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coyotius wrote:

Breotan wrote:

deggreg@yahoo.com wrote:If you want to buy something plastic at a 20% discount at some ghetto independent who isn't going to stand behind what's in the box, that's on you. Reality is that Warhammer isn't a hobby for the poor, it's HELLA expensive..and the right way to do things is to go to a GW store and buy the stuff.

Problem is that a LOT of people don't have an actual GW store anywhere near them. Independents or web orders are about all they have.

winterdyne wrote:I got my Forgeworld event-only Skinwolf today. It's spin-cast. A replacement is already on the way - that can probably tell you what you need to know about it. 3 weeks wait for the first one, at least 2 (I'm told) for the replacement. Interestingly enough there's definitely a talc release agent on it, along with the tempura-esque surface flash in lots of places.

What? I thought they used vacuum chambers for their stuff. If they're spincasting resin it's a major step backward. Can anyone confirm this or is winderdyne (hopefully) mistaken?

Winterdyne posted some info way back on page 68 regarding this.

There was someone else as well about 20-25 pages ago, someone who had experience of casting themselves and pointed out the evidence for what was being used. His conclusion I believe was something to do with the insufficient pressure being used, and a poor grade of resin. Sadly I don't have the inclination to go back through this Bible-sized thread and find it..

If that is the case, it doesn't matter how good the quality control is or not, if there is a fundamental flaw in the way the stuff is being produced. As others have pointed out, it seems to be particular types of model that seem to be vulnerable to it.

whitedragon wrote:

Aerethan wrote:Well, take this for what it is worth. Where Valdsimpaler and I are, there has been Comic Quest for like 25 years. They used to have gaming tables but since they are in a smaller space now they don't. They do however carry the entire line of GW products on top of carrying PP and damn near every D&D book ever made.

3 years ago, GW opened up a store almost literally down the street from Comic Quest(like 4 miles away, long street). So GW could have cared less that Comic Quest had been faithfully and successfully selling their products in the area for decades. GW saw a chance to steal sales directly away from CQ and didn't hesitate to do so(I should also mention that this GW store is directly across the street from a high school).

So for that reason alone, feth GW as a company. I love their games, I love their models, but I absolutely hate their business model and practices. So sure, I'll play in their store as it's the only option until I have my own table built, but I only buy small things there like paint(before the new range which I won't use). I go out of my way to give GW as little money as possible while still enjoying the games.

It's entirely possible that they chose the location because it's across from the High School, and the fact that it's near the LGS store is a pure coincidence. My experience with GW retail is that they don't really pay any attention (for good or ill) to the LGS's, that's all handled by the Trade Sales folks and they rarely interface.

Sorry wrong, GW's MO is to look for successful LGS that sell their products then if it's feasable open a store in close proximity to it. Just ask the Brits about their LFGS scene oh wait....

Edit oh yeah OT...umm Finecast still having problems? Wont touch it with a ten foot pole. Plus they don't make 80's era Leopard2A4's and Bundeswehr (FRG) in finecast thank god.

I just got some fine cast Vangaurd vets.
and well, they are pretty nice. Near flawless. a few warps but they can bet fixed with a little effort.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wrong. Far from flawless, lots bubbles on detail. But noting even i can fix. But one of the chainsword teeth got messed up.
Going to have to find a way to fix it.
I can see how those w/o time on there hands would have this but really this isnt that bad.

That's always how it goes I guess. The first Finecast purchase I made I thought the models were okay too, but you have to get them home and take a really good look at them before you start seeing all the flaws.

Its not totally unworkable. at my pace it will be 2 weeks before i ever prime them.

Ifalna wrote:Advised to post this for additional horror.

It's a goblin! You can tell, right?



Contacted GW for a replacement, waiting to hear back. It's not that the shot is bleaching out the detail, it's that there is pretty much no detail left to take a shot of.

IT'S A SCHOONER!

Seriously though, that is just jacked.

I talked to a GW store employee (Yeah I know), he said that he asked the casting facility manager in Memphis about finecast problems. His reply was that they are using a super quick release agent to cut the time of casting down, this release agent doesn't let the air bubbles properly displace out of the mold. Apparently the benefits of the uber casting time savings out weighs the bad miscast and that GW didn't mind/care of the outrageous returns. Also contributing to miscast is not letting the resin cool and set properly before starting a new batch.

Figures, pretty much every big corporation's policy: speed, speed, speed. Production rates are the most important, feth quality and everything else. They don't care if every model going out the door is complete and utter garbage, so much as they're making a gak ton of them and some of them are selling to people who either don't know better or are willing to invest the extra time fixing feth-ups.

It would be nice if finecast was like BK, made to order.

As someone who casts resin, I can tell you 100% that there isn't a mold release that reduces demold times. There are quicker setting resins with shorter working and demold times, and there are longer setting ones(ideal for fewer bubbles as you have more time to fill the mold and you can mix slowly). There is no such magic thing as a quick set mold release.

There are 3 proper ways to reduce bubbles:
1. Degass the resin. This only works with resins that have rather long working times. This removes any bubbles from the resin after it has been mixed, but doesn't prevent new bubbles from forming during the pouring process.
2. Talcum powder. Dusting the mold with a little talc goes a long way. The powder breaks the surface tension of the resin when it gets into the mold, allowing it to flow better into deep recesses.
3. Pressure casting. This is putting the mold under pressure after the resin has been poured. This forces some bubbles out, and in certain cases at least forces the bubbles inside the resin instead of being on the outside(you may still have miscasts but visually the model should be good). I have the odd time where a bubble forms inside a barrel and it causes a miscast as the barrel falls apart.

From what I can tell, GW doesn't do any of these steps as they all increase the total time from resin mixing to demolding(time= a paid employee).

I suspect that if they even just did the dusting that they would see improvements on bubbles although perhaps not in miscasts as a whole. I also don't think that GW gives a flying feth about bubbles.

Resin casting on the scale that GW expects is just not a good idea. It is incredibly labor intensive with a huge chance for miscasts and errors. I also doubt that any of the casting techs have a real clue as to how to properly cast in resin.

Then again Aerethan what you're describing is gravity casting...spin casting is a whole other animal. In gravity casting, resin goes in, air comes out...in spin casting the air never leaves, its compressed by "centrifugal force" into cut channels (if done properly). But you're right, there is no "mold release" that decreases cure time.

And spin casting resin is one of the dumbest things I've heard of. GW just didn't want to have to sell all their spin casting machines.

Gravity casting isn't rocket science, but it takes experience and trial and error to perfect. Hell FW does it rather "successfully". Why try to reinvent the wheel?

I'd love to see some actual footage of the finecast process.

Agree on all counts.

Aerethan wrote:And spin casting resin is one of the dumbest things I've heard of. GW just didn't want to have to sell all their spin casting machines.

Gravity casting isn't rocket science, but it takes experience and trial and error to perfect. Hell FW does it rather "successfully". Why try to reinvent the wheel?

I'd love to see some actual footage of the finecast process.

I have it on very good authority that all GW/FW casting is now controlled by a single department. This is (I'm told) a contributing factor why the FW 'Finecast' products are coming out so poorly. Complain about it to customer services. Do NOT accept substandard castings. Complaints and replacements ARE being counted, and sufficient volume of this is the only way that any fix will be considered, never mind implemented.

The reasoning behind it is fairly sound; You use the centrifugal force of the spincasting machine to pressurise the resin, compressing any trapped air (much like metal casting). A fast-set resin and a fast pour time (very much like metal) cut the man-hours needed per cast (and all but ensure the process won't work very well). But it saves the company a bucketload of cash - no moulds sitting around with product curing in them, or god forbid occupying expensive pressure chamber time. Save time, save space, save money.

There are resin and mould material combinations where spincasting would most likely work better - a heavier, slower setting resin (perhaps a metal or high density stryene filler), curing to a high shear strength so that a stiffer mould can be used, which would allow a faster spin speed, for longer, equating to more pressure and less bubbles in the cast. A little longer cure time in the mould before pulling the part would also reduce the horrible warps we're seeing. Post-pull curing (curing while warped) is what gives the bent parts that nasty memory. I remember my A-level polymer chemistry well enough to understand the cause of the symptoms I see.

Using a fast set resin with a low shear strength means a softer mould has to be used. Run this too fast and you'll get mould deformation going on as centrifugal forces apply to the mould too, not just the resin in it. Even in a casing, you'd get compression in the outer areas of the mould.

Fixing GW's spin casting method would increase the cost - in material, in mould, in man-hours. I don't see the technique having any chance of mass production viability without a massive drop in quality (which we've seen) whilst maintaining any form of achievable margin for the company in its current distribution model. It'd work on cast-per order, or very low volume 'trickle' releases. The adjustments above would increase the unit cost for sure - possibly to the point where it's actually more expensive than metal.

It's important to understand the sheer scale of GW's operation. Several hundred (is it over a thousand yet?) official stores, worldwide. Many times that in stockists. Simultaneous release of products worldwide (requiring a massive logistics chain). They simply NEED a product they can produce in bulk, quickly, ship out a bulk lot once per release, store locally for a short while, and then get on the shelves. Anything else and the distribution chain would eat all profit from any product line at release.

It boils down to some muppet* saying that spincasting resin with a fast-cure resin would probably work and save the company money, and the beancounters leaping on it as a way to Greater Profits.

Couple this with the 'yes man' culture in GW, and you have a situation where a problem has been introduced to a regime that doesn't encourage anyone to acknowledge problems. This makes even broaching the subject of solutions dangerous if you value your job.

*: The words I use in general conversation are far ruder, but more concise.

Question. Does the resin have a bad effect if filed around you?
should i get a mask or something?

It most certainly not a "good" potential effect.

It's best to do filing/sanding in an area with a lot of ventilation while wearing, at minimum, a dust mask.

An alternative is to keep the model inside a bowl of water while you file/sand it, and the dust will simply collect in there.

hotsauceman1 wrote:Question. Does the resin have a bad effect if filed around you?
should i get a mask or something?

It's not good. Sawing, filing and sanding resin should be done while wearing a mask. I also wear gloves sometimes as I find resin dust irritates my skin too.
Tidy away everything else from your work area before working resin (or wood) and vacuum up afterwards. It's like sawdust / sanding dust - a fine, easily air-caught dust and it will get everywhere.

Breathing any sort of dust or particulate into your lungs is going to be bad for you, it just a question of how bad.

I have a fan facing me to blow dust away, and i have a window opened next to me.

Not nearly good enough. The fan will just blow the dust up into the air - it will take some time to settle. I'm surprised you don't get grainy eyes and a hacking cough. Wear a simple dust filter mask at least.

Ok, im wetting the models and the files. And i do have a weird throat. but i always have that when i wake up.

Personally I wear old ratty clothing when I'm doing my filing and sanding in addition to a dust mask or respirator. When I'm done I strip down and shake out the clothing outside...in another change of clothes of course...haha.

I just wear old ratty clothing. Erm. Most of the time.

This aside, Finecast (as opposed to the harder PU resins we're talking about in the previous few posts) does clean up very nicely with just a knife selection - very little particulate from that. One of the things I like about the material.

winterdyne wrote:*snip*

So in other words it will never get fixed.

Sidstyler wrote:

winterdyne wrote:*snip*

So in other words it will never get fixed.

Doubt it, not without a significant bump in price to the consumer. I can see *that* happening. The question then becomes how high can prices be driven before the bottom falls completely out of the sales figures.

$30 bucks a figure? $40, $50? Sorry, $20 was enough for me.

May as well throw in an update, replacement Gobbo is on the way, but I can't really get too excited till I see him and make sure he actually has a face.

This is holding back a commission so there is quite a lot of rage on both my side and the owners, but at least they sent a replacement pretty quickly after I emailed. I just hope this is the last of it.

hotsauceman1 wrote:Question. Does the resin have a bad effect if filed around you?
should i get a mask or something?

Get a mask. There is no resin dust that is good for you.

hotsauceman1 wrote:Question. Does the resin have a bad effect if filed around you?
should i get a mask or something?

Yeah. No dust of any sort can have a good effect, and if you aren't taking precautions, that's just plain stupid.

Get some ventilation too. Maybe a workbench outside.

Ok, will invest in a mask. I just hope the amount i already didnt affect me.
Sigh, this is why i couldnt do bio-lab, always a hypochondriac
I got some stuff outside. Ill just bring my computer, turn the speakers up and keep it inside where ill keep it.