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'The Eldar were using swords. It's never said, to my knowledge, that they actually had any sophisticated technology or way to make records at the time they facing the C'tan and the Necrons. '

If all the Eldar had were swords, there would BE no eldar. The eldar were created by the Old Ones, who were still around at this point in the fluff. Do you think they just said 'now hit them, while we and our advanced as hades tech sit over here?'
That was what they told the orks

Non-powerweapon swords vs Necrons is a futile and brief battle. I doubt you could even significantly hurt them- An equivilent might be the Conquistadors vs the locals. The Conquistadors lost a few men for every hundred or more they killed, due to far superior armour and weapons, not to mention terror I think more died of disease than wounds.

And that's assuming that the Necrons forgot to bring an Orb, Monoliths, Destroyers that can fly above sword reach etc..

I think we can assume that either the eldar had a decent level of tech, or were provided with high tech wargear



'Personally I quite enjoy the idea of a human being the biggest power in the galaxy. It makes a bit of a change to "oh, this species are better than humans in every way, albeit a tad arrogant" and "the humans can't possibly match their numbers and bloodlust" stereotypes that seem to permeate fantasy and to an extent science-fiction (or maybe just science-fantasy - never really understand the distinction myself; surely science-fantasy comes under science-fiction?).'

Humans Uber Alles (sp?) is just as common a trope in SF. I agree with you that science fantasy is a subset of Sci-fi. A lot of 'hard-scifi' fans would disagree, but who cares

I'm ok with a human being seriously potent, even being the best (i suppose..) but the 'i bunch up your best guy like used kleenex' writing style and the Fanboys (oh the fanboys) that then smacktalk every xeno race, at every game rub me a bit raw.

If 40K had the xenos factions equally represented with humanity i would have less of a problem with Humanity being touted as being best (by humanity) but when ALL the Black Library fluff (barring about 2 books i think) and 90% of the codex fluff is doing it it gets a little less 'wow, that's heroic!' and more 'and the latest tall tale is...' especially when a good chunk of the fluff in the Xenos codexes is doing it too..

It's like going fishing with a guy, and listening to him telling you about this huge fish he reeled in. The first time you're impressed (even accounting for story inflation) and think that it's pretty cool. The seven hundredth time, it's getting a bit stale, especially when he doesn't tell you about the ones he lost, and interrupts your own stories to tell more of his

*edit for spelling/clarity*

Gotta be Yarrick. He's a bawws.

I have to agree that Yarrick is a badass, though he's about #3 on my badass list.

Anyone who can survive being run over by an ork battlefortress is ok in my book

Yarrick is the galaxy's toughest senior citizen...but Ghazzie let him live.

Ghazgul just fits the bill as the greatest warrior...not demi-god, or stellar god, or some weird re-birthing possesive s&M freak, just a good old fashioned warrior, that rose from nowhere, and became the greatest Ork threat to the IOM , and he even has a code of honor ( so to speak ).

And as a side note I voted for him due to his actual game/battlefield antics I observed at a Mega game many years ago, after he had been stepped on by a Reaver Titan, the Ghaz then proceeded to inflict enough damage on it to destroy the thing. ( we all imagined that with a backdrop of a burning exploding titan, old Ghazgul came walking outta the flame , lit up a squig cigar and said..."Next! " ), since thats what the guy using Ghaz did .

Very cool character, and I never fail enjoy playing with him or against him.

And there we have my #1

Ghazzy is awesome.

It always seems to come as a suprise when he beats down some other army's uber-bloke, at least to it's owner

Ascalam wrote:
If all the Eldar had were swords, there would BE no eldar. The eldar were created by the Old Ones, who were still around at this point in the fluff. Do you think they just said 'now hit them, while we and our advanced as hades tech sit over here?'

They were capable of using their full pyschic might before the Warp became as disturbted and filled Warp predators as it is now. Until the Enslavers managed to break through, technological weapons may have been fairly obsolete. Even if they did have the technology, most of it would likely be weaponised, not for recording information.

That was what they told the orks

I hear Orks (well, Krork) were designed to fight the Enslaver Plague, not the Necrons?

Non-powerweapon swords vs Necrons is a futile and brief battle. I doubt you could even significantly hurt them- An equivilent might be the Conquistadors vs the locals. The Conquistadors lost a few men for every hundred or more they killed, due to far superior armour and weapons, not to mention terror I think more died of disease than wounds.

If the natives were capable of tearing the Conquistadors apart with their minds, sure. Even then, the Conquistadors enlisted a lot of the locals to fight with them. The Aztec's were hated by pretty much all of their neighbours (and Cortez was crafty besides).

I think we can assume that either the eldar had a decent level of tech, or were provided with high tech wargear

Possibly, but I doubt it would be useful for accurately storing information. If it was and they still had it, why would the Harlequin's be such an important part of their history?

Humans Uber Alles (sp?) is just as common a trope in SF. I agree with you that science fantasy is a subset of Sci-fi. A lot of 'hard-scifi' fans would disagree, but who cares

I ususally find that humans generally greater determination or some such not actually manifest ability. The aliens typically seem to be stronger, more advanced or psychic.

I'm ok with a human being seriously potent, even being the best (i suppose..) but the 'i bunch up your best guy like used kleenex' writing style and the Fanboys (oh the fanboys) that then smacktalk every xeno race, at every game rub me a bit raw.

Fair enouh. I see your point.

'They were capable of using their full pyschic might before the Warp became as disturbted and filled Warp predators as it is now. Until the Enslavers managed to break through, technological weapons may have been fairly obsolete. Even if they did have the technology, most of it would likely be weaponised, not for recording information. '

'Know your enemy' ring a bell? If you can't record information on an enemy it's far harder to beat them.

'I hear Orks (well, Krork) were designed to fight the Enslaver Plague, not the Necrons? '

You hear this where? In the Necron codex they're mentioned as being used vs the Necrons.

'f the natives were capable of tearing the Conquistadors apart with their minds, sure. Even then, the Conquistadors enlisted a lot of the locals to fight with them. The Aztec's were hated by pretty much all of their neighbours (and Cortez was crafty besides).'

Um, who says the eldar were all zoanthropes in disguise? I've never read anything of the sort

"Possibly, but I doubt it would be useful for accurately storing information. If it was and they still had it, why would the Harlequin's be such an important part of their history? '

Because the Harlequins guard the Black Library, and don't even let other eldar access it much. Also because the eldar do everything in a stylized fashion.

'I ususally find that humans generally greater determination or some such not actually manifest ability. The aliens typically seem to be stronger, more advanced or psychic. '

Sometimes. Other times the humans are the posterchild, and therefore all the other races are marginalized to make the humans the inportant ones (Manifest Destiny etc)..




'

I voted for Ghazghkull but you are missing out so many characters like :

Asdrubeal Vect

Lady Malys

The phoinex lords

kharn the betrayer

Captian shrike

The will go on for ages

You probably shouldn't have put it as a pole

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Ascalam wrote:
The eldar records were laid down at the time. They are probably a lot better than myth, though still not as good as observation directly of the Ctan at full strength by a contemporary viewer. They are kept in the black library.

The Eldar were using swords. It's never said, to my knowledge, that they actually had any sophisticated technology or way to make records at the time they facing the C'tan and the Necrons.

Given that people keep arging that he's using the time to benchpress khorne while dropkicking tzeentch over nurgle not really. Especially since the fluff is edging towards him being reborn/having planned this all along/etc..

Fair enough. I wouldn't really say he's quite that powerful, but possibly more powerful in a different way; whereas the Chaos Gods have their power disperse through hordes of Daemon's and fight each other, the Emperor primarily focusses on relatively few tasks. I don't really think the fluff is implying he may have planned for this myself. Reborn, maybe, but it's likely something will keep his power in check or be powerful enough to counter it.

The fluff on the emperor's battle is similar. The difference is the emphasis.Was the emperor fending off Horus, unwilling to hurt him or was he getting mulched and made a last ditch, desperate attack.. very different story

Personally I quite enjoy the idea of a human being the biggest power in the galaxy. It makes a bit of a change to "oh, this species are better than humans in every way, albeit a tad arrogant" and "the humans can't possibly match their numbers and bloodlust" stereotypes that seem to permeate fantasy and to an extent science-fiction (or maybe just science-fantasy - never really understand the distinction myself; surely science-fantasy comes under science-fiction?).

I agree with the "Human being the most baddest" thing. They are the species who has probably fought the most, since they have had MAJOR conflict with each and every race and have (yes, even including space elves) had the most conflict wit chaos. They fought the Heresy, they single-handedly hold an entire dimesnsion's worth of evil, twisted, daemonic beings at bay, and they do it WHILE fighting the beings of the material dimension. (Those of the Milky Way anyways...Time to expand!) (yes I am thinking of you, Nid players).

Fantasy=Magic, Elves, Orcs, swords and shield etc.

Sci-fi=Space ships, Lasers, Aliens etc.

Sci-fa=elements of both, space elves, space orks, lasers and magic together etc.

sound familiar?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Ascalam

Swords vs. Necrons IS largely useless, however in dead men walking the Krieg guardsmen managed an impressive amount of bayonet kills (in the eyes, damage gauss power cells etc. etc.)

Also, the de-centralization of the IoM makes the Uber humanity more agreeable I find, sort of like how it is said that unified orks=auto win.

Unified humanity = auto win too .

If it hadn't been for the Heresy, the GC would have conquered the Milky Way, and only Necrons and Nids would have survived, Necrons since you don't find them, they find you, and Nids since they come extragalactic but they WOULD die since the Emprah + Primarchs + Legions would not have to deal w/ chaos (as much, since with the xenos dead, 2,000,000 + Astartes, no chaos astartes etc. etc. they would probably have humanity launch crusades into the Warp).

With a Centralized, unified, personally lead by the Emprah, using the Webway instead of the Warp for travel, the Tau would be doomed. The warp storms of the Perdus rift wouldn't have affected the IoM, and the IoM wouldn't have stolen my cookie.

Go suck a(n) ***** Horus.

'Swords vs. Necrons IS largely useless, however in dead men walking the Krieg guardsmen managed an impressive amount of bayonet kills (in the eyes, damage gauss power cells etc. etc.) '

Did the author remember that they self repair at all? The only part of Dead Men Walking i've read is the sample with the flayed ones. It sounded like a good book

Unified humanity is about as likelt as Unified Ork IMO. They keep having to execute worlds for having turned away from the Emperor etc.. Problem with doing that is that you have to KEEP doing it..

I would love to see the fluff having the IOM devolve into civil war, with Terra and about half the IOM against renegade guard and astartes unde a new 'emperor' that they either see as a reborn Big E (wasn't there something about Sebastian Thor thereabouts) or as a replacement for the corpsesicle

It would explain why almost every game i see at tournament is Marine vs Marine, or Marine vs Guard in the ruins of an imperial world (make some alien scenery already, GW !) ..

Old gregg! that is all

Ascalam wrote:'Swords vs. Necrons IS largely useless, however in dead men walking the Krieg guardsmen managed an impressive amount of bayonet kills (in the eyes, damage gauss power cells etc. etc.) '

Did the author remember that they self repair at all? The only part of Dead Men Walking i've read is the sample with the flayed ones. It sounded like a good book

Unified humanity is about as likelt as Unified Ork IMO. They keep having to execute worlds for having turned away from the Emperor etc.. Problem with doing that is that you have to KEEP doing it..

I would love to see the fluff having the IOM devolve into civil war, with Terra and about half the IOM against renegade guard and astartes unde a new 'emperor' that they either see as a reborn Big E (wasn't there something about Sebastian Thor thereabouts) or as a replacement for the corpsesicle

It would explain why almost every game i see at tournament is Marine vs Marine, or Marine vs Guard in the ruins of an imperial world (make some alien scenery already, GW !) ..

The best way I can see that happening is if the Illuminati decides that it is time to kill the Emprah and bring him back to life. That would work on so many levels...

I wish that the fluff-writers would make up some new names though..

The Illuminati? Really? *sigh*

Killing and possibly raising the emperor would work for me, as it would at least break us loose from 40K Groundhog Day

Ascalam wrote:I wish that the fluff-writers would make up some new names though..

The Illuminati? Really? *sigh*

Killing and possibly raising the emperor would work for me, as it would at least break us loose from 40K Groundhog Day

Yeah I know...I was disappointed in them re-using the name too...prbly one of the writers was part of that organisation.

Also, I think wh40k should have like an exodus. One per race.

IoM: Leman Russ returns from the warp with the fruit from the tree of life and heals the Emperor, who then heals RG and finds the other primarchs who are M.I.A and re-united the Imperium and launches GV v2.0. Somtin like dat.

Eldar: Ynnead is born and all the Eldar unite, the avatars are re-united in Khaine, the laughing god returns to reality, and that Eldar goddess (I forget her name) who was trapped by Nurgle but escapes (Princess Leia-Jabba the Hutt-esque) and the Eldar Pwns everybody.

Orks: Ghazzy just get bigger and bigger and ends up uniting all the Orks. Green floods the galaxy yadayada.

Tau:...let me think...nope, they're just too small

Nids: eat everything

DE: Orgasm so hard that Slaanesh manifests physically...IDK what I'm talking about either.

Chaos: Black Crusade-a-thon.

Necrons: um...they wake up?

etc. etc. etc.

GW could just wait until the end of the series and then tell us that it was all just a reading from the Emperor's Tarot, a farseer vision something like that...

Ascalam wrote:

The Illuminati? Really? *sigh*

Well since warhammer 40K is set in the future of our universe, I would say that the Illuminati is still around pulling all the strings like they are doing right now.

If they weren't such an overused and hackneyed plot device i would be ok with it

Ascalam wrote:If they weren't such an overused and hackneyed plot device i would be ok with it

Yeah even Marvel comics have their version of it. I think that is their goal though. The use of the word Illuminati has become almost stupid and silly. No one could possibly believe they exist now right?

Illuminati the Masquerade

Illuminati! Emo-psycho in disguise.... (to transformers theme music)

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio ... (i guess )

regarding Lucius, he'll last only until he gets fragged with an ordinance barrage and the gunner doesn't know what he hit

Ascalam wrote:Illuminati the Masquerade

Illuminati! Emo-psycho in disguise.... (to transformers theme music)

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio ... (i guess )

If you look, I mean really look, they're everywhere. This is probably just another one of their attempts to get into our heads...http://antinwomillita.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=84041680

Nothing wrong with a little conspiracy theory to lighten an otherwise dull evening

Ascalam wrote:Nothing wrong with a little conspiracy theory to lighten an otherwise dull evening

Dude.... Please start using Dakka's quote system, or even the multi-quote system, because it is incredibly annoying to read your posts and look for your argument instead of someone else's post.

And that could have been handled much more politely by using Dakka's PM system.

I'm usually posting using th quick reply box, as the system at work has a bad habit of crashing if it has to go back and forth on pages (ancient computer).

If it offends you that much i'll try to get this hunk of junk to let me do it without crashing.

Just gonna put Kaldor Draigo out there...he is just walking around THE WARP killing everything, literally everything!

Goldenfistcrusader wrote:Just gonna put Kaldor Draigo out there...he is just walking around THE WARP killing everything, literally everything!

1. So did Lysander. L.Y.S.A.N.D.E.R.

2. If he was killing literally everything than there wouldn'y be any daemons, CGs, or CSMs.

hi i need to know who the hell is on the cover of storm of iron is it honsou or kroeger? or niether

the pope155 wrote:hi i need to know who the hell is on the cover of storm of iron is it honsou or kroeger? or niether

Methinks Honsou, since IIRC the helmet is off and for half book Kroeger is forced to wear a helmet due to not being Kroeger.

Plus Honsou is the main protagonist so...yeah.

BTW the Honsou vs. Castellan Vauban fight was prbly the best part of the book 4 me.

I like Coteaz! he expects everyone, but no one expects him!

No one expects the imeprial inquisition!

Although, i would have put Skulltaker on this list. He's Kharn, but daemonic!

im2randomghgh wrote:

the pope155 wrote:hi i need to know who the hell is on the cover of storm of iron is it honsou or kroeger? or niether

Methinks Honsou, since IIRC the helmet is off and for half book Kroeger is forced to wear a helmet due to not being Kroeger.

Plus Honsou is the main protagonist so...yeah.

BTW the Honsou vs. Castellan Vauban fight was prbly the best part of the book 4 me.

it's actually Castlemayn Forrix first captain of the Iron Warriors

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

the pope155 wrote:hi i need to know who the hell is on the cover of storm of iron is it honsou or kroeger? or niether

Methinks Honsou, since IIRC the helmet is off and for half book Kroeger is forced to wear a helmet due to not being Kroeger.

Plus Honsou is the main protagonist so...yeah.

BTW the Honsou vs. Castellan Vauban fight was prbly the best part of the book 4 me.

it's actually Castlemayn Forrix first captain of the Iron Warriors

Explain your thinking.