority on 40k fluff, your understanding will have to take his writings into account.

Black Library authors have more credibility on the subject than some dude on the internet, unfortunately.

Too bad the fact that Jes Goodwin's authority overrides a BL author's authority has zero reliance on my having read every BL book.

Do you think it does somehow?

Jes Goodwin, the guy who's hand-drawn picture puts a space marine at 8 feet? Whose side are you arguing?

You said I wasn't an authority on 40k fluff because I hadn't read the 10 foot space marine book.

I said it didn't matter because Jes Goodwin says I'm right anyway.


Does that make sense to you?

ph34r wrote:[And there are 10 foot space marines

Yeah, there definitely are. And not just in A D-B's writing.

ph34r wrote:You said I wasn't an authority on 40k fluff because I hadn't read the 10 foot space marine book.

I said it didn't matter because Jes Goodwin says I'm right anyway.


Does that make sense to you?

Jes Goodwin actually don't say you're right. And if you haven't read certain books, then you aren't by definition an "authority" on 40k Fluff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ph34r wrote:No, it doesn't. The 40k universe has statistics, like space marines being 8 feet tall and not 10. This is just like how in the real world, if I say something is a statistic, I am not referring to football.

The context that we are discussing this in is a game. You know this.

Monster Rain wrote:Jes Goodwin actually don't say you're right. And if you haven't read certain books, then you aren't by definition an "authority" on 40k Fluff.

Well, there's a picture, and it is marked to 8 feet. I don't know how much more explicit you can get. I really don't care if I'm an 8 foot marine authority, because Jes has all the authority I need.

If you can find me a source on 10 foot marines that is from someone with the same level of control as Jes, then I will believe you.


***EDIT: 8 foot or 7 foot, whatever you interpret Jes's picture to mean. Just not 10 foot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Monster Rain wrote:

ph34r wrote:No, it doesn't. The 40k universe has statistics, like space marines being 8 feet tall and not 10. This is just like how in the real world, if I say something is a statistic, I am not referring to football.

The context that we are discussing this in is a game. You know this.

If the words "game designer" and "statistics" make you forget that you are in a fluff discussion and think somehow with no other suggestion that we have shifted gear to comparing in game characteristics, then I am sorry for confusing you.s

Ah, well said.
Well said

ph34r wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:Jes Goodwin actually don't say you're right. And if you haven't read certain books, then you aren't by definition an "authority" on 40k Fluff.

Well, there's a picture, and it is marked to 8 feet. I don't know how much more explicit you can get. I really don't care if I'm an 8 foot marine authority, because Jes has all the authority I need.

If you can find me a source on 10 foot marines that is from with the same level of control as Jes, then I will believe you.

I think you've completely lost track of the conversation.

No one is saying that "all" space marines are 10 feet tall. I would say, like Jes Goodwin, that the majority are somewhere in the neighborhood of 8 feet tall. You said that there "are no 10 foot tall space marines" or something similar, and you're flat out wrong based on the writings of more than one canon-recognized author.

Monster Rain wrote:No one is saying that "all" space marines are 10 feet tall. I would say, like Jes Goodwin, that the majority are somewhere in the neighborhood of 8 feet tall. You said that there "are no 10 foot tall space marines" or something similar, and you're flat out wrong based on the writings of more than one canon-recognized author.

So do you believe that all 40k fluff should be treated with equal levels of "contextually correct" judgment? All 40k fluff is equally valid in your eyes? Do authors never make mistakes?

ph34r wrote:So do you believe that all 40k fluff should be treated with equal levels of "contextually correct" judgment? All 40k fluff is equally valid in your eyes?

Do the people who make up the made up stuff in a Space Manz game have more authority than some dude on the internet?

Yes. Yes they do.

ph34r wrote:So Do authors never make mistakes?

You're grasping at straws.

If your argument depends on more than one canon author being wrong, it's time to let it go.

Monster Rain wrote:

ph34r wrote:So do you believe that all 40k fluff should be treated with equal levels of "contextually correct" judgment? All 40k fluff is equally valid in your eyes?

Do the people who make up the made up stuff in a Space Manz game have more authority than some dude on the internet?

Yes. Yes they do.

ph34r wrote:So Do authors never make mistakes?

You're grasping at straws.

If your argument depends on more than one canon author being wrong, it's time to let it go.

I'm grasping at straws? You literally did not answer a single one of my last post's questions. If you can't come up with an answer to them that satisfies you, just concede the argument; it is becoming more and more clear that you cannot decide on this matter of validity/invalidity of fluff for yourself.

ph34r wrote:I'm grasping at straws? You literally did not answer a single one of my last post's questions. If you can't come up with an answer to them that satisfies you, just concede the argument; it is becoming more and more clear that you cannot decide on this matter of validity/invalidity of fluff for yourself.

I've made it abundantly clear. I'm not going to repeat myself to someone who isn't reading what I've posted in the first place.

Monster Rain wrote:

ph34r wrote:I'm grasping at straws? You literally did not answer a single one of my last post's questions. If you can't come up with an answer to them that satisfies you, just concede the argument; it is becoming more and more clear that you cannot decide on this matter of validity/invalidity of fluff for yourself.

I've made it abundantly clear. I'm not going to repeat myself to someone who isn't reading what I've posted in the first place.

Ah, the classic "I'm not going to repeat myself/I don't have time to explain/If you can't find the quote in the last 5 pages I'm not going to point it out to you" internet argument fallacy. You make me smile