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If you wanted to put the Tau down you wouldn't send Black Templar you would send Guard. They style of warfare would require more troops and equipment than a Chapter can field.

The space dance game wouldn't happen either. If it was that simple the IoM would of done it years ago. Plus the dangers of Warp travel are very real... The Cadians that arrived 150 years late for example...

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
Tau don't have battleships. Their most advanced naval assets fail to match low-end cruisers. Battlefleet Gothic is a game, wherein balance is more important than staying true to fluff. Taking stats from it at face value is as silly as, say, assuming that a lasgun's range is around 100', when it's greater than 500 meters.

Please point me to where in fluff that it says that Tau ships are inferior to 'low end cruisers'.

Particularly since in fluff they are able to jam Imperial targeting auspexes quite effectively.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
A scant two regiments take a vast swathe of Tau space, and turn a Sept world into a charred no-man's-land during a protracted stalemate. Two regiments is somewhere in the range of ten to forty thousand troops, by the way.

Except the part where they didn't do that, the fluff says they didn't do that, (hell it NAMES more then 3 regiments) and you can't raze a world if you get bogged down on just one continent. What next, the Tau abandon the greater good, recognizing Robute Gulliman as their spiritual liege?

Brother Coa wrote:
How so?
He shred a lot of Tau infantry and one 88....
Don't see any problem there...

Earlier he becomes a space marine despite being WAY out of puberty if his Schwarzenegger build is anything to go by, and that's just the start...

Brother Coa wrote:
Oh I get it, you where referring to SYSTEM fleet. Well let me tell you SECTOR fleet is bigger ( Cadian sector ) and SEGMENTUM fleet is much more bigger...
It's quite normal for a star system to have 5 - 12 battleships, segmentum fleet count in thousands.... They still outnumber the Tau....

*sigh* I can see why mods exist now, since the level of stupid here just hit 'Epic'.

Battlefeet Cadia (as an example) is a Sector Battlefleet in Segmentum Obscurus. It even has special rules in BFG:A. If by 'system fleet' you mean the System Defense Fleet, then you get to be extra double wrong, as SDF's are limited to non-warp capable craft and defense platforms.

I do however, find your idiocy amusing.

BaronIveagh wrote:Over all, I think the tau would be tipped off and waiting for the BTs, personally. While I don't doubt they would make an impression, the problem is that they'd be directly assaulting a heavilly fortified position where they would certainly not be the superior side, and being Space Marines means your WORSE then IN in a space battle (as enforced by Inq decree).

Since when does the Black Templars care about anything anyone else tells them they have to do? Besides, they have DOZENS of Battle-Barges, at least one of them being a heavily upgraded pre-Heresy Battle-Barge. DOZENS. That's AT LEAST 24 battle-barges, with an untold number of Strike Cruisers and support ships. But I'm sure the Tau would just be able to sit back, launch some fighters and obliterate the escorts with their bombers at their leisure...

If a Tigershark can take down a Titan and make three more run for their life.( Taros Camp.) Then the tau could defend forever. Besides We got our own codex so say that to the space dwarf s

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Besides, they have DOZENS of Battle-Barges, at least one of them being a heavily upgraded pre-Heresy Battle-Barge. DOZENS. That's AT LEAST 24 battle-barges, with an untold number of Strike Cruisers and support ships. But I'm sure the Tau would just be able to sit back, launch some fighters and obliterate the escorts with their bombers at their leisure...

At 9k battle brothers, you're looking at no more then 21, actually, if the few example fleets we have for space marines are anything to go by. Which isn't bad, that's all the battlebarges that took part in the 13th Black Crusade for the Imperium.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Since when does the Black Templars care about anything anyone else tells them they have to do?

Ironically, I tried that vary argument during the FAQ2010 development in the great Space Marine Lance debate. It did not convince.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
A scant two regiments take a vast swathe of Tau space, and turn a Sept world into a charred no-man's-land during a protracted stalemate. Two regiments is somewhere in the range of ten to forty thousand troops, by the way.

For umpteenth time: Damocles Gulf Crusade had NINETEEN (19) Guards regiments. NOT two. There were seven regiments from Brimlock alone.

How much Tau space they conquered?

-Garrus and Kleist colonies (Imperial colonies which had co-operated with Tau).
-Hydass system (uninhabited). Fleet action, Tau are outnumbered and withdraw after losing one cruiser.
-Syl'kell, small Tau colony, first time they meet Tau ground forces. Some heavy fighting until Tau evacuate key personnel.
-Viss'el, tiny Tau colony, destroyed by orbital bombardment
-after that they stumbled upon Dal'yth.

Two small colonies and couple of aligned alien worlds are hardly "vast swathe of Tau Space".

Of course, all those worlds (and more) were retaken by Tau after Crusade withdrew.

Source: Tau Codex (3rd ed), Page 58.

BaronIveagh wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Besides, they have DOZENS of Battle-Barges, at least one of them being a heavily upgraded pre-Heresy Battle-Barge. DOZENS. That's AT LEAST 24 battle-barges, with an untold number of Strike Cruisers and support ships. But I'm sure the Tau would just be able to sit back, launch some fighters and obliterate the escorts with their bombers at their leisure...

At 9k battle brothers, you're looking at no more then 20, actually, if the few example fleets we have for space marines are anything to go by.

Codex says dozens of Battle-Barges, thus it is dozens of Battle-Barges.

BaronIveagh wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Since when does the Black Templars care about anything anyone else tells them they have to do?

Ironically, I tried that vary argument during the FAQ2010 development in the great Space Marine Lance debate. It did not convince.

Games have to take balance into account. Buffing SM Lances could have had some kind of massive effect on balance or something. I wouldn't know, as I haven't ever read the BFG rulebook, nor played the game.

Here are the relevant entries for Tau capital ships from lexicanum

The Gal'leath class battleship (known as the Explorer among the Imperials) was the first major interstellar vessel developed by the Tau. Compared to the average speed of an Imperial ship in the warp, the Explorer could barely approach a fifth of this speed. It is also significantly less armed, and armoured, compared to most battleships. It does have a massive cargo capacity however and is much cheaper to produce than other ships of similar tonnage. Indeed, it was only the advent of war with the Orks that finally made the Tau design an alternate vessel for interstellar combat, a role to which the Explorer is ill suited to undertake alone.1,2

The Or'es El'leath class battleship is the largest ship of the Kor'Or'Vesh, the newest generation of Tau ships. Also named the Custodian it retains the heavy carrier ability of its predecessor, the Gal'leath, and adds an array of port and starboard Railgun batteries and Ion Cannons, has improved engine output and shielding capabilities and sports Deflector technology which significantly improves the armour value of the prow.1

The elegant design of the Or'es El'leath causes it to lack the durability of other Battleships, being more akin to a Grand Cruiser's hull value.

So when the canonical dozens of battle barges drop out of warp - they are met by? Because I haven't seen anything to imply that the vast majority of the Tau fleet is waiting around their colonies in the Gulf. Also, I am looking at page 46 of the Tau Empire codex, and I am seeing... Commander Shadowsun.

So the Imperials take out Farsight and his dudes on the far side of the Gulf, which quite probably never makes it to the Tau at large, cross the Gulf with 12+ battle barges and however many strike cruisers and escorts, and somehow the Tau see this coming, rally their entire fleet and meet them? Sorry, because after arriving in system, and seeing this mighty tau fleet, they could still jump out after a couple hours at most, and outrun the Tau to wherever.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Codex says dozens of Battle-Barges, thus it is dozens of Battle-Barges.

You do realize that it says '...dozens of battlebarges, strike cruisers, and other craft...' (codex black templars, pg 8) not that they have dozens of battlebarges alone.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Games have to take balance into account. Buffing SM Lances could have had some kind of massive effect on balance or something. I wouldn't know, as I haven't ever read the BFG rulebook, nor played the game.

Actually, it was to give them lances at all. The idea on the table was to allow SM to swap a str 3 bombardment cannon for a str 2 lance for free, which is, balance wise, correct (both having exactly the same firepower and range, the trade off being that the lance doesn't have to roll on the gunnery table, while the BC crits more often). The counter argument was that it would be a cold day in hell before a space marine was allowed an anti-ship weapon due to a (IMHO) rather dubious interpretation of a single line in the Blue Book. The result was that for five points, they could take a str 1 lance, so that they had lances, but that they would suck so hard no one would ever take them other then for fluff reasons.


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Bromsy wrote:
The elegant design of the Or'es El'leath causes it to lack the durability of other Battleships, being more akin to a Grand Cruiser's hull value.

That doesn't mean much considering that Grand Cruisers are linebreakers designed to smash through enemy formations and are quite able to go toe to toe with the heaviest battleships. In game terms, it has 2 hit points less.

And for a really non-durable battleship, please see the Imperium's Invincible class Fast Battleship. It has the hull integrity of a cruiser.

Bromsy wrote:
So when the canonical dozens of battle barges drop out of warp - they are met by? Because I haven't seen anything to imply that the vast majority of the Tau fleet is waiting around their colonies in the Gulf. Also, I am looking at page 46 of the Tau Empire codex, and I am seeing... Commander Shadowsun.

Read read Shadowsun's entry. She does something that would be impossible without FTL communication. And, no, the dozens of battle barges are not canonical, read the whole sentence in Codex:BT.

Bromsy wrote:
So the Imperials take out Farsight and his dudes on the far side of the Gulf, which quite probably never makes it to the Tau at large, cross the Gulf with 12+ battle barges and however many strike cruisers and escorts, and somehow the Tau see this coming, rally their entire fleet and meet them? Sorry, because after arriving in system, and seeing this mighty tau fleet, they could still jump out after a couple hours at most, and outrun the Tau to wherever.

Granted, they could make a single emergency jump that way, however, BL novels descriptions of what it does to your warp drives suggest that it's a bad idea. And by 'bad idea' I mean 'geller field failure' 'warp drive implosion' bad idea. When specifically applied to a Space MArine strike cruiser, as happens in Emperor's Finest, it's implied that without a working drydock, they won't be jumping again for several months.

BaronIveagh wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Codex says dozens of Battle-Barges, thus it is dozens of Battle-Barges.

You do realize that it says '...dozens of battlebarges, strike cruisers, and other craft...' (codex black templars, pg 8) not that they have dozens of battlebarges alone.

I read that as them having dozens of each, although I could be wrong. Also note that it states that that's the composition of one Crusade Fleet, and that there's more than one of those.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Actually, it was to give them lances at all. The idea on the table was to allow SM to swap a str 3 bombardment cannon for a str 2 lance for free, which is, balance wise, correct (both having exactly the same firepower and range, the trade off being that the lance doesn't have to roll on the gunnery table, while the BC crits more often). The counter argument was that it would be a cold day in hell before a space marine was allowed an anti-ship weapon due to a (IMHO) rather dubious interpretation of a single line in the Blue Book. The result was that for five points, they could take a str 1 lance, so that they had lances, but that they would suck so hard no one would ever take them other then for fluff reasons.

Just as a point of interest, what was this single line interpretation, and why were "they" (whoever they are) would be so hostile to SMs having anti-ship weapons. The Eternal Crusader certainly has lance batteries, and while it's a tad special, it stands to reason that there are other BBs with them too.

Codex Tau has a bigger layout of the Damocles Gulf Crusade, Codex Tau Empire talks about it for a paragraph. I remember the Imperial Fists,Iron Hands, Ultra Marines, Templars, White Scars and the Emperors Scythes being involved, and IG (Brimlock Dragoons were mentioned, I think the Harkonian Warhawks were mentioned too. The crusade pretty much smashed into Tau space, nuked a couple of outposts from Orbit before getting stuck at the Dalyth Sept for months. Eventually the crusade was called off for two reasons. The appearance of a nid hive fleet, and the Imperial Commanders in charge did not think they had the proper reinforcements to finish the job. I should note though that the Tau crippled and destoryed several of the Imperial ships before the main battle even started mostly to trickery and long range firepower. So the Crusade was not all it could have been when the main battle began.

as for the supposed Tau Air superiority.


the Tau have only Manta heavy landing craft and Barracuda assault boats for air power. all Devilfish chassis based vehicles too(they are able to gain orbit)

none of these are designed to engage other air targets effectivly.



the Imperium has Thunderbolts whose sole purpose is Air Interception.

Barracuda's would be out maneuvered quickly, Mantas simply couldn't bring their guns to bear on the Imperium's fast and nimble fighters.


Marauders are also fast, but not as fast as Thunderbolts.



the Imperium has waged war for 10,000 years against the most horrific foes, and humanity has been waging war among the stars for another 20,000 years beyond that. 30,000 years of expierience in warfare gives mankind a distinct advantage.

the Tau were still hitting each other with sticks while the Imperium was locked in battle with the Dark Gods themselves.



the Imperium doesn't just use swords to fight. their main fighting force uses ranged weaponry. those forces that prefer melee have ways to get into melee very quickly.

Grey Templar wrote:as for the supposed Tau Air superiority.


the Tau have only Manta heavy landing craft and Barracuda assault boats for air power. all Devilfish chassis based vehicles too(they are able to gain orbit)

none of these are designed to engage other air targets effectivly.



the Imperium has Thunderbolts whose sole purpose is Air Interception.

Barracuda's would be out maneuvered quickly, Mantas simply couldn't bring their guns to bear on the Imperium's fast and nimble fighters.

Marauders are also fast, but not as fast as Thunderbolts.

.

/o\ The Baracuda is the Interceptor of the Tau airforce ( there are also Remora stealth drones, but they are less iconic ), it is in almost all aspects comparable to the Thunderbolt ( slightly slower but also slightly more manoeuvrable, less aa firepower but it's ion canon has a longer range, source: IA III and Apocalypse ).
You were possibly thinking of the Tigershark, which fullfills the groundattack role.

either way, the Tau don't have Air Superiority.

the Battle for the Skies rages on.

Grey Templar wrote:either way, the Tau don't have Air Superiority.

In campaigns like Taros, to where both sides had to transport their aerial assets, air battles were fairly evenly matched. Invading a major Tau world, one can expect to meet whole different level of air capability and defence systems.

but that would be because of existing Tau defenses.

the Imperium would bring the proper amount of reinforcements to make it an even match(and the Imperium always wins when the matches are equal)

Backfire wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:either way, the Tau don't have Air Superiority.

In campaigns like Taros, to where both sides had to transport their aerial assets, air battles were fairly evenly matched. Invading a major Tau world, one can expect to meet whole different level of air capability and defence systems.

An yet when invading a Sept with a major pre-planned force, the Imperium will bring air support that is on another scale as well. But I agree that Tau will have some major Anti-air capability.

The lexicon says that the last time the two had an air battle, the forces where closely matched, but the tau won. Wining the air battle would be a big thing for the tau. They have very good air support powers. Fill me in on SM air support. This is just a bit of fan cannon, but jugging by tau ships using drones on their wings. I think the tau have midair reaming and repairing. Just slow down over a base and swap out your broken guns for new ones.

The IoM already did bring its forces to the Tau.

They lost.

Would they have won if they sent more? Is that going to be the eternal debate? Pretty horrible fighting force when you're excuse is "We didn't bring enough" when you outnumbered the enemy in several engagements.

BaronIveagh wrote:
*sigh* I can see why mods exist now, since the level of stupid here just hit 'Epic'.

Battlefeet Cadia (as an example) is a Sector Battlefleet in Segmentum Obscurus. It even has special rules in BFG:A. If by 'system fleet' you mean the System Defense Fleet, then you get to be extra double wrong, as SDF's are limited to non-warp capable craft and defense platforms.

I do however, find your idiocy amusing.

Wait, are you telling me that Cadian sector ( that consist of thousand of worlds ) is defended by that small fleet?
You must be wrong with SDF, Macragge was defended by several battleship when Tyranids attacked, Cadia must be to since is a strategic planet.

And just because I DIDN"T KNOW about fleet don't mean I am stupid.
I just assumed that Sector fleet ( sector as at least 100 - 1000 nearby planets ) is bigger.
Your comment just show how rude you are and with no respect at all toward others. If I am stupid, then you are an - as .


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BeefCakeSoup wrote:The IoM already did bring its forces to the Tau.

They lost.

Would they have won if they sent more? Is that going to be the eternal debate? Pretty horrible fighting force when you're excuse is "We didn't bring enough" when you outnumbered the enemy in several engagements.

Well to be realistic with you Beef - the Imperium don't know as much about Tau as we do. We know all this because we have overview about 40k and in the that same universe Imperium is not that much informed as we are. When they send that fleet it shows exactly that: They think Tau where small alien race with nothing more than a few worlds. When they realize they have mistaken - they pull out and left the Tau alone.

But, if the Imperium knew about their strength they would certainly send more. But we will never know about that. I am however interested in this Iron Hammer campaign, to see how will Imperium preform there. But on the realistic side - we will lose or the battle will be draw, We don't want to see Tau being exterminated.

Brother Coa wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Tau orbital defenses tend to be beefed up. Even then, Battlesuits are going to be turning those Space Marines into cute piles of mush with ease while they outmanuever them.

Do you have link where I can read about Tau orbital defences? I found only Tau Orbital city on Lexicanum....

As for battlesuits:

While I have rolled pretty terribly before; I have to say that I have never, ever rolled badly enough that a broadside couldn't take down a Dread in 4 turns of shooting...that would be epic failure.

That dread is tougher than the warhound that my broadside units took down in one turn before.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:The IoM already did bring its forces to the Tau.

They lost.

Would they have won if they sent more? Is that going to be the eternal debate? Pretty horrible fighting force when you're excuse is "We didn't bring enough" when you outnumbered the enemy in several engagements.

If it's the Crusade you're talking about then they didn't lose. They withdrew due to more pressing concerns. Are you saying the Tau could take on the full might of The Imperium if it brought it to bear? I find that concept laughable.

iproxtaco wrote:
If it's the Crusade you're talking about then they didn't lose. They withdrew due to more pressing concerns. Are you saying the Tau could take on the full might of The Imperium if it brought it to bear? I find that concept laughable.

Bully with bloody nose says:
"You better be glad that I have to go home now!"

We'll just quit this current war because we have something important to do way over there....

Convenient excuse is convenient.

agnosto wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
If it's the Crusade you're talking about then they didn't lose. They withdrew due to more pressing concerns. Are you saying the Tau could take on the full might of The Imperium if it brought it to bear? I find that concept laughable.

We'll just quit this current war because we have something important to do way over there....

Convenient excuse is convenient.

Well, that's exactly what happened. Something more important came up. The Tyranids.

Convenient for the Tau maybe...... .

Brother Coa wrote:
Wait, are you telling me that Cadian sector ( that consist of thousand of worlds ) is defended by that small fleet?
You must be wrong with SDF, Macragge was defended by several battleship when Tyranids attacked, Cadia must be to since is a strategic planet.

NOW he's starting to get it.

On Ultramar: the battle of Macragge was a join operation between Ultramar, which has it's own fleet independent of the Imperial Navy (another point I brought up FOR space marine lances, as Ultramar is a protectorate of the Imperium rather then being an actual part of it) and Battlefleet Bakka (really it's name!). The entire battlefleet was nearly annihilated at Battle of Circe, a moon in the Macragge systerm, their flagship, an Emperor class battleship, deliberately making a warp jump deep inside a gravity well. The ensuing explosion decimated the tyranid fleet.

And, YES. Battlefleets are THAT SMALL. In the BFG Blue Book, it's stated at a sector fleet typically numbers 50-70 warships. Granted, each of them is kilometers long, but fluff exists for a single squadron of frigates having to patrol ten to twenty worlds on it's own. Also, a sector does not have a particular number of planets, it's a volume of space 20 ly on a side, or so. As far as the sector having thousands of planets, maybe, but most of them are usually uninhabited (the Imperium has, supposedly, one million inhabited worlds). Granted, the Bastions are exceptions to a lot of rules, so this may vary.


As far as rudeness goes: I've been talking about the fleet for some time now, most people would have read up on it rather then try to argue about it from a position of ignorance. Some posters here have been ignoring the obvious to the point of me seriously questioning if they were just trolling or not. So I snapped at you for being the next person to post in a way that looked like trolling.

However, you would be surprised how many people would agree with you that I'm an donkey-cave.

Brother Coa wrote:
Well to be realistic with you Beef - the Imperium don't know as much about Tau as we do. We know all this because we have overview about 40k and in the that same universe Imperium is not that much informed as we are. When they send that fleet it shows exactly that: They think Tau where small alien race with nothing more than a few worlds. When they realize they have mistaken - they pull out and left the Tau alone.

But, if the Imperium knew about their strength they would certainly send more. But we will never know about that. I am however interested in this Iron Hammer campaign, to see how will Imperium preform there. But on the realistic side - we will lose or the battle will be draw, We don't want to see Tau being exterminated.

I think the Tau would have been underestimated off the bat even if the Imperium had known more. Cardinal Gurney, in fluff, comes across as the sort who would under estimate them no matter what, particularly his reaction that capturing and interrogating the tau leadership was unnecessary because what could they possibly learn? (Unfortunately, he was overruled by the Space Marines and Rogue Traders present)


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iproxtaco wrote:

If it's the Crusade you're talking about then they didn't lose. They withdrew due to more pressing concerns. Are you saying the Tau could take on the full might of The Imperium if it brought it to bear? I find that concept laughable.

I have to question the 'pressing concerns' version of events because they abandoned an awful lot of personnel and hardware that that the Tau scooped up afterwards.

Funny, Darius the Persian said the same thing about Greece.

Wait, you are using a couple of throwaway lines in Shadowsun's codex entry to completely overwrite all the fluff we have about Tau communications? That is a specious argument at best. Ever think "before the entire empire of fire warriors" was a metaphor, or maybe she was being recorded before the tapes got sent out on courier drones? You definitely need more than that to prove that they have real time interstellar communications.

the Tau fleet may have alot of ships for its size, but most of them arn't built to stand up to an Imperial ship of the same class.



accept that the Tau are wearing incredible amounts of Plot Armor.

GW actually shoehorned the Tau into the 40k universe just so they would have a marketable product for Anime fans and their new Japanese customers.


Kroot have been around longer then the Tau have

IvanTih wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

Of course, according to other version of the events, Tau merely pulled back after overextending their logistics and fortified their newly acquired worlds...

Nothing plays more to the Guards tune than razing fortresses....
Tau still belief the IoM isn't that big, seen in "savage scars".
Overextending the logistics of a fleet based crusading force will not work. The BT fleet is selfsustaining.
Last time BT cared for Tau, Nimbosa was cleansed.

That would be Galactic level Instakill. Per the Sabbat Crusade handbook, there was something on the order of 2 billion (yes B) IG in the campaign.

agnosto wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
If it's the Crusade you're talking about then they didn't lose. They withdrew due to more pressing concerns. Are you saying the Tau could take on the full might of The Imperium if it brought it to bear? I find that concept laughable.

Bully with bloody nose says:
"You better be glad that I have to go home now!"

We'll just quit this current war because we have something important to do way over there....

Convenient excuse is convenient.

The Guard outnumber the entire Tau race by better than a thousand to one. A single, small hiveworld outnumbers them three or four to one, and the number of Guard recruited at Armageddon (less than .1% of the population) in a single tithing almost matches the size of the entire fire caste. Under a hundred thousand Guard (so, less than a hundred millionth of the total Guard), a handful of Uselessmarines, and a few warhounds grind to a bloody stalemate against a seventh or better of the Tau's entire military, and are pulled back because their commanders feel there are more important things to commit what would be their reinforcements to.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The Guard outnumber the entire Tau race by better than a thousand to one. A single, small hiveworld outnumbers them three or four to one, and the number of Guard recruited at Armageddon (less than .1% of the population) in a single tithing almost matches the size of the entire fire caste. Under a hundred thousand Guard (so, less than a hundred millionth of the total Guard), a handful of Uselessmarines, and a few warhounds grind to a bloody stalemate against a seventh or better of the Tau's entire military, and are pulled back because their commanders feel there are more important things to commit what would be their reinforcements to.

Funny.
Yeah, I know you're kicking our butts but we're not leaving because of that, we're leaving because we have better things to do. Yeah, the mighty imperium of man parleyed for peace with an insignificant race not because they were losing but...just because. And leaving all their toys behind, not to mention a populated world....where's your exterminatus? At the very least they should have just destroyed everything as they left. Yeah, I buy that.