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right, lets start. ive been an avid collector of DA since 2nd ed. (missed out 3rd but back for the 4th), their fluff should mean they kick ass. All i want is to be competitive in comparisson to the marine dex.
allowing better upgrades for sgt's would be nice.
any capt allowed to be upgraded into termy armour.
belial having an invulnerable save- for when not carrying a storm shield.
yes we have a 1st coy totally of termies and tactics and manouvres employed by them should really be reflected in the rules. maybe scatter only 1D6 when DS like the BA's do, possibly allow them to move/charge also as this is their main form of attack, regardless of the fact they did DS. its called deathwing assault for a reason right?
Mortis dread!!!!!!!!!!! need i say more.
bring back asmodia, namaan and bethor. Asmodia as HQ uber chappy with BLADES OF REASON (where did they go, the ultimate in any interrogators equipment) and make him decent in combat- better WS and I to reflect, but not to the extent of beardy mephiston!
have squad upgrades marginally improving them as a whole- make vet sgt an upgrade allowing better spread of weapons- 2 spec weapons per 10 man or 1 spec and 1 heavy.
keep combat squads.
ravenwing could have jink? (again, 2nd ed)?? specialist bikers need something cool.
erm think this rant is over. lol. just love the DA, regardless updates or not i'll still play them.

Flashman wrote:

DAaddict wrote:"Hunt for the fallen" update.

If the DA takes an Interrogator Chaplain, all opposing HQs are worth 2 KP or 1 objective if killed in close combat. (Assumed kept alive for later questioning) Likewise if an opposing HQ is alive at the end of the game, the opponent can claim 2 KP or 1 additional objective. If the HQ dies through fire it counts for 0 KP or Objectives.

The trouble with any Hunt the Fallen rule is that it normally seems a bit daft when you come up against Tyranids... "So Mr Broodlord, tell us everything you know about Cypher and we will ease your suffering."

I'd like to see a rule that acknowledges that the Dark Angels will bugger off if they get whiff of the Fallen elsewhere in the vicinity... though I have no idea of how you'd make it work.

If DA have fewer than 25% models remaining a call is sent out that Cypher has been spotted in a nearby system and they phase ou---strategically retreat to go on the hunt.

But yea, these kind of rules shouldn't be in the rules. They're fun in the rules. And it's great that at the very least DA have a legitimate reason to fight other space marines since 75% of all games are Marine vs Marine it seems. But I don't want any VP scenarios and the like.

The trouble with any Hunt the Fallen rule is that it normally seems a bit daft when you come up against Tyranids... "So Mr Broodlord, tell us everything you know about Cypher and we will ease your suffering."

DA's Grandmaster Librarian Ezekiel has the Psyker ability Mind Worm. It can literally make the SwarmLord go cry in the corner and repent. DA are just that badass.

I had a crazy idea earlier today; hear me out: the Dark Angels rumors is a misdirect to a new Codex: Space Marines, an general Astartes book that will include Ravenwing and Deathwing upgrades in the Chapter Tactics. Of course I don't know anything. What do you all think?

thunderingjove wrote:I had a crazy idea earlier today; hear me out: the Dark Angels rumors is a misdirect to a new Codex: Space Marines, an general Astartes book that will include Ravenwing and Deathwing upgrades in the Chapter Tactics. Of course I don't know anything. What do you all think?

I think that's a good way to get yourself shot spreading rumors like that.

It's unlikely GW is going to collapse the number of SM books we have into a single book. If they were going to do that they would have before updating the SW book back when none of the other chapters offered any real diversity and no one would have cared, other than the loss of fluff, if special characters was all the identity these chapters got.

But now, and after 20 years of these chapters being on their own it's unlikely they'll be merged. Especially since they're all such big money makers.

Nvs wrote:
I think that's a good way to get yourself shot spreading rumors like that.

Speculation, sir. Idle speculation.

Nvs wrote:
It's unlikely GW is going to collapse the number of SM books we have into a single book. If they were going to do that they would have before updating the SW book back when none of the other chapters offered any real diversity and no one would have cared, other than the loss of fluff, if special characters was all the identity these chapters got.

But now, and after 20 years of these chapters being on their own it's unlikely they'll be merged. Especially since they're all such big money makers.

I know you're right on all points. Hell, $40 more just for the codex adds up for the company.

It's just that in the fluff, the DAs are much more orthodox than SWs, BTs, or BAs. What do they really have other than Deathwing and Ravenwing? There are still eight other companies, and these rumors don't seem like they would sustain an entire codex.

Speculation. Idle speculation. I hope I'm right. I'm probably not.

thunderingjove wrote:It's just that in the fluff, the DAs are much more orthodox than SWs, BTs, or BAs. What do they really have other than Deathwing and Ravenwing? There are still eight other companies, and these rumors don't seem like they would sustain an entire codex.

People said the same of Blood Angels.

Aside from the Death Company, Blood Angels didn't do anything dramatically different than other chapters. Suddenly, they get Chibi Bloodhawks, BloodVampires, Special Bloodmarine characters, and Nipplemarines. I guess all their vehicles are also modified to run on Blood and are thus faster.

Dark Angels could easily get Darkcloaks, Darkmissiles, Darkwalkers, Dark Librarians, and Eldar Dark Reapers.

Absolutionis wrote:

thunderingjove wrote:It's just that in the fluff, the DAs are much more orthodox than SWs, BTs, or BAs. What do they really have other than Deathwing and Ravenwing? There are still eight other companies, and these rumors don't seem like they would sustain an entire codex.

People said the same of Blood Angels.

Aside from the Death Company, Blood Angels didn't do anything dramatically different than other chapters. Suddenly, they get Chibi Bloodhawks, BloodVampires, Special Bloodmarine characters, and Nipplemarines. I guess all their vehicles are also modified to run on Blood and are thus faster.

Dark Angels could easily get Darkcloaks, Darkmissiles, Darkwalkers, Dark Librarians, and Eldar Dark Reapers.

Dark Angels with Dark Lances


But seriously, I think we're slowly veering into wishlist territory

Hahaha. Amusing.

Dark angels have better psykers, an unorthodox style (As odd as it sounds, they are not Codex Astartes Reliant, as much as people keep thinking it), a hatred of mutants, The highest amount of Pre-Heresy Technology that no longer is being produced, much of which the other chapters cannot even have.

They also have their OWN factories for producing some preheresy and new technology that they've been changing up some things.

Now this needs to come to pass, DA could be the "Blast to the past" They could use weaponry that is from the Horus Heresy era and before, technology that other chapters would never dream of being able to take. Or take in far less number. (Come on contemptors!) They could have the best Individual psykers (not like GK's squads) Chaplains that represent being the worst torturemasters of the Adeptus Astartes.

DAaddict wrote:"Hunt for the fallen" update.

If the DA takes an Interrogator Chaplain, all opposing HQs are worth 2 KP or 1 objective if killed in close combat. (Assumed kept alive for later questioning) Likewise if an opposing HQ is alive at the end of the game, the opponent can claim 2 KP or 1 additional objective. If the HQ dies through fire it counts for 0 KP or Objectives.

This has potential. Killing enemy HQ's should be through fire or fight, too much hiding if only by HtH. The idea of "hunting for the Fallen" is fluffy and fun.

I would be happy with a couple DA army specific rules and unit costs inline with other books. Power creep or imbalance is not needed.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Dark angels have better psykers, an unorthodox style (As odd as it sounds, they are not Codex Astartes Reliant, as much as people keep thinking it), a hatred of mutants, The highest amount of Pre-Heresy Technology that no longer is being produced, much of which the other chapters cannot even have.

They also have their OWN factories for producing some preheresy and new technology that they've been changing up some things.

Now this needs to come to pass, DA could be the "Blast to the past" They could use weaponry that is from the Horus Heresy era and before, technology that other chapters would never dream of being able to take. Or take in far less number. (Come on contemptors!) They could have the best Individual psykers (not like GK's squads) Chaplains that represent being the worst torturemasters of the Adeptus Astartes.

Why are their psykers better..?

It's been mentioned in a few places that their Librarians tend to be possessed of a more "strategic" mindset and possessed of a bit more in terms of their martial disciplines.

Not "better" persay, but a bit different than the run-of-the-mill Librarians.

ShumaGorath wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Dark angels have better psykers, an unorthodox style (As odd as it sounds, they are not Codex Astartes Reliant, as much as people keep thinking it), a hatred of mutants, The highest amount of Pre-Heresy Technology that no longer is being produced, much of which the other chapters cannot even have.

They also have their OWN factories for producing some preheresy and new technology that they've been changing up some things.

Now this needs to come to pass, DA could be the "Blast to the past" They could use weaponry that is from the Horus Heresy era and before, technology that other chapters would never dream of being able to take. Or take in far less number. (Come on contemptors!) They could have the best Individual psykers (not like GK's squads) Chaplains that represent being the worst torturemasters of the Adeptus Astartes.

Why are their psykers better..?

Some of the tales of their librarians having powerful wills due to their training and obsessive nature. Despite how lackluster they are in the codex currently, they are the only librarians able to take a Psyker test as a substitute for an Invulnerable save, have the most powerful variant of "Template" psychic shooting (If so very very random, a lucky S10 AP1 is always fun to see however.), And Ezekiel's specific mind worm ability able to kill any model on a LD test. Not to mention being the only Special Character Librarian to have a specific ability just for himself.

The fluff often tells that their stronger minded than other chapters martial discipline, and were often mentally strengthened due to the many trials the DA must take to protect the mind from being invaded by enemy psykers, and those that wish to interrogate them should they be captured.

Those don't sound like particularly good reasons to be honest. Most librarians spend all day obsessively training according to their fluffs.

They spend all day "obsessively meditating", by all accounts.

That said, it's really quite simple to come up with different things for the Dark Angels Librarians to make them a touch "stronger" than anyone else's--especially when you put it in the context of the Librarians of the Dark Angels as we've seen them portrayed, where they bolster themselves and their fellow Battle-Brothers in battle.

Something like the various Warlock Powers wouldn't be too far amiss, or the ability to take a Librarian with a single power in lieu of a Heavy or Special Weapon in a Tactical Squad adding something interesting.

Aren't the blood angels librarians supposed to be the most powerful of the loyalist legions since they're the longest lived? Hence Mephiston. The Ultramarines have tigurious, arguably one of the most powerful marine psykers in history. The GKs are all psychic and their librarians have like, nemesis doom brains. Chapters like the exorcists or the blood ravens are supposed to have exceptionally powerful librarians due to unorthodox training techniques or simple genetic preference.

I'm having a hard time really understanding why the dark angels get:

The most powerful terminators
The most powerful librarians
The most powerful and common high technology weapons
The most powerful vehicular platforms
Et cetera

Where is all this coming from? I know their fluff states that they're the best thing ever, but so does every other marine armies fluff. If there is going to be an actual boost in capability over the run of the mill regular 200 year old superhuman god man that trains 22 hours a day in game than it needs to be a bit more legit than "Well they interrogate people a lot" in my humble opinion.

Hence Mephiston.

Mephiston was a very special case that managed to subdue his own Black Rage and gain power from it without breaking under the strain, as in he went through it, survived through it, and became powerful (And he wasn;t this strong in the previous codexes, they've made him a MC in an infantry's body) But Mephiston isn't the norm for the Blood Angels

The Ultramarines have tigurious, arguably one of the most powerful marine psykers in history.

Why? Because he partially diverted a splinter fleet? That's become old hat now as several people have done this by now (Even in dawn of war 2!), he's arguably far less powerful than Ahriman back before the heresy started, and his only main power was using more psyker abilities. Though he does have that very powerful ability to determine "Locations" Thus his reroll ability for reserves, he is a very powerful mystic when it comes to directing troops and others. But the most powerful? Not really. He's up there though.

The most powerful terminators

Actually they are the most numerous, and most customizable, not most powerful, as they are not always the most elite of the elite like some chapters that get it, as DA has the most terminator suits (And can actually PRODUCE their own! Big difference there). As much as I hate to admit it, GK does indeed have the strongest terminators of all the chapters.

The most powerful librarians

Technically at this point it's the second most powerful, Blood Ravens are above them in librarian skill (Due to being from the Thousand Son Geneseed potentially) But they are the strongest of the founder chapters, however they are less numerous as well.

The most powerful and common high technology weapons

Also yes, they've stockpiled things like a nut preparing for the nuclear apocalypse in a personal bunker.

The most powerful vehicular platforms

Iron Hands have the most powerful Vehicular actually, due to them being far better at production and modification, as I said Dark Angels can produce their own vehicles with those special construction blueprints. (However Ultramarines can do the same thing, and have more thanks to Ultramar and it's numerous facilities nearby, but the main issue is that Dark Angels can produce Pre-Heresy Tech)

Kanluwen wrote:Something like the various Warlock Powers wouldn't be too far amiss, or the ability to take a Librarian with a single power in lieu of a Heavy or Special Weapon in a Tactical Squad adding something interesting.

Well,

The Blood Angels stole the Wave Serpent from the Eldar.
The Grey Knights stole Warp Spider packs from the Eldar.
It only makes sense that the Dark Angels be allowed to steal Farseer and Warlock powers from the Eldar.

Even as an Eldar player I somewhat support this. Space Marine psykers are all about making things explode in various ways. Dark Angels are colder and more calculating; they should get powers such as Embolden, Guide, and Fortune.
It fits the stubborn refusal to yield ground niche that Deathwatch imposed on Dark Angels.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Technically at this point it's the second most powerful, Blood Ravens are above them in librarian skill (Due to being from the Thousand Son Geneseed potentially) But they are the strongest of the founder chapters yes.

Well, the Thousand Sons are the first founding chapter with the best and most numerous Psykers. I guess Dark Angels would be the loyalist first founding chapter with the most/best psykers. If you're applying so many qualifiers, the point is moot at this point.

Absolutionis wrote:Well,

The Blood Angels stole the Wave Serpent from the Eldar.
The Grey Knights stole Warp Spider packs from the Eldar.
It only makes sense that the Dark Angels be allowed to steal Farseer and Warlock powers from the Eldar.

Even as an Eldar player I somewhat support this. Space Marine psykers are all about making things explode in various ways. Dark Angels are colder and more calculating; they should get powers such as Embolden, Guide, and Fortune.
It fits the stubborn refusal to yield ground niche that Deathwatch imposed on Dark Angels.

But they already stole mindwar.

Mephiston is so powerful not because the Blood Angels are "the longest lived", but because he's overcome The Black Rage.
The Exorcists have no mention of "exceptionally powerful Librarians". They have a pseudo-resistance to possession by Daemonic entities, but that's more for the entirety of the Chapter as they undergo a kind of immunization by forced possessions.
Blood Ravens have an abundance of Librarians, not necessarily are they all "exceptionally powerful".
Grey Knights did not have Librarians prior to the current book, and the jist of them now is that they are psykers who are particularly powerful by themselves rather than in a group like the majority of the Grey Knights.

You really need to focus less on the idea of "more powerful X" and realize that the jist is that they are of a different caliber than the "run of the mill".

A member of the Deathwing, when compared with your "average" First Company veteran is going to have more experience operating as a member of a Terminator armor equipped offensive.
The First Company of other Chapters deploy in Terminator armor or Power Armor. The equivalent of "Sternguard" or "Vanguard" Veterans within other Chapters? That is the Company Veterans of the Dark Angels or their Successors.

The idea of them having the "most powerful" Librarians is most definitely silly. They have quite a few powerful ones, but it comes down to more that their Librarians are more like the Farseers of the Eldar. They're powerful, and they can most certainly be a great hero of the Chapter...however they tend to be more of a "behind the scenes" individual. In terms of the background, traditionally they've been very much (and the Deathwatch RPG has some good examples of this) a group of individuals who are more about psychological manipulation (Mask of Shadows and Mind Worm) to do the majority of the work for them and that meshes with the overall tactics of the Dark Angels.

The "most powerful and common high technology weapons" thing is something they recently had introduced. It's not that they have whole armories of jetbikes floating around, but because they were the First Legion they were equipped with more advanced equipment prior to the Horus Heresy. There's entire vaults within The Rock which supposedly hold technologies like this--which allows for an easy way to introduce archaic technology to the Dark Angels as something discovered.

Not sure where the idea of "most powerful vehicular platforms" you mention came from.

For Xenos, it can be just restoring artifacts lost during the war one way or another.

A member of the Deathwing, when compared with your "average" First Company veteran is going to have more experience operating as a member of a Terminator armor equipped offensive.

Why? Do they lose access to non terminator veteran squads to make up for that? Why does having a secret brotherhood with forced induction make them better?

If they have more skilled terminators at the loss of skill elsewhere than it can make sense. As it is, they don't train more or harder than anyone else. If their methodologies make them uniquely more powerful (as with the grey knights) than it would be different, but it doesn't sound like thats the case. If there is a tradeoff that makes the terminator thing make more sense than it's ok in my mind. The calls for "more power" annoy me because it creates gradiations in the quality of marines. It makes other armies (like mine) weaker by default. I can accept that, but I want a damn good reason.

The idea of them having the "most powerful" Librarians is most definitely silly. They have quite a few powerful ones, but it comes down to more that their Librarians are more like the Farseers of the Eldar. They're powerful, and they can most certainly be a great hero of the Chapter...however they tend to be more of a "behind the scenes" individual. In terms of the background, traditionally they've been very much (and the Deathwatch RPG has some good examples of this) a group of individuals who are more about psychological manipulation (Mask of Shadows and Mind Worm) to do the majority of the work for them and that meshes with the overall tactics of the Dark Angels.

This is perfectly valid to me.

Not sure where the idea of "most powerful vehicular platforms" you mention came from.

I inferred it from the idea of their more ready access to high value technology. Items like machine spirits, conversion beamers, reliable plasma weaponry, older marks of dreadnaughts, etc. The age of a chapter shows in its armory, if they have a lot of old gak than they have a lot of old vehicles.

And we all know that in the 40k universe, the older the better. Look at all the technologies that we have "lost": titans, jetbikes, ...

ShumaGorath wrote:

A member of the Deathwing, when compared with your "average" First Company veteran is going to have more experience operating as a member of a Terminator armor equipped offensive.

Why? Do they lose access to non terminator veteran squads to make up for that? Why does having a secret brotherhood with forced induction make them better?

If they have more skilled terminators at the loss of skill elsewhere than it can make sense.

Yes and no. Dark Angels Company Veteran Squads are a bit "different" in how they're set up. No Special Issue Ammunition being the biggest, and mainly it being a "Tactical Plus" Squad.

As it is, they don't train more or harder than anyone else. If their methodologies make them uniquely more powerful (as with the grey knights) than it would be different, but it doesn't sound like thats the case. If there is a tradeoff that makes the terminator thing make more sense than it's ok in my mind. The calls for "more power" annoy me because it creates gradiations in the quality of marines. It makes other armies (like mine) weaker by default. I can accept that, but I want a damn good reason.

I'm all for there being a tradeoff. The simplest answer is to have two "grades" of Deathwing Terminators.
The standard Deathwing Terminators are very much just standard Terminator squads, while the Inner Circle Deathwing members are beefier and more akin to the Grey Knight Paladins.
Inner Circle members are those who have been within the Deathwing for decades, if not centuries. They're highly trusted members of the Chapter, privy to its mysteries, and have usually been involved in campaigns spanning the galaxy.

The idea of them having the "most powerful" Librarians is most definitely silly. They have quite a few powerful ones, but it comes down to more that their Librarians are more like the Farseers of the Eldar. They're powerful, and they can most certainly be a great hero of the Chapter...however they tend to be more of a "behind the scenes" individual. In terms of the background, traditionally they've been very much (and the Deathwatch RPG has some good examples of this) a group of individuals who are more about psychological manipulation (Mask of Shadows and Mind Worm) to do the majority of the work for them and that meshes with the overall tactics of the Dark Angels.

This is perfectly valid to me.

Not sure where the idea of "most powerful vehicular platforms" you mention came from.

I inferred it from the idea of their more ready access to high value technology. Items like machine spirits, conversion beamers, reliable plasma weaponry, older marks of dreadnaughts, etc. The age of a chapter shows in its armory, if they have a lot of old gak than they have a lot of old vehicles.

Ah, okay.

Yeah, I'd assume they have quite a few old vehicles but I think it's more likely that they just have access to a lot more simply by virtue of having been around long enough.

Kanluwen wrote:Yes and no. Dark Angels Company Veteran Squads are a bit "different" in how they're set up. No Special Issue Ammunition being the biggest, and mainly it being a "Tactical Plus" Squad.

Let me stop you right there on this point.

They don't have special issue ammunition right now, but there's nothing to say that that won't be retconned and they'll be inserted right into the fluff (just like Stern/Vanguard were originally). To put it another way, it's hard to say that DA's don't have these things when their Codex was written before these things were created. Are you going to make the argument that the Dark Angels have no Thunderfire Cannons in the fluff because their Codex came out before GW made the model so they don't have the rules for them?

Master of the Forge used to be the only one having conversion beamer. Now even a lowly techmarine in GK has conversion beamer. Everything is possible when Matt "Emparah" Ward is around.

The point is everything is possible. But I agree with everyone here in this thread that plasma specialty is probably best for Dark Angel.

There's an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor dual-wielding Conversion Beamers in the latest Rogue Trader expansion. She rocks!

I'm all for there being a tradeoff. The simplest answer is to have two "grades" of Deathwing Terminators.
The standard Deathwing Terminators are very much just standard Terminator squads, while the Inner Circle Deathwing members are beefier and more akin to the Grey Knight Paladins.
Inner Circle members are those who have been within the Deathwing for decades, if not centuries. They're highly trusted members of the Chapter, privy to its mysteries, and have usually been involved in campaigns spanning the galaxy.

Which makes them better than any other veteran marine that has served for centuries... How? Bringing it back to blood angels, they have veterans that have literally being doing the veteran thing for half a millenia, possibly longer. How is "Being privy to deep dark secrets" something that turns you into a paladin level powerhouse?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Yes and no. Dark Angels Company Veteran Squads are a bit "different" in how they're set up. No Special Issue Ammunition being the biggest, and mainly it being a "Tactical Plus" Squad.

Let me stop you right there on this point.

They don't have special issue ammunition right now, but there's nothing to say that that won't be retconned and they'll be inserted right into the fluff (just like Stern/Vanguard were originally).To put it another way, it's hard to say that DA's don't have these things when their Codex was written before these things were created. Are you going to make the argument that the Dark Angels have no Thunderfire Cannons in the fluff because their Codex came out before GW made the model so they don't have the rules for them?

Yes, I'm aware of that. Originally I had planned on writing something with "now" in it, but opted instead to just use present tenses for my descriptors. I'm not trying to start an argument with you on this point, simply saying that you are correct in saying that right now there is an issue and it very well could be remedied.

However, nothing says that Company Veterans will be the same--or that they'll be altered for that matter. Hell, nothing even says that they will remain in the army book.

But if they remain the same as they are now, then there is no reason that we should not see more powerful Deathwing units.
Which brings me to another point...
As it stands right now, the Elites section for Dark Angels is too cramped. Scouts being the biggest example of this. Scouts need to be made Troops or Fast Attack. Them being Elites makes no sense given their loadouts, stats, and lack of special rules.

For my own personal thoughts, however, I would do this:
"Vanilla" Deathwing Terminators can be purchased as Troops if you take a Captain, Librarian, or Chaplain in Terminator Armor to lead your force.
If Belial OR Azrael are taken as your force's leader, then Inner Circle Deathwing Terminators can be taken as Troops choices.

The difference will mainly lie in their armaments. For the standard Deathwing Terminators, we'll see the usual stuff. Cyclone Missile Launchers, Assault Cannons, Heavy Flamers, Chainfists, yadda yadda yadda.
For the Inner Circle Terminators, we'll see a lot more different stuff. More powerful refractor fields incorporated into the armor, weaponry bordering on the mythical or mundane, etc.
I'd personally go for options like Conversion Beamers, Heavy Bolters with varying shell options--there's a huge variety of stuff which could be incorporated.

On that same note, I'd like to see Terminator equipped Devastator squads.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShumaGorath wrote:

I'm all for there being a tradeoff. The simplest answer is to have two "grades" of Deathwing Terminators.
The standard Deathwing Terminators are very much just standard Terminator squads, while the Inner Circle Deathwing members are beefier and more akin to the Grey Knight Paladins.
Inner Circle members are those who have been within the Deathwing for decades, if not centuries. They're highly trusted members of the Chapter, privy to its mysteries, and have usually been involved in campaigns spanning the galaxy.

Which makes them better than any other veteran marine that has served for centuries... How? Bringing it back to blood angels, they have veterans that have literally being doing the veteran thing for half a millenia, possibly longer. How is "Being privy to deep dark secrets" something that turns you into a paladin level powerhouse?

It's not simply a case of "being privy to deep dark secrets". It's "being privy to deep dark secrets and being one of those who have survived facing traitors who have waged war against the Imperium for millenia".