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Voting opened. Closes Monday, Monday MONDAY!!! Vote now, now NOW!!


Sorry.... Bit of a monster truck moment ....

SoulGazer wrote:We'll have to see how the mathhammer turns out if someone does it, should be interesting in any case though.

I didn't math hammer it, because it was too hard... but I did simulation hammer it. 100,000 battles each time.

I stand by my earlier belief that fluff-wise, Kharn should win... however, my sims give:
- If no one charged, Imotekh won 53.65% of the time (with the fights lasting, on average, 3.85 rounds).
- If Kharn charged, it's more or less reversed, Kharn winning 53.04% of the time (with the fights lasting, on average, 3.56 rounds).
- If Imotekh charged, he wins a whopping 57.63% of the time (with fights lasting, on average, 3.64 rounds).

I'm voting Kharn, for the idea that he should be able to move from cover to cover until he's in charge range, then his higher init and attacks should beat down Imotekh.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:I'm voting Kharn, for the idea that he should be able to move from cover to cover until he's in charge range, then his higher init and attacks should beat down Imotekh.

While Imotekh does what? Stands there like a fething moron? Really? Imotekh is one of greatest tacticians in the galaxy, better than any marine. What in zeus's name makes you think Imotekh would let Kharn (a giant dude with a huge frekaing axe yelling his head off) just walk up to him? Keep in mind that Imotekh also has a flamer weapon, so Kharn would be surrounded by green fire most of the time he's running. Also that whole "Staff of the Destroyer" thing (S6 AP1 weapon) might put a bit of a damper on Kharn's charge.

I want Imotekh to win. DexKivuli probably didn't include the shooting phase, but if he did, Imotekh would win. Imotekh has more survivability and more ranged capabilities than Kharn (one Imotekh's ranged abilities can hit you anywhere on the board).

McNinja wrote: DexKivuli probably didn't include the shooting phase

Absolutely right, I didn't. The point I was trying to highlight is that on a purely rules based decision, close combat still favours Imotekh. Include shooting and it's even worse for the K-man.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:Kharn should be able to move from cover to cover until he's in charge range

Kharn? Use cover? Khorne would should smite you where you stand for even suggesting such a thing!!

Much like the overlord vs. Hive tyrant hq battle, anyone who doesn't vote for imotekh clearly has no knowledge of the new necron codex or imotekhs abilities.

McNinja wrote:Much like the overlord vs. Hive tyrant hq battle, anyone who doesn't vote for imotekh clearly has no knowledge of the new necron codex or imotekhs abilities.

I did the Mathhammer (Kinda) and Kharn always wounded Imotekh before he swung back. Combat is pretty much even other than Kharn swinging first. Plus which Imotekh's lightning will have 3/4 turns max to zap Kharn. I'm affraid I'm not very familiar with the SotD, but I know it is variable range meabing thet it might not even reach Kharn if he does get to shoot.

And on the wound front, it doesn't matter who charges because it is never capable of being rounded up.

people are just voting for Kharne because "Hurrdurr fun guy hurrdurr." I find him to be really quite overrated in close combat.

If Immotek is pulling a near even fight with Kharn, than I'm with you guys... It would pull things in his favor to what? About 70% victory? (Chance of lightning id, SotD, Gauntlet fire, etc vs... a Plasma Pistol. Kharne has a 5+ invuln save and a 3+ armour, so not much to hold onto compared to the 2+ / 3++ Immotekh is running.)

McNinja wrote:Much like the overlord vs. Hive tyrant hq battle, anyone who doesn't vote for imotekh clearly has no knowledge of the new necron codex or imotekhs abilities.

I wonder if there should be two separate win conditions, one for popularity and one for simulation results. Just in case there are scenarios like the one you described(Or even this current situation). I wasn't around much for much of the character battles, sadly, but where there many instances like that?

The Crusader wrote:

McNinja wrote:Much like the overlord vs. Hive tyrant hq battle, anyone who doesn't vote for imotekh clearly has no knowledge of the new necron codex or imotekhs abilities.

I did the Mathhammer (Kinda) and Kharn always wounded Imotekh before he swung back. Combat is pretty much even other than Kharn swinging first. Plus which Imotekh's lightning will have 3/4 turns max tozap Kharn. I'm affraid I'm not very familiar with the SotD, buI know it is variable range meabing thet it might not even reach Kharn if he does get to

And on the wound front, it doesn't matter who charges because it is never capable of being rounded up.

including imotekhs 3+ invuln save?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SoulGazer wrote:

McNinja wrote:Much like the overlord vs. Hive tyrant hq battle, anyone who doesn't vote for imotekh clearly has no knowledge of the new necron codex or imotekhs abilities.

I wonder if there should be two separate win conditions, one for popularity and one for simulation results. Just in case there are scenarios like the one you described(Or even this current situation). I wasn't around much for much of the character battles, sadly, but where there many instances like that?

not really, the ol v. Ht was the one I saw. This a deadliest character competition, so really how much you like a given character shouldn't matter all that much.

I did factor that in. Because of Imotekhs lake of a PW they're both using a 3+ save. They're both scoring the same amount of wounds as a result.

i think popularity did play in a few times, but for the most part the best one won. for this one, it was so close numbers wise i think the number of attacks kharn had saw him the day. and i agree with the theroy... throw enough attacks at that 2+/3+ and eventually it WILL go down and stay down. and a 5+ to get back up is not really reliable.

in any case, kharn moves on, and imotekh gets to return to his worlds generals duties. (i think both are happier this way)

next up, Vect takes on Eldrad in probally one of the longest running kin wars and grudge matches in the grimdark.

my thoughts here:

vect has Preferred enemy and gets to reroll hits and wounds vrs eldrad.. he has a power weapon that wounds on a 3+..he packs a 2+invun, he has orbs to deal some shooty damage.. and a mess of attacks.

eldrad... 4+invun, fewer attacks, but doom, fortune and some ranged psyker fun help him out. in the end though....i think vect has a slight edge..

oooht hats a tough match up...from a fluffy point of view eldrad would have saw it comming and wiped vect from existence, but vect does have some really interesting rules now does vect get to use the dais also?

Vect is *absurdly* destructive in close combat. I've seen him leave a trail of dead chaos space marines 1800 points long without losing a single wound. This is one of the few guys who can go toe to toe with abaddon and come out on top more often than not. There are codexes that lack *anything* that can even hold this guy down in close combat for much longer than a single turn. He takes it with ease.

Oh dear, the galaxies two ultimate mortals trolls are clashing... I'm not even getting a gut feeling on who to put my money on here... I have a feeling that mathhammer is going to give them both a 50/50 chance.

Vect should take this one pretty easily.

(deleted--wrong thread)

played a game today.. 2k vrs an eldar player with an eldrad fixation. he fielded a flying circus list, with 3 falcons, and some wave serpents eldrad and a council, plus a bunch of vypers and banshees. i used my venom list with vect on a raider and attached a squad of bloodbrides with shardnets in place of a blasterborn squad.

vect just completley owned the eldar. his unit accounted for 2 full gaurdian squads, 2 banshee squads (although those were only 6 men teams) and managed to take out eldrad and his seer council. by the end of the game i did loose all the brides, but vect was untouched. the fight that mattered was vect and 3 brides vrs eldrad 2 warlocks and a farseer, along with 5 gaurdians. (i had charged the gaurdians, killed most, they held and eldrad counter charged.) the fight did not go well. the brides dealt with the gaurdians easy peasy, and vect tore through the seer council like tissue paper. i didnt target eldrad at first (i was hoping to force a failed LD and sweep him) but he managed to make his check. after that though, vect just rolled eldrad. 5 attacks rerolling hits, and his 3+ wounds ended up with eldrad needing 4 invuns...at 4+ he failed 2 of them, then failed to do any damage at all. in return. vect finished the fight off next turn.

hitting on 3+ wounding on 3+ and rerolling fails... plus his high init, 2+ invun and whole mess of attacks makes Vect a straight up rock n roll curb stomper.

i think eldrads only chance is to stay at range and mindwar, eldrich storm, and win at the ranged fight. once things get to melee...even 4+ fortune invuns wont stop the pure wounding power of vects onslaught... however i will concede the dice rolled my way and not the eldars this game. mathhammer may proove me wrong.

Eldrad isn't really a CC fighter. He has a single attack that wounds at 2+ and ignores armor. Not very good. He's a midrange caster, that's it, but with a good save and the ability to re-roll it.

Well, it honestly sounds like your friend misplays Eldrad...

First off, he has a 3+ invulnerable save, not a 4+. That save should also be re-rollable (if it's not, then he's not doing it right, or has some pretty terrible luck with dice rolls) Second, note that Eldrad always wounds on a 2+. Yes, he has a lack of attacks, and vect is an absolute monster in combat... but I think you're not giving Eldrad much credit here.

There are also his own shooting attacks to consider. Mind War, can be deadly with a good dice roll, and has a decent range.

Another thing to consider is, if Vect ever does fail his 2+ invuln save, he will have next to no protection from Eldrad, where as Eldrad's save won't go away.

I say it's too close to call, personally.

Eldrad

He also misplayed Vect, who has 5 attacks base, 6 with the pistol and CCW. Minor compared to the non-fortuned 4++ Eldrad, but still missing one attack.

Then again, Eldrad also has 2 attacks. His staff may be a 2 handed weapon that ignores armor saves and wounds on a 2+, but he also has a pistol and a witchblade that he can use, allowing him to gain a bonus attack, seeing as how Vect will never use his armor until his shield is down, the armor ignoring property of the staff seems a little superfluous.

My feeble and half finished attempt at mathhammer.

Vect will take roughly 7 rounds to kill Eldrad through Fortune and the 3++.

Eldrad will do roughly .9 wounds to Vect per round before saves... My math could be horribly wrong, as I don't normally do the math hammer. And I don't want to have to factor in the chance that vect will fail his save and do all that calculation...

Vect is a monster at CC, Eldrad is a monster at support. And Vect has more wounds and more initiative, so even if Eldrad does get him down to his last wound, Vect still has that last chance to finish him first.

I'm going with Vect for this tournament.

i may have mistyped ...but when eldrad charged he had pretty much nothing else to do. he also was re rolling his saves, but he also did fail fortune twice during the game. bad time for 6's...

dont get me wrong, i like eldrad and eldar, and he's a cool SC...i just think Vect is scarier in CC.

There should be a double elimination, they killed each other option >_>

~Edit~ Just simmed it though, sadly looks like Vect takes Eldrad every round. Eldrad's only hope would be to bring Vect down with a lucky mind war before the fight started. Bummer.

~Edit again~ Didn't take into account certain things with the sim so I did a bit of math hammer by hand. Hoping I remembered all the special quirks of both sides in combat.

It looks interesting to say the least, and i am back on the "Too close to call" team. Here's what I found.

Vect deals a static half a wound per round (Just under anyways) to Eldrad after hits (Rerolls included), Wounds (Rerolls), and Eldrad Saves (More rerolls)

Eldrad however, deals only a measily .167 wounds per round to Vect while his shadowfield is up. Something to note though, once that shadow field goes down, Eldrad becomes the clear winner, as Vect's remaining armour is useless, and Eldrad walks away dealing a full wound per round to Vect.

In short, it looks like the longer these two remain locked in combat, the more the odds start to stack against Vect, as eventually he will fail that save. If it happens to be in the first round, it's over quick. If it's to a mind war roll before they even fully engage, Vect loses. If Eldrad whiffs his psychic tests, rolling triple sixes and losing fortune for a turn, Vect's damage ramps up for two full rounds.

On another note, will all these battles be done on 5th rules, or will the remaining battles that don't finish in time be done on 6th? (I'm voting 5th, to keep things balanced... some guys who lost already may have different results)

the SC version will remain on 5th rules to completion. a rule change halfway through would be unfair. however the next round, wich im thinking will be a vote in "
infantry squad" version will use 6th.

Maybe best HQ Entourage for the next one?

polls opened.

King Pariah wrote:Maybe best HQ Entourage for the next one?

Does that include the HQ character that goes with them?

i'd put my money on eldrad but really its another battle that doesn't end in a normal game... vect has to lose that save but when he does it is over.