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Heh.

The old "I'm going to ignore your points and ask your inane and unrelated questions over and over again" internet argument fallacy. Classic.

If you don't know what the answers to the questions you asked are, it's because you aren't paying attention. Period. Also, I'm done being trolled. Enjoy the last word.

Nobody is fooled here. If you answered those questions you would reveal your cognitive dissonance in that you agree with me on them, yet still think me to be wrong due to non-logical reasons.

I don't think you are even fooling yourself.

I had addressed every point and question you have made, yet you cannot say the same for yourself. You failed to make your argument and you look embarrassing trying to back out with your pride intact.

Also, reported for calling me a troll.

But, you have clearly gone and said "there are no 10 foot space marines", and thereafter, you mentioned that you didn't rule out the odd colossal 10-foot space marine, so you are doing poorly for sticking to your own argument. [assuming of course, that you do not go back and edit what you wrote]

I have also as yet not seen you present your sources, you keep mentioning Jes Goodwin.

As far as I can tell, the only input Jes has had is as a sculptor, then take into consideration that if IG represent the average height for a human, which is apparently, 5'9 according to canon, and the models are identically sized with space marines, you can throw another wrench in with tau, which are a head shorter than the IG, yet, on average 5'5"? The models are just representations, and nothing more.

Disregarding material just because it's not "canon" is ludicrous. GW has put its seal of approval on it... Fanfiction vs. published fiction makes a huge difference, because of GW's seal of approval, either explicit, or implicit, makes anything produced by BL a source of legitimate information. the Inquisitor war trilogy is an example of literature I hate, and loathe, and as far as I can tell, GW tried to bury that thing. Sadly, it still informs our current 40k universe...

Mr. Goodwin may also at some point have a falling out with GW, or vice versa, and then, *shudder* may we be preserved if they let ward have another pass... ... but if he no longer has any input, now we will have someone else making the design choices. I don't think going by art or sculpts is a fair assessment, because its always a mm here or mm there, and suddenly were talking a different scale. I've noticed discrepancies in arm sizes as well or arm reaches based just on the pose of the arm.

I however, am taking the approach of what a space marine is supposed to be, after all those genetic enhancements, and what else he needs, and what must be done to the body to accomodate all the extra crap put into it. Canon might say one thing, but i am trying to break it down according to reason.

You want marines to have 1-inch or less armored sole-boots? Fine. I insist that every marine also suffers horrendously upon walking into a mine-field. The reason I insist on boots being 6 inches because a.) they are armored, b.1) they have activateable mag-clamps, which says to me electro-magnet, and b.2) it must be of sufficient strength to keep all estimated 500Kg of marine firmly rooted c.) some sort of anti-slip tech that also needs to be incorporated. d.) the usual hardware and stabilizers for what power armor is supposed to do. and e.) need to disperse the wight of the marine. If we accept my estimate of a marine weighing 500 kilos armored~~1100LBS, then we need to account for the marine being able to disperse the weight and avoid sinking six feet into Davin's swampy marshes. It's hard to have a horus heresy if all of the marines drowned on account of a lack of weight dispersal. And don't you go telling me that a micro-nuclear reactor powering a suit with integrated air system, communications array, IR/NVG, targeter systems and all sorts of other helmet/collar hardware, servo-skeleton and heavy armor, along with weapons and ammunition, don't add up to 300~~350 kilo....

I'm reading canon and fluff, and seeing all of the crap that goes in, then trying to find the reasonable expectation of size.

poda_t wrote:But, you have clearly gone and said "there are no 10 foot space marines", and thereafter, you mentioned that you didn't rule out the odd colossal 10-foot space marine, so you are doing poorly for sticking to your own argument. [assuming of course, that you do not go back and edit what you wrote]

I have also as yet not seen you present your sources, you keep mentioning Jes Goodwin.

As far as I can tell, the only input Jes has had is as a sculptor, then take into consideration that if IG represent the average height for a human, which is apparently, 5'9 according to canon, and the models are identically sized with space marines, you can throw another wrench in with tau, which are a head shorter than the IG, yet, on average 5'5"? The models are just representations, and nothing more.

Disregarding material just because it's not "canon" is ludicrous. GW has put its seal of approval on it... Fanfiction vs. published fiction makes a huge difference, because of GW's seal of approval, either explicit, or implicit. That makes it a valid source.

Mr. Goodwin may also at some point have a falling out with GW, or vice versa, and then, *shudder* may we be preserved if they let ward have another pass...

I however, am taking the approach of what a space marine is supposed to be, after all those genetic enhancements, and what else he needs, and what must be done to the body to accomodate all the extra crap put into it. Canon might say one thing, but i am trying to break it down according to reason.

You want marines to have 1-inch or less armored sole-boots? Fine. I insist that every marine also suffers horrendously upon walking into a mine-field. The reason I insist on boots being 6 inches because a.) they are armored, b.1) they have activateable mag-clamps, which says to me electro-magnet, and b.2) it must be of sufficient strength to keep all estimated 500Kg of marine firmly rooted c.) some sort of anti-slip tech that also needs to be incorporated. d.) the usual hardware and stabilizers for what power armor is supposed to do. and e.) need to disperse the wight of the marine. If we accept my estimate of a marine weighing 500 kilos armored~~1100LBS, then we need to account for the marine being able to disperse the weight and avoid sinking six feet into Davin's swampy marshes. It's hard to have a horus heresy if all of the marines drowned on account of a lack of weight dispersal. And don't you go telling me that a micro-nuclear reactor powering a suit with integrated air system, communications array, IR/NVG, targeter systems and all sorts of other helmet/collar hardware, servo-skeleton and heavy armor, along with weapons and ammunition, don't add up to 300~~350 kilo....

I'm reading canon and fluff, and seeing all of the crap that goes in, then trying to find the reasonable expectation of size.

A well reasoned argument, but I disagree:

If a normal marine is 7' out of armor, up to 8' in armor, how can you have a 10 foot marine? Anyone that was naturally that much larger would be a mutant or aberration, unable to survive in a society let alone be in the top 1% of people to go through the trials to become a space marine. Anyone that was transformed to be that large by the marine process would be again, a mutant or aberration, killed summarily as one that failed the transformation.

The models are not in scale in the wargame, to think so would present too many problems.

poda_t wrote:Disregarding material just because it's not "canon" is ludicrous. GW has put its seal of approval on it... Fanfiction vs. published fiction makes a huge difference, because of GW's seal of approval, either explicit, or implicit. That makes it a valid source.

Obviously the book with 10 foot marines is "canon", but only as secret chaos eldar or braying marines or kids destroying falcons with rocks or marines with multilasers everywhere. We know there is a line that must be drawn, and 10 foot marines are definitely beyond that line. There is no way for them to exist in background, and the background before their "creation" makes them impossible by definition.

poda_t wrote:The reason I insist on boots being 6 inches because a.) they are armored, b.1) they have activateable mag-clamps, which says to me electro-magnet, and b.2) it must be of sufficient strength to keep all estimated 500Kg of marine firmly rooted c.) some sort of anti-slip tech that also needs to be incorporated. d.) the usual hardware and stabilizers for what power armor is supposed to do. and e.) need to disperse the wight of the marine. If we accept my estimate of a marine weighing 500 kilos armored~~1100LBS, then we need to account for the marine being able to disperse the weight and avoid sinking six feet into Davin's swampy marshes. It's hard to have a horus heresy if all of the marines drowned on account of a lack of weight dispersal. And don't you go telling me that a micro-nuclear reactor powering a suit with integrated air system, communications array, IR/NVG, targeter systems and all sorts of other helmet/collar hardware, servo-skeleton and heavy armor, along with weapons and ammunition, don't add up to 300~~350 kilo....

a.) marines are armored all over themselves, it's called armor.
b.1) magnets in 40k have no set size, in fact there exist mag-clamps in imperial navy suits which definitely are not 6 inches large.
b.2) marine armor is self supporting, like full plate but even more so.
c.) it's called tread/soles, they are not 6" thick, we even have them on modern day shoes.
d.) this is all over the armor everywhere, and again, definitely not 6" thick
e.) this has everything to do with the width of the boot and zero to do with the height, see high heels

poda_t wrote:I have also as yet not seen you present your sources, you keep mentioning Jes Goodwin.

I'm gonna chip in here as this is one of the topics that I believe to be affected by a ton of community hearsay and "false facts":

This lifesize(!) drawing has been created by Jes for GW's Inquisitor RPG. The scale should obviously start at 1 instead of 2 (which Jes also clarifies in a later podcast), so here you have the average Space Marine in power armour ticking in at a height of seven feet.
And here you have GW's Design podcast with Jes Goodwin where he talks about this and also jokes about the silliness of oversized novel Marines.

In addition to this, I would also suggest keeping in mind that Space Marines use a certain amount of equipment that has obviously been designed for normal-sized humans, such as the Rhino APC. It would quite simply be real awkward to have Megamarines unable to board their own transports or traverse Imperial bunkers due to a needlessly exaggerated height whose only basis is some BL author's individual interpretation and artistic license, the wishful thinking of a segment of the fanbase, and some people's idea that for some reason "bigger = cooler", never mind the consequences.

poda_t wrote:Disregarding material just because it's not "canon" is ludicrous. GW has put its seal of approval on it... Fanfiction vs. published fiction makes a huge difference, because of GW's seal of approval, either explicit, or implicit, makes anything produced by BL a source of legitimate information. the Inquisitor war trilogy is an example of literature I hate, and loathe, and as far as I can tell, GW tried to bury that thing. Sadly, it still informs our current 40k universe...

Actually ... if you'd read through various statements of the people who truly work on this material, you could easily dismiss that Inquisition War trilogy that you "hate and loathe" from your perception.

Good facts Lynata. It is comforting to know that the problems caused by BL's disparate fluff has been addressed thoroughly in the past.

poda_t wrote:
If you want to look at the terminators, and compare the human anatomy: it just doesnt work. The entire body would have to be distended to fit inside properly. Otherwise, the wearer's elbow is in the armor's shoulder joint, and the knees are in the hips.

I always assumed the arms of the marine and most of their legs are in the torso. Terminator armor is driven, not worn.

ph34r wrote:Too bad the fact that Jes Goodwin's authority overrides a BL author's authority has zero reliance on my having read every BL book.

Jes Goodwin has no more authority than a BL writer. He's a model sculptor, not a game designer. And anyway, the "real" game designers of 40K have long since left the company. Now there are just left-overs like Thorpe (blargh) and Jervis (blergh), as well as new hires in the shape of Ward, et. al. In such an environment, ADB is as "mainstream" as anyone.

Now, I also think Space Marines fall roughly in the 7-8 foot category, but that doesn't mean there can't be outliers.

Omegus wrote:

ph34r wrote:Too bad the fact that Jes Goodwin's authority overrides a BL author's authority has zero reliance on my having read every BL book.

Jes Goodwin has no more authority than a BL writer. He's a model sculptor, not a game designer. And anyway, the "real" game designers of 40K have long since left the company. Now there are just left-overs like Thorpe (blargh) and Jervis (blergh), as well as new hires in the shape of Ward, et. al. In such an environment, ADB is as "mainstream" as anyone.

Considering he is in charge of everything having to do with how space marines look, I would say it is well within the realms of reasoning to say that he determined their fluff height. I am content to ignore the low research effort/low quality of writing/multilasers 40k writers, as it should be.

Omegus wrote:Now, I also think Space Marines fall roughly in the 7-8 foot category, but that doesn't mean there can't be outliers.

Space marine candidates are all outliers. They are strong, smart, tough outliers, not freakishly tall and gangly outliers that would die naturally, be executed as mutants, or be outcast for their freakishness.

The mega-tall are not space marine candidates.

To be fair, some normal humans are 4 feet tall, and some are 8 feet tall, so I think there would be plenty of change between individual Marines surely?

Yao Ming plays pro basketball and he is a 7 foot 6 Chinese guy, and they are generally shorter than Europeans.

So I dont think there is a solid answer, the best thing to say is probably just "A foot or two taller than normal people"

mattyrm wrote: To be fair, some normal humans are 4 feet tall, and some are 8 feet tall, so I think there would be plenty of change between individual Marines surely?

Yao Ming plays pro basketball and he is a 7 foot 6 Chinese guy, and they are generally shorter than Europeans.

So I dont think there is a solid answer, the best thing to say is probably just "A foot or two taller than normal people"

I'd hardly call those "normal"... and besides, what do the marines have to gain in making a Yao Ming even bigger? Space Marines have armor that does a bulk of their physical power, I feel like in gaining that much height you might even lose power, not to mention how impractical it would be for one single marine to be 2 feet higher than the others. He couldn't even fit in a drop pod or rhino.

40K is a universe of gigantism.

The IoM is the most powerful and important "realm" because it is the largest, not because it is the best organised or richest.

Imperial navy ships are the best because they are the biggest. Their weapons are physically larger and more powerful than anything, which makes them better.

The IG is powerful because of numbers, not because of skill or quality.

This principle even extends to the size of the uniforms, e.g. pauldrons, coats and hats.

It's unthinkable in such a universe that the most supreme, elite superhuman supersoldiers would be only slightly taller than modern day "guards" soldiers.

Lynata wrote:Actually ... if you'd read through various statements of the people who truly work on this material, you could easily dismiss that Inquisition War trilogy that you "hate and loathe" from your perception.

First of all, let me say that I'd already read this thread thread that you link to and think that you did some pretty impressive work compiling those quotes and I thought that you had some interesting things to say there.

Here's the thing, though. To me, the main point of the whole thing was that there really is no canon, and to ignore the BL or even the Codex if you agree with it is perfectly fine. If that's the case, then since there is no binding and official canon, who is to say who is right or wrong? Particularly when it isn't said that you have to or should ignore the things that you don't like, simply that you can.

Not that it matters in the grand scheme, since we're talking about fictional things in a fictional setting.

Monster Rain wrote:
Not that it matters in the grand scheme, since we're talking about fictional things in a fictional setting.

True that.

Kilkrazy wrote:
It's unthinkable in such a universe that the most supreme, elite superhuman supersoldiers would be only slightly taller than modern day "guards" soldiers.

16 inches (the difference between 7 feet and average height) is not slightly taller.

Kilkrazy wrote:Imperial navy ships are the best because they are the biggest. Their weapons are physically larger and more powerful than anything, which makes them better.

Imperial Navy ships are vastly inferior to Necron ships, with smaller Necron ships easily able to take out larger Imperial ones.

I'm just saying.

Well,that is because they have better tech,that the IoM hasn't encountered yet,so can't defend against is.

ph34r wrote:

Omegus wrote:

ph34r wrote:Too bad the fact that Jes Goodwin's authority overrides a BL author's authority has zero reliance on my having read every BL book.

Jes Goodwin has no more authority than a BL writer. He's a model sculptor, not a game designer. And anyway, the "real" game designers of 40K have long since left the company. Now there are just left-overs like Thorpe (blargh) and Jervis (blergh), as well as new hires in the shape of Ward, et. al. In such an environment, ADB is as "mainstream" as anyone.

Considering he is in charge of everything having to do with how space marines look, I would say it is well within the realms of reasoning to say that he determined their fluff height. I am content to ignore the low research effort/low quality of writing/multilasers 40k writers, as it should be.

Source? He is a model sculptor, what the models look like has nothing to do with what things actually look like in the fluff, sorry. Otherwise, the average Catachan has a bigger bicep circumference than a Space Marine in full power armor.

ph34r wrote:

Omegus wrote:Now, I also think Space Marines fall roughly in the 7-8 foot category, but that doesn't mean there can't be outliers.

Space marine candidates are all outliers. They are strong, smart, tough outliers, not freakishly tall and gangly outliers that would die naturally, be executed as mutants, or be outcast for their freakishness.

The mega-tall are not space marine candidates.

Yes, all the big NFL and NBA guys who approach or even crest 7' tall are all gangly freaks that are ostracised by society at large. You're being ridiculous. In a lot of the savage societies the Space Marines recruit from, a particularly tall candidate would likely have the muscle and strength to go along with his stature and if anything, would be a stronger candidate. And then there are the variations on how the gene-seed affects each candidate. Hell, even if we just look at the gene-seed induced growth spurt as a fixed percentage:

Average male in the United States today: 5'9"
Average Space Marine: 7'6"
That's a 30.4% increase in base height.

Average center in an NBA team: 6'10" to 7'2", let's just split the difference and say 7'. Add 30.4% to that, and now you have someone over 9' tall. Take an unusually tall person like the wrestlers Ikuzuki Geitazaemon or Jorge González, or the taller basketball players like Yao Ming or George Bell, and add the same % growth to them, and you're easily approaching 10', especially if you add a few inches for armor.

Really, I don't understand why you are being so obtuse on this point. Quite a few Black Library authors have had a particularly large Space Marine character pop up in their stories. As I just demonstrated, these are all within the range of reason and do not contradict the game material. You can invoke Jes Goodwin all you want, but I don't think he'd agree with your dogmatic opinion either. Is it that you're insecure about your own height that you rage against even fictional tall people? Sorry if that last comment can be construed as ad hominem, but that's what you've been doing to Monster Rain this whole thread.

Durza wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Terminator armour makes the wearer hunched? Source?

The models?

How is that a source? I have a Terminator right here, half assembled, there's really no way you say they're hunched over when looking at them. In fact, considering the head without a helmet is place as if his body is straight, I'd say it's a source that tells us the opposite. Saying that, the models aren't to scale, so I'd dismiss it regardless.

Omegus wrote:

ph34r wrote:The mega-tall are not space marine candidates.

Yes, all the big NFL and NBA guys who approach or even crest 7' tall are all gangly freaks that are ostracised by society at large. You're being ridiculous. In a lot of the savage societies the Space Marines recruit from, a particularly tall candidate would likely have the muscle and strength to go along with his stature and if anything, would be a stronger candidate. And then there are the variations on how the gene-seed affects each candidate. Hell, even if we just look at the gene-seed induced growth spurt as a fixed percentage:

Average male in the United States today: 5'9"
Average Space Marine: 7'6"
That's a 30.4% increase in base height.

Average center in an NBA team: 6'10" to 7'2", let's just split the difference and say 7'. Add 30.4% to that, and now you have someone over 9' tall. Take an unusually tall person like the wrestlers Ikuzuki Geitazaemon or Jorge González, or the taller basketball players like Yao Ming or George Bell, and add the same % growth to them, and you're easily approaching 10', especially if you add a few inches for armor.

Really, I don't understand why you are being so obtuse on this point. Quite a few Black Library authors have had a particularly large Space Marine character pop up in their stories. As I just demonstrated, these are all within the range of reason and do not contradict the game material. You can invoke Jes Goodwin all you want, but I don't think he'd agree with your dogmatic opinion either. Is it that you're insecure about your own height that you rage against even fictional tall people? Sorry if that last comment can be construed as ad hominem, but that's what you've been doing to Monster Rain this whole thread.

Again, that is all well and good, as I am sure tallness did not die out in the year 40,000, but why make a ridiculously tall person into a space marine? You gain nothing, yet you lose the ability for them to board any transport, drop pod, walk through spaceship corridors, wear power armor, or be an even mildly stealthy scout. Space Marines don't have to make dunks, they do not gain worth by default for being taller and taller.


Also, you seem to forget that being tall has in fact health RISKS associated with it. Why use your super rare enhancement process on someone with a weaker than average spine? Space Marines are recruited from the best of the best, not the tallest of the tallest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:

Durza wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Terminator armour makes the wearer hunched? Source?

The models?

How is that a source? I have a Terminator right here, half assembled, there's really no way you say they're hunched over when looking at them. In fact, considering the head without a helmet is place as if his body is straight, I'd say it's a source that tells us the opposite. Saying that, the models aren't to scale, so I'd dismiss it regardless.

Maybe you are new to 40k, but it is a long standing joke about how horribly hunched over terminators are. Their shoulder joints are parallel with their heads. The new models are slightly less bad, but they are still a fair amount hunched.

ph34r wrote:Again, that is all well and good, as I am sure tallness did not die out in the year 40,000, but why make a ridiculously tall person into a space marine? You gain nothing, yet you lose the ability for them to board any transport, drop pod, walk through spaceship corridors, wear power armor, or be an even mildly stealthy scout. Space Marines don't have to make dunks, they do not gain worth by default for being taller and taller.

You gain strength, weapon reach and length of stride. The Space Marines are already far too large to be even "mildly stealthy", at that point it's all training and technology that makes them ghosts. Everything in 40K is on a massive grand scale, why would you assume that any Space Marine in power armor would be almost brushing his head on the bulkhead? It may be a little cramped for some of these guys in your average Rhino transport, but it's not like shoving Yao Ming in a Honda Civic.

Also, you seem to forget that being tall has in fact health RISKS associated with it. Why use your super rare enhancement process on someone with a weaker than average spine? Space Marines are recruited from the best of the best, not the tallest of the tallest.

Now your argument has become REALLY thin. Given the technology of the 41st millenium, not to mention the potency of the gene-seed itself, any health risks due to being taller than average (which are really only prominent when it's a hormonal imbalance/gigantism) would simply not apply. I'm pretty sure living on an irradiated planet is a pretty significant health risk, yet Blood Angels recruit among them anyway. I'm pretty sure a little hypertension is not an insurmountable obstacle.

Again, your whole argument has boiled down to "there are no tall Space Marines because I said so, and my only source is a single drawing by Goodwin that displays a frightening lack of grasp of scale."

Monster Rain wrote:Here's the thing, though. To me, the main point of the whole thing was that there really is no canon, and to ignore the BL or even the Codex if you agree with it is perfectly fine. If that's the case, then since there is no binding and official canon, who is to say who is right or wrong? Particularly when it isn't said that you have to or should ignore the things that you don't like, simply that you can.

Oh, that I can understand. Truth be told, I'm still trying to figure that out for myself - even though I would still argue that studio material would be a more reliable source if you want to stay compliant to future readings (a la "GW knows best what GW wants"), they did retcon a lot of stuff in the past and generally have a notably more "relaxed" stance on the whole issue of consistency than us "canon fanatics", which is quite ironic if you think about it.

What personally bothers me is just when some people do claim stuff like 9+ feet Marines as "canon" when GW obviously thinks differently. Maybe there is no canon - but if there is, then it is GW who makes it, not some freelancing BL author with his personal preferences.
In most cases, such claims are only the result of the numerous varying interpretations in licensed material coupled with having missed out on GW's actual stance, though, as well as community hearsay. "poster X said it and everyone agreed so it must be true!"

Omegus wrote:He is a model sculptor, what the models look like has nothing to do with what things actually look like in the fluff, sorry.

Take a wild guess why they bothered with a lifesize drawing - and a Rhino's height is still in the fluff as well. Also, Jes Goodwin is one of the very few people who have shaped the very style of the entire setting, he is not just some random sculptor. That said, if you do have any studio fluff contradicting the position of this GW designer, feel free to share. I doubt you have, though.
Honestly, listen to the podcast. Jes' explanation is quite eye-opening, I think. And not as "derogatory" to the precious Astartes as you seem to believe.

Omegus wrote:Is it that you're insecure about your own height that you rage against even fictional tall people?

Wow.

I feel tempted to point out that it would be quite easy to turn this theory around and aim that bullet at all the people so "obtusely" clinging to oversized Marines when GW designers have already said "lolno". There must be a reason for why people so desperately wish for it to be different, right?

ph34r wrote:

Omegus wrote:

ph34r wrote:The mega-tall are not space marine candidates.

Yes, all the big NFL and NBA guys who approach or even crest 7' tall are all gangly freaks that are ostracised by society at large. You're being ridiculous. In a lot of the savage societies the Space Marines recruit from, a particularly tall candidate would likely have the muscle and strength to go along with his stature and if anything, would be a stronger candidate. And then there are the variations on how the gene-seed affects each candidate. Hell, even if we just look at the gene-seed induced growth spurt as a fixed percentage:

Average male in the United States today: 5'9"
Average Space Marine: 7'6"
That's a 30.4% increase in base height.

Average center in an NBA team: 6'10" to 7'2", let's just split the difference and say 7'. Add 30.4% to that, and now you have someone over 9' tall. Take an unusually tall person like the wrestlers Ikuzuki Geitazaemon or Jorge González, or the taller basketball players like Yao Ming or George Bell, and add the same % growth to them, and you're easily approaching 10', especially if you add a few inches for armor.

Really, I don't understand why you are being so obtuse on this point. Quite a few Black Library authors have had a particularly large Space Marine character pop up in their stories. As I just demonstrated, these are all within the range of reason and do not contradict the game material. You can invoke Jes Goodwin all you want, but I don't think he'd agree with your dogmatic opinion either. Is it that you're insecure about your own height that you rage against even fictional tall people? Sorry if that last comment can be construed as ad hominem, but that's what you've been doing to Monster Rain this whole thread.

Again, that is all well and good, as I am sure tallness did not die out in the year 40,000, but why make a ridiculously tall person into a space marine? You gain nothing, yet you lose the ability for them to board any transport, drop pod, walk through spaceship corridors, wear power armor, or be an even mildly stealthy scout. Space Marines don't have to make dunks, they do not gain worth by default for being taller and taller.


Also, you seem to forget that being tall has in fact health RISKS associated with it. Why use your super rare enhancement process on someone with a weaker than average spine? Space Marines are recruited from the best of the best, not the tallest of the tallest.

Out of universe theoretically speaking, no, nothing really is gained with height except mass without being fat, but even then with their armour I doubt a Space Marine needs mass. It may have something to do with taller subjects being more athletic, have more muscle mass, and are generally more impressive figures. The best of the best is never going to be determined by height, but I'd still put my money on a taller candidate. Their augments increase their height, so an already tall aspirant is going to get even taller, and there's likely to be a high percentage of 'tall' applicants, hence why most Marines are silly tall.
It's more likely to do with the Hero image. What looks more impressive for a defender of humanity, a 5 8" guy in power armour, or an 8 6" guy in power armour? I prefer the latter, makes them seem more heroic.

iproxtaco wrote:

Durza wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Terminator armour makes the wearer hunched? Source?

The models?

How is that a source? I have a Terminator right here, half assembled, there's really no way you say they're hunched over when looking at them. In fact, considering the head without a helmet is place as if his body is straight, I'd say it's a source that tells us the opposite. Saying that, the models aren't to scale, so I'd dismiss it regardless.

Maybe you are new to 40k, but it is a long standing joke about how horribly hunched over terminators are. Their shoulder joints are parallel with their heads. The new models are slightly less bad, but they are still a fair amount hunched.

New to the online community so never heard of this before. They seem hunched because of their back pack bit, but I really doubt it makes them hunched. Most sources, Soul Hunter springs to mind, say that Terminators tower over regular Marines. They aren't going to achieve that by being hunched.

Lynata wrote:I feel tempted to point out that it would be quite easy to turn this theory around and aim that bullet at all the people so "obtusely" clinging to oversized Marines when GW designers have already said "lolno". There must be a reason for why people so desperately wish for it to be different, right?

Where do they say "lolno"? They provide the average height of a Space Marine, that's it. Please provide a source of studio material that states there absolutely no taller than average Space Marines, and I'll concede the point.

Omegus wrote:Where do they say "lolno"? They provide the average height of a Space Marine, that's it. Please provide a source.

I have. The podcast I have already linked earlier. Again: LISTEN TO IT.
The fact that Jes jokes about oversized novel Marines can easily be interpreted as a gentlemanly "lol, no, that's not how it works".

Can you provide a timestamp of where they talk about it? Because this droning Brit is putting me to sleep and I'm not going to listen to 45 minutes of it.

Kilkrazy wrote:40K is a universe of gigantism.

The IoM is the most powerful and important "realm" because it is the largest, not because it is the best organised or richest.

Imperial navy ships are the best because they are the biggest. Their weapons are physically larger and more powerful than anything, which makes them better.

The IG is powerful because of numbers, not because of skill or quality.

This principle even extends to the size of the uniforms, e.g. pauldrons, coats and hats.

It's unthinkable in such a universe that the most supreme, elite superhuman supersoldiers would be only slightly taller than modern day "guards" soldiers.

And don't forget the Orks.
"Bigger Iz BETTA!"

Lynata wrote:

Omegus wrote:Where do they say "lolno"? They provide the average height of a Space Marine, that's it. Please provide a source.

I have. The podcast I have already linked earlier. Again: LISTEN TO IT.
The fact that Jes jokes about oversized novel Marines can easily be interpreted as a gentlemanly "lol, no, that's not how it works".

Sure, but doesn't that only actually contradict the Black Library if you attribute more authority to Jes Goodwin than the BL authors?

So wait, even assuming he has such authority, that's not something that he says, but rather something you interpret as him saying? Oh boy, the Force is strong with this one.

Omegus wrote:Can you provide a timestamp of where they talk about it? Because this droning Brit is putting me to sleep and I'm not going to listen to 45 minutes of it.

Sure thing, it's at ~30:10 to 32:00.

Monster Rain wrote:Sure, but doesn't that only actually contradict the Black Library if you attribute more authority to Jes Goodwin than the BL authors?

Of course. It's not GW's fault that some Black Library writers either don't read up on the material or simply prefer their own interpretation. They have the artistic license to contradict some details, and some writers make liberal use of that because they like it better that way. I recommend reading Aaron Dembski-Bowden's blog - he has a post regarding this very topic.

Omegus wrote:So wait, even assuming he has such authority, that's not something that he says, but rather something you interpret as him saying?

Hum? If that was directed at me, he does say exactly how big Marines are. The fact that he clearly jokes about the novels exaggerating it is a "lolno" for me. Dunno how it could be interpreted otherwise.