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Hm, perhaps, I suppose...
But I think she probably does have a good reason for her opinions, she just didn't lay them out. Either way, it's causing debate, which is a good thing for a thread, and should lead to some good points on both sides.
Thanks for the compliment, by the way.

PraetorDave wrote:storm bolter in her left hand...

One barrel. They're both bolt pistols.

Not having come to C:CSM before the current edition, I have to say that I'm fairly happy with generic daemons and most of the other options. There are a few characterful things that I wish had been kept from previous editions- cultists; mutants and chaos hounds from Lost and the Damned; Raptors as Daemonkin instead of taking marks; Veteran Skills for Chosen. OK, that's several things- things that differentiated them from "Marines but with Evil LOLz". Space Marines are mostly already anti-heroes anyway.

However, the background material in the Codex really isn't great; with one exception, the tale of Sergeant Constantinus, it's not compelling about why a Marine would turn rogue or become an Aspiring Champion. You have to dig back to Realms of Chaos, Index Astartes, or Warhammer Fantasy to find interesting stories about Chaos and that make it fun. I couldn't find a good 'hook' for the army until I read Codex: Dark Angels.

While I agree that Cultists should have been retained, I must protest about there being little to like about the fluff. I love the story of Ahriman and the creation of the Rubric Marines, for example. The Red Corsairs also have a neat story (their color scheme is the only thing that bothers me) as a template for a "create your own traitors" counterepoint to DIY chapters.

@Exopheric
That's just it, though. They're not just "marines but evil," as you say. I disagree that most loyalists are anti-heroes; indeed, they are often portrayed as super-heroic at times. The CSM, on the other hand, are whatever you want them to be, and that's what makes them one of my favourite armies. Want an army of misunderstood, aggrieved fallen heroes? You can do that. Want an army of glory-hungry warriors out to honour their bloodthirsty gods? You can do that, too. An army of vicious and sadistic murderers? Looks like you want to be a Night Lord. There is plenty of good fluff to draw upon, too; I especially like the stories of Ahriman and Kharn, and the Red Corsairs have their own cool factor too.

Well, I *did* pick CSM as my first army to get into. The army list is flexible and it doesn't have quite the proliferation of special units and rules that something like, well, Codex Space Marines has. For a beginning player, that's actually a plus. And I do like that it's wide open to interpretation. Looking back through the codex, there are some other things that I find appealing. After reading A Thousand Sons Ahriman's story certainlt became much more interesting; he' s a quite likable character.

Gone for what, twelve hours, and already two more pages? Goddamn, goddamn.

Well anyway, as predicted by Saint Hazard (I have a text file with the order of the factions, so no, I didn't change it because of his prediction), here's:

11: Dark Angels


Once again, I feel bad giving them this rating. I admit I like the majority of the factions, and yet with a rating system like this that's a numbered list, it's hard to be fair.

In this case, though, I think it's merited. I feel much the same about Dark Angels as I do about Black Templars, except I actually prefer Dark Angels a bit more because of their focus on plasma and ranged warfare. Plasma is cool, both from a visual and from a physics perspective (well, technically it's hot), after all, and I have a preference for playing armies which have some focus on shooting (Although, given that I play Orks, obviously it isn't a requirement). Their codex also has a better variety of choices than the BT codex I feel, including the awesome all-terminator army. They've suffered a bit with age, and yet they still have a good amount of variety to help cover for that.

Yet, for all of that, they're still kinda languishing behind any of the modern codices, left in the dust to suffer from age. Their fluff feels the same way, as well-- their focus on secrecy has resulted in us not knowing that much about them or their "dark secret", which while attractive to some people makes the army less desirable to me. Some secrets are necessary for the sake of a continued narrative, but something feels off about the Dark Angels' narrative. Still, at least they have one and they are, very slowly, moving forward and trying to resolve their dark secret (in secret of course), where with the Black Templars it feels are kinda stuck in stasis (which again is appealing to some people, but not necessarily to me).

All in all, despite anything I've said here, I think DA are a good mid-level codex, IE, they aren't spectacular, but they do look fun, and have a good amount of somewhat interesting fluff. They need more work done on them, but I could say (and have said) the same thing about any non-fifth edition codex.

Well, as a DA player I think I can accept that.

Interesting. The whole "secretive society who refuse to trust other chapters" thing is actually one of the things I personally like about them. Goes to show how a single aspect can have a radically different effect on two opinions.

Though you're right in that they have suffered a bit with age. I just don't want to see them get the Matt Ward treatment with their next codex, and suddenly we see Ezekial surfing atop a Land Speeder chariot pullet by jetbikes while Dreadnoughts armed with six autocannons arrive by Deep Strike by burrowing like Mawlocs, then grow wings... but not before twenty Terminators disembark from the Dreadnought and assault the same turn.

That said, I predict Daemonhunters are next.

Personally I just hope they focus on the ranged combat aspect, and keep the all-terminator army. Terminators are fun to fight against, and kinda fun to use, too (as I've found from proxying a large terminator army before, one whose army list I posted in the army list section a few months ago), although I should note I still despise deathstar armies. But with an all-terminator army, with multiple units of terminators, they have a lot of potential to be a highly elite army rather than a deathstar army.

I like Grey Knights for the same reason, there's just something awesome about Grey Knights, and when I get to their rating (no, Saint Hazard, you didn't get it right this time ) I'll discuss that something.

Melissia wrote:Personally I just hope they focus on the ranged combat aspect, and keep the all-terminator army.

The ranged combat aspect is something I hope they keep too, primarily because if my army is reduced to Green Blood Angels someone is getting taken to the Rock.


In other, unrelated news, am I the only one who gets a warm fuzzy feeling from having the 250th post in a thread?

Damn! The Oracle lied to me.

Well, let's see what's next, and I'll make my next prediction afterwards.

I agree that a future DA book should emphasize range. It's not that DA don't like getting stuck in but I think of them as being expert swordsmen who wouldn't lower themselves to duel an Ork. And there are enough in-your-face Marines already.

Agreed there, we have two up-close SM armies on the go. A third is not really necessary, and it would be nice to have a shooty army that isn't T'au.

Melissia wrote:Plasma is cool, both from a visual and from a physics perspective (well, technically it's hot),

yuck yuck yuck

Save deamonhunters for post 666

Just discovered this thread. Glad you're doing it, Forum was getting a bit boring.

@Gorskar: Power armor will always tempt players to go in for HtH, so I doubt a Marine army will every be shooty on the level of Tau.

Hmm, there is that, I guess. I expect it's why so many MEQ armies favour that style of play.

Well, that, and the high WS/S/T/I and fact that at least two MEQ armies are heavily focused towards it...

MEQ lends itself to close combat, as there its higher stats offer the best benefit. But that doesn't mean it can't create a capable non-assault army.

It doesn't hurt that 5th ed. lends itself to assault, either. Maybe 6th will be shooty and we can have new DA in 2012--after the latest Nilla Marines book, of course.

Melissia wrote:MEQ lends itself to close combat, as there its higher stats offer the best benefit. But that doesn't mean it can't create a capable non-assault army.

True enough, it's a style used by my Iron Warriors to some effect. It's just MEQ do seem to have more capability in assault, despite their proficiency in shooting at people.

I'm so happy orks and daemons haven't made it yet...I find them both fascinating in fluff and play

As someone who dislikes the space marines (mini scale too small, armour too bland\outdated imo), if I had to make an army I would use the "look" of the Dark Angels. The robe\armour look is pretty sweet.

Stupid marines

Truescale Marines wouldn't be able to get cover saves (I jest... kinda).

While I whole heartedly LOVE CSM, mostly Khorne although I like the original fluff on Khorne better than the purely mindless. But nothing says you can't have regular CSM worship Khorne the boxed set even comes with fluffy Khorne icon options. I do think CSM is largely lacking good writing. Basing things largely in the codex off of Black Legion that's failed 13 black crusades isn't it? Doesn't exactly make someone a scary foe.

As far as complaints about CSM I think it kind of sucks not to get something like land speeders or an equivalent. I don't even know what they do I just think they look cool. Since CSM is still in 4th edition (I'm hoping that's the reason at least), land raiders only hold 10 units instead of 12 which without some sort of explanation makes zero sense. I also think Kharn should still have eternal warrior like he used to. But I also roll a ton of 1's.

PS. My first choice would've been IG, Orks or SM for an army. But I'm poor so IG was out of the question. Out of my two friends I'm playing 40k with, one's running SM and one's running Orks. I wanted to do something different.

You wanted to be different from your friend, who was playing Space Marines, so you decided to play Space Marines.

Chaos seems quite a bit different from plain SM especially when it comes to options and the two don't exactly look alike. I wanted something with a ballistic skill and guns that wasn't guys with cone headed helmets. Granted when I picked my army I hadn't seen the cool looking Eldar Rangers. Of course on a side note I'm running less shooty just by chance, and more zerkers.

To be fair, you drop a rock in the army lists and you'll eventually find a Space marine clone.

(Go Deathguard *shifty eyes*)