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from what i understand it is based on a 24" x 24" battle

it comes down to most votes wins.

i figured that a description of the "battle field" will help people in visualizing the fight, and decide how it goes, then vote that way.

for example a larger table wound favor range and speed over slower models. and a smaller field would favor CC over ranged. a 24x24 allows for a pretty average scenario - wich i hope people consider, along with rules for each, and of course the statistical math hammer.

but yes, in the end its a voting popularity contest... as running an actual battle would be difficult.... unless every one entered a single character, and matchs where fought via vassal....

I've got to go with the Swarmlord here, as already said Lysander has no ranged attacks and the swarmlord at least has some psychic shooting. In combat the swarmlord strikes first, will probably have Lysander at weapon skill 1 for the first round because of Paroxysm and even after that Lysander is at a disadvantage in most areas and might as well be on par for toughness and strength thanks to his thunderhammer.

Crucially because he is rerolling his succesful invulnerable saves he has less chance of passing an invulnerable save then the swarmlord, which means that with the Swarmlords greater number of attacks and wounds he will outlast Lysander in most cases.

Lysanders is pretty cool though

Wait...where's the poll?

Kain wrote:Wait...where's the poll?

this time it is discuss first then vote

I think lysander will win the vote not because he wounld win the combat but because htere are alot of space marines players out there who will vote for him... on the table lysander get smashed

Don't be so cynical.

having fought both lysander and the swarm lord i think it is going to be the swarmlord. and i play space marines

G00fySmiley wrote:

Kain wrote:Wait...where's the poll?

this time it is discuss first then vote

I think lysander will win the vote not because he wounld win the combat but because htere are alot of space marines players out there who will vote for him... on the table lysander get smashed

If that were true, then the GK Captain should have won the generic deadliest warrior

The only thing holding the swarmlord back from deadliest close combat warrior ever in 40k is want for Eternal warrior and a relatively small number of attacks. If he had EW and say six attacks I think he'd be able to chew through most anything. As it stands, only Abaddon, Vect, Mephiston, and Draigo are really on his level, and maybe Ghazzy.

King Pariah wrote:

G00fySmiley wrote:

Kain wrote:Wait...where's the poll?

this time it is discuss first then vote

I think lysander will win the vote not because he wounld win the combat but because htere are alot of space marines players out there who will vote for him... on the table lysander get smashed

If that were true, then the GK Captain should have won the generic deadliest warrior

point.. but in nuber one ghazzy took it, i liek ghaz and am primarily an ork player but ghaz mathammer wise ghaz wouldn't have won that battle .. though its close so it comes down to the actual dice.. still i forsee lysander getting the vote but i hope i'm wrong and people take info accoutn that lysander would be bone(sworde)d

I think you should do 9 battles on 24"x24" board so that it doesn't boil down to some numpty going "______ IS DA BESTEST GUY EVAR!!!! I IS GONNA VOTE FOR HIM"

The Swarmlord has only one major weakness: no eternal warrior. Since every hit with the bonesabres causes instant death, any other SC he goes up against without EW will come down to who goes first, and he's got a wicked initiative.

I think Swarmy will mow down all his opponents until he meets someone else who causes ID, and is EW. Then he'll just pop in one hit :(

Where is the poll?

polls opened. a bit early, but im away from my comp untill late, so i would rather be a bit early then almost a day late.

kain: - this time 'round we get to discuss and theroy hammer in an attempt to "sway" the voters. makes for a slightly longer process, but hopefully elminitaes some of the "this guy is my fav so im voting for him even though he would loose" type of votes.

Doesn't Lysander have Init. 1 because of his thunder hammer anyway? And he has termy armour, so that's a 2+ and a 3++ save.

A save he has to reroll if successful due to the bone sabre's special rules.

i'm glad to see i am being proven wrong gladd to see people using their heads instead of just waying zomg speece marines rulez allzorz

Well, the Swarmlord beats Lysander in all relevant categories except strength, and as both are wounding one another on a two plus it's irrelevant. As for the invulnerable save, the Swarmlord's special rules will make his inv equal to it's own. Heck if the swarmlord starts out with paroxysm and leech essence Lysander would have pretty much no hope of winning.

Swarmlord takes this one with little issue. looks like the votes agreed with the discussion this time around. next up, imotekh and kharn.

hard to say on this one, since i dont play against kharn that often, but having played vrs imotekh on numerous occasions...he is a tough nut to bring down, if only because of his saves. weapon wise, the rerolls are nice, but lack of a power weapon makes him a bit lesser in the fight. (providing of course his lightning doesnt nuke kharn before he even moves)

does kharn have a power weapon, or just a crazy amount of attacks?

unlike the generic lord imotekh has not of the MSS... so that gives kharn an edge on the init side of things and that he gets all his attacks. tough call

Kharn zomg speece marines rulez allzorz

Well Kharn has 6 Attacks per combat that only miss on 1s. Then he's wounding on 4s which is 3 wounds of which 1 will be unsaved.

If Imotekh charges, He (Well, it) gets 4 Attacks, 3 will hit because of the GoF. Then he'll get 3 wonds again from the GoF of which 1 will fail.

Drawn combat

Even if Kharn charges it ultimately boils down to who has the most wounds.

DarthSpader wrote:Does kharn have a power weapon, or just a crazy amount of attacks?

Kharn's axe - Gorechild - counts as a power weapon. But Imotekh has a phase shifter, so he has 3++ anyway. Imotekh has a gauntlet of fire, which gives him re-rolls to wound and to hit.

Fluff wise, Kharn would win. Imotekh is an amazing commander, but I don't think he's meant to be staggeringly effective in CC. Kharn is meant to be staggering in CC, and (at least the way I see it) not really meant to give a stuff about how the overall attack is orchestrated (besides demanding everyone charge and hack and slash madly).

So I'd give it to Kharn. And besides, he's one hell of a guy.

DexKivuli wrote:
Fluff wise, Kharn would win. Imotekh is an amazing commander, but I don't think he's meant to be staggeringly effective in CC. Kharn is meant to be staggering in CC, and (at least the way I see it) not really meant to give a stuff about how the overall attack is orchestrated (besides demanding everyone charge and hack and slash madly).

So I'd give it to Kharn. And besides, he's one hell of a guy.

Imotekh handily beat Helbrecht in a one-on-one duel, and as much as I want to chalk it down to the fluff being written just to prop up the Necrons (hey, if Eldar get to complain about Calgar vs. Avatar then I get to complain too! ) I get the feeling that it isn't too far-fetched. Then again, I'd agree that nothing short of An'ggrath or Angron should be able to beat Khârn in CC fluff-wise. That guy's a walking de-skullifier.

nothing short of An'ggrath or Angron should be able to beat Khârn in CC fluff-wise. That guy's a walking de-skullifier.

What about Skulltaker?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

DexKivuli wrote:
Fluff wise, Kharn would win. Imotekh is an amazing commander, but I don't think he's meant to be staggeringly effective in CC. Kharn is meant to be staggering in CC, and (at least the way I see it) not really meant to give a stuff about how the overall attack is orchestrated (besides demanding everyone charge and hack and slash madly).

So I'd give it to Kharn. And besides, he's one hell of a guy.

Imotekh handily beat Helbrecht in a one-on-one duel, and as much as I want to chalk it down to the fluff being written just to prop up the Necrons (hey, if Eldar get to complain about Calgar vs. Avatar then I get to complain too! ) I get the feeling that it isn't too far-fetched. Then again, I'd agree that nothing short of An'ggrath or Angron should be able to beat Khârn in CC fluff-wise. That guy's a walking de-skullifier.

I'd say the swarmlord could handily kill Kharn in close combat, having millions of years of experience, and an extra three weapons as well as being far stronger and tougher. A fight would go like this, Kharn swings, the swarmlord parries with one arm and the other three impale him.

DeffDred wrote:

nothing short of An'ggrath or Angron should be able to beat Khârn in CC fluff-wise. That guy's a walking de-skullifier.

What about Skulltaker?

Let's call it a draw...

Kain wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

DexKivuli wrote:
Fluff wise, Kharn would win. Imotekh is an amazing commander, but I don't think he's meant to be staggeringly effective in CC. Kharn is meant to be staggering in CC, and (at least the way I see it) not really meant to give a stuff about how the overall attack is orchestrated (besides demanding everyone charge and hack and slash madly).

So I'd give it to Kharn. And besides, he's one hell of a guy.

Imotekh handily beat Helbrecht in a one-on-one duel, and as much as I want to chalk it down to the fluff being written just to prop up the Necrons (hey, if Eldar get to complain about Calgar vs. Avatar then I get to complain too! ) I get the feeling that it isn't too far-fetched. Then again, I'd agree that nothing short of An'ggrath or Angron should be able to beat Khârn in CC fluff-wise. That guy's a walking de-skullifier.

I'd say the swarmlord could handily kill Kharn in close combat, having millions of years of experience, and an extra three weapons as well as being far stronger and tougher. A fight would go like this, Kharn swings, the swarmlord parries with one arm and the other three impale him.

The thing that more or less decides who wins, and that we don't know anything about, is how much Khorne is propping up Khârn. Both Lucius and Typhus, the Slaanesh and Nurgle equivalent of Khârn, respectively, have recieved significant support from their Masters. Khârn as a Space Marine against the Swarmlord would probably be pretty one-sided, Khârn as the chosen Champion of Khorne against the Swarmlord is a more interesting fight, and my money would be on Khârn TBH.

That said, table-topwise the Swarmlord wins without breaking a sweat...

The thing is, Imotekh could probably shoot Kharn down. His Staff of the Destroyer is a powerful weapon (though short-ranged, and the Gauntlet of Fire has the possibility of doing damage (also, outside of the game, I highly doubt Imotekh would only use a single weapon whilst a blood-crazed mook is charging him)

Imotekh also has lightning. And a Phylactery. Unlike the game, fluff-wise the Necrons heal 99% of the time. The fight between Kahn and Obyron shows that they heal rather quickly, despite how slow their reflexes are. A Phylactery would only aid in that regeneration, or perhaps make it happen at a faster rate. Imotekh might not be able to dodge, but with the Phase Shifter and his ability to regenerate, Kharn would have a hell of a time killing Imotekh permanently.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

DeffDred wrote:

nothing short of An'ggrath or Angron should be able to beat Khârn in CC fluff-wise. That guy's a walking de-skullifier.

What about Skulltaker?

Let's call it a draw...

Kain wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

DexKivuli wrote:
Fluff wise, Kharn would win. Imotekh is an amazing commander, but I don't think he's meant to be staggeringly effective in CC. Kharn is meant to be staggering in CC, and (at least the way I see it) not really meant to give a stuff about how the overall attack is orchestrated (besides demanding everyone charge and hack and slash madly).

So I'd give it to Kharn. And besides, he's one hell of a guy.

Imotekh handily beat Helbrecht in a one-on-one duel, and as much as I want to chalk it down to the fluff being written just to prop up the Necrons (hey, if Eldar get to complain about Calgar vs. Avatar then I get to complain too! ) I get the feeling that it isn't too far-fetched. Then again, I'd agree that nothing short of An'ggrath or Angron should be able to beat Khârn in CC fluff-wise. That guy's a walking de-skullifier.

I'd say the swarmlord could handily kill Kharn in close combat, having millions of years of experience, and an extra three weapons as well as being far stronger and tougher. A fight would go like this, Kharn swings, the swarmlord parries with one arm and the other three impale him.

The thing that more or less decides who wins, and that we don't know anything about, is how much Khorne is propping up Khârn. Both Lucius and Typhus, the Slaanesh and Nurgle equivalent of Khârn, respectively, have recieved significant support from their Masters. Khârn as a Space Marine against the Swarmlord would probably be pretty one-sided, Khârn as the chosen Champion of Khorne against the Swarmlord is a more interesting fight, and my money would be on Khârn TBH.

That said, table-topwise the Swarmlord wins without breaking a sweat...

Kharn still can't get around the fact that he only has one melee useful weapon against the swarmlord's four. When a multiwielder faces a single wielder, the typical strategy is to block their weapon with one and then kill them with the other, which they can't defend against as their other weapon is occupied. The swarmlord could tie up each of Kharne's arms and still have enough boneswords to cut him into three pieces.

Fluff-wise, Imotekh would probably just regen every single hit and eventually beat Kharn, as McNinja has pointed out. This guy is about as impossible to beat in a 1v1 duel as it gets simply because he refuses to stay down. Of course, Imotekh wouldn't actually kill Kharn, just chop off a hand and let him go.

On the tabletop, hmm, bit tougher. Imotekh has lightning, which does need to get lucky but can instagib Kharn due to S 8 vs T 4(Kharn isn't Eternal Warrior, right?). Then there's Staff of the Destroyer, which could do a wound before the cc part, and of course the flamer on Imotekh's GoF(and the re-rolls as well). So there's some fun right there. Then a 3+ invul, a 5+ RP, and if he makes it he gets back up with D3 wounds to do it all over again.

Kharn is a pretty fun guy to be around, we all agree on that. He's got a plasma pistol for range, and Gorechild for melee, plus a ton of attacks, especially if he gets the charge. 3+ is nice and 5++ could be useful.

Here's the thing: For all intents and purposes they both have a 3+ save against everything except Staff of the Destroyer, which Kharn will have to rely on his 5++ to stop. Kharn hits easier, but Imotekh gets to re-roll all hits and wounds. Imotekh has a chance to get back up with full wounds, though without a rez orb with him it's only a 5+, but still a chance. Then he gets to keep rolling that 5+ every time he goes down and get back up with 1 wound after the first time.

In the end, both of these guys are pretty tough and have multiple ways to do some damage. I'm going to say Imotekh on this one, though, for two reasons: One, if the lightning gets lucky, Kharn goes down in one hit. Two, Imotekh has a chance to get back up with full wounds(and every single time he goes down after that with 1 wound) so Kharn has to essentially fight Imotekh over and over until Imotekh decides to stop rolling reanimation protocols. Hurray for Ever-Living.

We'll have to see how the mathhammer turns out if someone does it, should be interesting in any case though.

The other thing to consider us kharn strikes first, so he could in theory knock Imotekh down, then when he stands up, charge him again, knock him down, rinse repeat untill Imotekh fails that 5+ and with the number of attacks kharn can throw out on the charge Imotekh could very easy fail 3 of those 3+ saves. A lucky lightning strike or round of combat might make Imotekh win... But that init factor and number of attacks looks to favor kharn. Even though i prefer 'crons over chaos.