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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/11 18:08:38
Subject: Black Templar Crusade into the Tau Empire.
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Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander
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BaronIveagh wrote:
I have to question the 'pressing concerns' version of events because they abandoned an awful lot of personnel and hardware that that the Tau scooped up afterwards.
How about a citation?
I for one am sure youre making this up.
Cause there is a book, "savage scars" showing the event in detail.
Quoted it somewhere....
In short:
- a lord inquisitor ordered all forces he could reach to withdraw from whatever they did and gather to fight the nids at ultramar.
So either youre telling us a lord inqisitor has no right to do so, and imperial forces would just ignore him, or youre willfully blind to keep your personal view as only valid version of events
- secondly no one was abandoned and losses were minimal.
again, latest background is the most recent and should not be ignored, just to imagine abandoned troops and non-existant lost wargear.
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Target locked,ready to fire
In dedicatio imperatum ultra articulo mortis.
H.B.M.C :
We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/11 18:16:16
Subject: Re:Black Templar Crusade into the Tau Empire.
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Backfire wrote:Grey Templar wrote:either way, the Tau don't have Air Superiority.
In campaigns like Taros, to where both sides had to transport their aerial assets, air battles were fairly evenly matched. Invading a major Tau world, one can expect to meet whole different level of air capability and defence systems.
Just nuke it from orbit. Thats a problem for 40K. Its all about fleet actions. If Imperial fleets get to tau planets, they just bomb them from orbit, just as the Tau would if they made it into orbit over Imperial planets.
A serious problem for the Tau is the lack of communication. Interworld communication is made via picket ships. However Imperium ships travel warp space substantially faster than picket ships can skim it. So like the Mongols, their fleets would arrive at new planets before news that they had hit earlier planets reached the Tau. Thats a problem when your fleet can't be everywhere at once, and if the Imperial wants to avoid a fight (I know I laugh at that too) they can play an easy game of cat and mouse, bombing planets as they go, and avoiding main fleet action until a time and place of their choosing.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/11 18:26:40
Subject: Black Templar Crusade into the Tau Empire.
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Lord of the Fleet
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Bromsy wrote:Wait, you are using a couple of throwaway lines in Shadowsun's codex entry to completely overwrite all the fluff we have about Tau communications? That is a specious argument at best. Ever think "before the entire empire of fire warriors" was a metaphor, or maybe she was being recorded before the tapes got sent out on courier drones? You definitely need more than that to prove that they have real time interstellar communications.
How about IA:3 then? Tau fleet and ground forces synchronized their activities quite easily, as well as the Tau's fleet actions in and of themselves. Remember lag even just within the habitable zone of a starsystem is on the order of an hour. Without FTL communication, real time communications in the same star system are impossible, let alone over intersteller distances.
It should be noted though that this only seems to have come about following the Damocles Gulf Crusade, however, as the Tau required the aid of the Demiurg to build their new warship classes, which are designed to operate farther afield then previously. It may be that the tau have adapted yet another species technology.
BTW: "Able to make interstellar dives nearly five times farther than conventional designs, this vessel was promptly taken up by the Por caste as a means to rapidly traverse the breadth of the Empire as well as quickly and efficiently explore beyond their realm." So, um, new post Crusade Tau ships = just as fast as Imperial.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
1hadhq wrote:
How about a citation?
"The rapid redeployment left many human soldiers stranded; a situation soon exploited by the famous Commander Farsight as he followed in the wake of the retreating Human fleet, offering those left behind the stark choice of integration into the Tau empire, or a bleak future as prisoners of war. Faced with the proposition of being stranded many light years from home in a hostile and foreign region, many saw no alternative. These warriors and their offspring now maintain colonies on the frontiers of Tau space, content under their new masters yet none the less apprehensive of Imperial retribution should they face another crusade." - Chapter Approved
1hadhq wrote:
In short:
- a lord inquisitor ordered all forces he could reach to withdraw from whatever they did and gather to fight the nids at ultramar.
So either youre telling us a lord inqisitor has no right to do so, and imperial forces would just ignore him, or youre willfully blind to keep your personal view as only valid version of events
- secondly no one was abandoned and losses were minimal.
again, latest background is the most recent and should not be ignored, just to imagine abandoned troops and non-existant lost wargear.
I haven't read Savage Scars yet, just the two books leading up to it. I was surprised that Hoare suddenly shifted perspective from the Arcadius to the Space Marines.
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Frazzled wrote:
Just nuke it from orbit. Thats a problem for 40K. Its all about fleet actions. If Imperial fleets get to tau planets, they just bomb them from orbit, just as the Tau would if they made it into orbit over Imperial planets.
A serious problem for the Tau is the lack of communication. Interworld communication is made via picket ships. However Imperium ships travel warp space substantially faster than picket ships can skim it. So like the Mongols, their fleets would arrive at new planets before news that they had hit earlier planets reached the Tau. Thats a problem when your fleet can't be everywhere at once, and if the Imperial wants to avoid a fight (I know I laugh at that too) they can play an easy game of cat and mouse, bombing planets as they go, and avoiding main fleet action until a time and place of their choosing.
Frazz, again, two problems with that: the Tau fortified their planets heavily following their war with the Orks. Two, Imperial ships still have to leave warp at the system's edge and even fast Imperal ships can take days to travel in system and days more to travel out system using standard plasma drives.
Of course, 40k has one serious hole: The writers never did any math. The fastest starship used in the Imperial Navy, if you check the scale, is moving at 4k kmph (according to fluff printed two months ago). The problem is that to travel just one AU would take this ship 4 years.
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This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2011/05/11 19:09:13
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/11 19:08:38
Subject: Black Templar Crusade into the Tau Empire.
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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I hear ya BV, but thats still less time than warp skipping Tau fleets. I'm not saying its instakill by any means. I'm just saying its a strategic advantage thats missed. Now one could argue the Imperium doesn't know about this advantage, but if they are moving quickly they could, even unknowingly benefit. However, I bet they do and count it as a factor against xenos scum that don't have some method of faster communication.
I wonder if Orks have something like that, or it even matters with them...
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/11 19:13:10
Subject: Black Templar Crusade into the Tau Empire.
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Lord of the Fleet
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Frazzled wrote:I hear ya BV, but thats still less time than warp skipping Tau fleets. I'm not saying its instakill by any means. I'm just saying its a strategic advantage thats missed. Now one could argue the Imperium doesn't know about this advantage, but if they are moving quickly they could, even unknowingly benefit. However, I bet they do and count it as a factor against xenos scum that don't have some method of faster communication.
I wonder if Orks have something like that, or it even matters with them...
Well...in the 3rd sphere colonies, maybe, but 2nd sphere septs? Not really. If fluff is correct and all these systems are fairly close, the IN warp travel time is a day or so. Even if it take the Tau five days to catch up, there's a good chance the IN ships will still be stuck inside the star's gravity well when they get there. Worse, if their attack on the defenses has gone poorly, they're now between a rock and a hard place.
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Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/11 19:20:38
Subject: Black Templar Crusade into the Tau Empire.
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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BaronIveagh wrote:Frazzled wrote:I hear ya BV, but thats still less time than warp skipping Tau fleets. I'm not saying its instakill by any means. I'm just saying its a strategic advantage thats missed. Now one could argue the Imperium doesn't know about this advantage, but if they are moving quickly they could, even unknowingly benefit. However, I bet they do and count it as a factor against xenos scum that don't have some method of faster communication.
I wonder if Orks have something like that, or it even matters with them...
Well...in the 3rd sphere colonies, maybe, but 2nd sphere septs? Not really. If fluff is correct and all these systems are fairly close, the IN warp travel time is a day or so. Even if it take the Tau five days to catch up, there's a good chance the IN ships will still be stuck inside the star's gravity well when they get there. Worse, if their attack on the defenses has gone poorly, they're now between a rock and a hard place.
Fair enough.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/11 19:59:53
Subject: Black Templar Crusade into the Tau Empire.
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Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps
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BaronIveagh wrote:im2randomghgh wrote:
QFT
Unless the IF lent them the Phalanx, which alone would be able to hold a mid-sized kor'vattra on more or less even grounds.
It is a small moon, filled with guns, and 1,000 SMs.
Basically the Death Star.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The only thing I can see being a one-on-one challenge to the phalanx is a blackstone fortress, and even then terms would be even enough.
Given the Tau's proclivities for attack craft, the Phalanx would be in trouble (remember that Tau battleships are primarily carriers. Yamato, anyone?). Unlike most Fleets in 40k, they don't 'do' line of battle. And blackstones fall easy enough. Activated or not. (On pairs or trios or not, just avoid the beam)
A ship the size of the Phalanx would most definately have MANY assault craft piloted by chapter serfs, plus their thunderhawks, plus close defense turrets...
@ the blackstones, just avoid the beam...by that logic all ships are useless because you can "just avoid the bullets"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/11 20:01:06
Subject: Re:Black Templar Crusade into the Tau Empire.
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Fresh-Faced New User
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If the chapter attacks by itself it dies.
I think it would be the last time you ever saw or heard of the Black Templars.
I know, I know, the "fluff" says the mighty SM chapters are the most uber thing known to man.
And they all cast lighting bolts from there eyes, and fling fireballs from there ass.
But...6k anything does not a destroy a empire with the size and power of the Tau.
The Black Temeplars have what 200 Ships? Maybe 400 Ships? Give them thousand ships and still they could not do it.
The Tau Navy would just outgun them to much.
They just don't have the staying power to do it.
How do they control the space that they control? How do the garrison the worlds they take?
Landing and killing stuff just is not enough.
They cant just nuke them all from orbit as im guessing they want those worlds for what ever the empire needs?
Now you give the BT the full might of the Empires Navy and 500 million screaming guardsmen and there Titans.
Then you can do it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/11 20:42:39
Subject: Re:Black Templar Crusade into the Tau Empire.
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Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps
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Snogs wrote: If the chapter attacks by itself it dies.
I think it would be the last time you ever saw or heard of the Black Templars.
I know, I know, the "fluff" says the mighty SM chapters are the most uber thing known to man.
And they all cast lighting bolts from there eyes, and fling fireballs from there ass.
But...6k anything does not a destroy a empire with the size and power of the Tau.
The Black Temeplars have what 200 Ships? Maybe 400 Ships? Give them thousand ships and still they could not do it.
The Tau Navy would just outgun them to much.
They just don't have the staying power to do it.
How do they control the space that they control? How do the garrison the worlds they take?
Landing and killing stuff just is not enough.
They cant just nuke them all from orbit as im guessing they want those worlds for what ever the empire needs?
Now you give the BT the full might of the Empires Navy and 500 million screaming guardsmen and there Titans.
Then you can do it.
Preach it
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/11 20:52:35
Subject: Black Templar Crusade into the Tau Empire.
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Lord of the Fleet
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im2randomghgh wrote:
A ship the size of the Phalanx would most definately have MANY assault craft piloted by chapter serfs, plus their thunderhawks, plus close defense turrets...
@ the blackstones, just avoid the beam...by that logic all ships are useless because you can "just avoid the bullets"
Since their mega beam is fired in a straight line between them, and takes an hour to charge up with a spectacular light show between the blackstones, yes, just avoid the beam.
And, you're forgetting something: this is the Imperium, who have, on occasion, declared attack craft to be 'heresy' (Not joking, look into the fluff surrounding the 'new school' and the Gareox Prerogative). Even the very largest SM battle barges have very limited attack craft capability (much inferior even to that of a cruiser). While I'm sure Phalanx has impressive launch bays (16 grand total is the number I hear off and on) that means that it only has the launch capability of two battleships.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/05/11 20:58:36
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/11 21:19:22
Subject: Black Templar Crusade into the Tau Empire.
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Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps
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BaronIveagh wrote:im2randomghgh wrote:
A ship the size of the Phalanx would most definately have MANY assault craft piloted by chapter serfs, plus their thunderhawks, plus close defense turrets...
@ the blackstones, just avoid the beam...by that logic all ships are useless because you can "just avoid the bullets"
Since their mega beam is fired in a straight line between them, and takes an hour to charge up with a spectacular light show between the blackstones, yes, just avoid the beam.
And, you're forgetting something: this is the Imperium, who have, on occasion, declared attack craft to be 'heresy' (Not joking, look into the fluff surrounding the 'new school' and the Gareox Prerogative). Even the very largest SM battle barges have very limited attack craft capability (much inferior even to that of a cruiser). While I'm sure Phalanx has impressive launch bays (16 grand total is the number I hear off and on) that means that it only has the launch capability of two battleships.
I think you fail to appreciate the size of the Phalanx. It could launch Emperor class ships...it is a moon. a MOON. MOOOOOOON. Basically the size of a Hemisphere.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/11 21:23:24
Subject: Black Templar Crusade into the Tau Empire.
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Lord of the Fleet
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im2randomghgh wrote:
I think you fail to appreciate the size of the Phalanx. It could launch Emperor class ships...it is a moon. a MOON. MOOOOOOON. Basically the size of a Hemisphere.
Which was Retconned as of Hammer and Bolter Issue 1. It's now more like a Star Destroyer. Literally, it's a huge wedge with an aquilla on it. Which has been the story for the last several months, anyway. Who knows what it will be next?
Don't you love how GW and BL an't be bothered to write a setting bible so all the authors are on the same page?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/05/11 21:25:10
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/11 21:30:19
Subject: Black Templar Crusade into the Tau Empire.
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Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps
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More (all other sources) state that it was moon-sized. Imma goin' wit' dat! Automatically Appended Next Post: BaronIveagh wrote:
Don't you love how GW and BL an't be bothered to write a setting bible so all the authors are on the same page?
+1
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/11 21:30:56
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/11 21:42:42
Subject: Black Templar Crusade into the Tau Empire.
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Lord of the Fleet
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im2randomghgh wrote:More (all other sources) state that it was moon-sized. Imma goin' wit' dat!
Um, no.
A vast floating fortress like a starfort but larger having "towering forests of spires interlaced with flying buttresses" - Index Astartes II pg 12, and a more or less similar description in Flight of the Eisenstein.
A round object that "might have been a planetoid or minor moon" - Sons of Dorn
A ship "many kilometers long, triangular in cross-section with its upper surface bristling with weapons and sensorium domes. Two wings swept back from the Hull, trailing directional vanes like long gilded feathers. Every surface was clad in solid armour plating and every angle was covered by more torpedo tubes and lance batteries than any Imperial battleship could muster" - Phalanx, Chapter 1.
While it's much bigger then a regular battleship, I would suggest that it's not vastly so. Space Hulk sized, perhaps. From the descriptions it sounds like it has comparable weaponry to a Ramilies class star fort.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/05/11 21:45:33
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/11 21:59:43
Subject: Black Templar Crusade into the Tau Empire.
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Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps
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BaronIveagh wrote:im2randomghgh wrote:More (all other sources) state that it was moon-sized. Imma goin' wit' dat!
Um, no.
A vast floating fortress like a starfort but larger having "towering forests of spires interlaced with flying buttresses" - Index Astartes II pg 12, and a more or less similar description in Flight of the Eisenstein.
A round object that "might have been a planetoid or minor moon" - Sons of Dorn
A ship "many kilometers long, triangular in cross-section with its upper surface bristling with weapons and sensorium domes. Two wings swept back from the Hull, trailing directional vanes like long gilded feathers. Every surface was clad in solid armour plating and every angle was covered by more torpedo tubes and lance batteries than any Imperial battleship could muster" - Phalanx, Chapter 1.
While it's much bigger then a regular battleship, I would suggest that it's not vastly so. Space Hulk sized, perhaps. From the descriptions it sounds like it has comparable weaponry to a Ramilies class star fort.
I have read all of those, and you only serve to prove my point. "minor moon". "moon". Moon. Moon. Moon. Moon. Moon.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/11 22:12:23
Subject: Black Templar Crusade into the Tau Empire.
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Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander
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BaronIveagh wrote:
"The rapid redeployment left many human soldiers stranded; a situation soon exploited by the famous Commander Farsight as he followed in the wake of the retreating Human fleet, offering those left behind the stark choice of integration into the Tau empire, or a bleak future as prisoners of war. Faced with the proposition of being stranded many light years from home in a hostile and foreign region, many saw no alternative. These warriors and their offspring now maintain colonies on the frontiers of Tau space, content under their new masters yet none the less apprehensive of Imperial retribution should they face another crusade." - Chapter Approved
Chapter approved? Surely not.
Still, if it was from the time chapter approved was around, its outdated now.
And replaced. No wonder, since GW doesn't support the "gue'vesa" theme anymore and deleted their articles.
BaronIveagh wrote:
I haven't read Savage Scars yet, just the two books leading up to it. I was surprised that Hoare suddenly shifted perspective from the Arcadius to the Space Marines.
Arcadius still has a role to play.
Maybe you should read it.
Because, this book ends the DGC. I doubt GW returns to it, they may have new stories to be told ....
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Target locked,ready to fire
In dedicatio imperatum ultra articulo mortis.
H.B.M.C :
We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/11 22:36:29
Subject: Black Templar Crusade into the Tau Empire.
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Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps
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Well, no they still have gue'vesa as canon, they just have no TT representation, and little focus on them (like the demiurgs).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/11 22:37:43
Subject: Black Templar Crusade into the Tau Empire.
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Lord of the Fleet
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im2randomghgh wrote:
I have read all of those, and you only serve to prove my point. "minor moon". "moon". Moon. Moon. Moon. Moon. Moon.
Only Sons of Dorn says 'moon'. The rest are to scale but larger then Imperial battleships on par with a large space station. And several of those are printed after Sons of Dorn.
1hadhq wrote:
Chapter approved? Surely not.
Still, if it was from the time chapter approved was around, its outdated now.
And replaced. No wonder, since GW doesn't support the "gue'vesa" theme anymore and deleted their articles.
Ok, then, Imperial Armor 3, page 281. So, sorry, they're still around.
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Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/11 22:44:50
Subject: Black Templar Crusade into the Tau Empire.
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Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps
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BaronIveagh wrote:im2randomghgh wrote:
I have read all of those, and you only serve to prove my point. "minor moon". "moon". Moon. Moon. Moon. Moon. Moon.
Only Sons of Dorn says 'moon'. The rest are to scale but larger then Imperial battleships on par with a large space station. And several of those are printed after Sons of Dorn.
1hadhq wrote:
Chapter approved? Surely not.
Still, if it was from the time chapter approved was around, its outdated now.
And replaced. No wonder, since GW doesn't support the "gue'vesa" theme anymore and deleted their articles.
Ok, then, Imperial Armor 3, page 281. So, sorry, they're still around.
-1 for arguing (I am tired)
+1 for agreeing with me on the gue'vesa thing
Anyways, Flight of the Eisenstein says moon too. Moon. Moon. Moon. Moon. Moon. Moon.
Plus it is better than a ramiles class star-fort because it has 1,000 space marines (one of which is Lysander) that can torpedo-over into the enemy ship.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/11 23:56:47
Subject: Black Templar Crusade into the Tau Empire.
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Lord of the Fleet
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im2randomghgh wrote:
Anyways, Flight of the Eisenstein says moon too. Moon. Moon. Moon. Moon. Moon. Moon.
Plus it is better than a ramiles class star-fort because it has 1,000 space marines (one of which is Lysander) that can torpedo-over into the enemy ship.
Which means what? Deimos is a moon. It's also barely larger then a Emperor class battleship.
On the second point, it's hardly unique (other then the Lysander bit) in that. Check the new rules for SM fleets in FAQ 2010 for BFG for a generic fortress monastery.
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Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/12 03:25:30
Subject: Re:Black Templar Crusade into the Tau Empire.
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Mysterious Techpriest
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agnosto wrote:Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The Guard outnumber the entire Tau race by better than a thousand to one. A single, small hiveworld outnumbers them three or four to one, and the number of Guard recruited at Armageddon (less than .1% of the population) in a single tithing almost matches the size of the entire fire caste. Under a hundred thousand Guard (so, less than a hundred millionth of the total Guard), a handful of Uselessmarines, and a few warhounds grind to a bloody stalemate against a seventh or better of the Tau's entire military, and are pulled back because their commanders feel there are more important things to commit what would be their reinforcements to.
Funny.
Yeah, I know you're kicking our butts but we're not leaving because of that, we're leaving because we have better things to do. Yeah, the mighty imperium of man parleyed for peace with an insignificant race not because they were losing but...just because. And leaving all their toys behind, not to mention a populated world....where's your exterminatus? At the very least they should have just destroyed everything as they left. Yeah, I buy that.
The commanders of a force under a hundred millionth the strength of the Imperial forces are told that the people in charge of deciding where their reinforcements go no longer care about what they're doing, so it's either retreat or be left to face the full force of the Tau military, which while somewhere under a ten thousandth the overall strength of the Imperial Guard, is still ten thousand times the strength of the forces committed to the Damocles Gulf Crusade.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/12 04:28:24
Subject: Black Templar Crusade into the Tau Empire.
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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BaronIveagh wrote:Bromsy wrote:Wait, you are using a couple of throwaway lines in Shadowsun's codex entry to completely overwrite all the fluff we have about Tau communications? That is a specious argument at best. Ever think "before the entire empire of fire warriors" was a metaphor, or maybe she was being recorded before the tapes got sent out on courier drones? You definitely need more than that to prove that they have real time interstellar communications.
How about IA:3 then? Tau fleet and ground forces synchronized their activities quite easily, as well as the Tau's fleet actions in and of themselves. Remember lag even just within the habitable zone of a starsystem is on the order of an hour. Without FTL communication, real time communications in the same star system are impossible, let alone over intersteller distances.
It should be noted though that this only seems to have come about following the Damocles Gulf Crusade, however, as the Tau required the aid of the Demiurg to build their new warship classes, which are designed to operate farther afield then previously. It may be that the tau have adapted yet another species technology.
BTW: "Able to make interstellar dives nearly five times farther than conventional designs, this vessel was promptly taken up by the Por caste as a means to rapidly traverse the breadth of the Empire as well as quickly and efficiently explore beyond their realm." So, um, new post Crusade Tau ships = just as fast as Imperial.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
1hadhq wrote:
How about a citation?
"The rapid redeployment left many human soldiers stranded; a situation soon exploited by the famous Commander Farsight as he followed in the wake of the retreating Human fleet, offering those left behind the stark choice of integration into the Tau empire, or a bleak future as prisoners of war. Faced with the proposition of being stranded many light years from home in a hostile and foreign region, many saw no alternative. These warriors and their offspring now maintain colonies on the frontiers of Tau space, content under their new masters yet none the less apprehensive of Imperial retribution should they face another crusade." - Chapter Approved
1hadhq wrote:
In short:
- a lord inquisitor ordered all forces he could reach to withdraw from whatever they did and gather to fight the nids at ultramar.
So either youre telling us a lord inqisitor has no right to do so, and imperial forces would just ignore him, or youre willfully blind to keep your personal view as only valid version of events
- secondly no one was abandoned and losses were minimal.
again, latest background is the most recent and should not be ignored, just to imagine abandoned troops and non-existant lost wargear.
I haven't read Savage Scars yet, just the two books leading up to it. I was surprised that Hoare suddenly shifted perspective from the Arcadius to the Space Marines.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frazzled wrote:
Just nuke it from orbit. Thats a problem for 40K. Its all about fleet actions. If Imperial fleets get to tau planets, they just bomb them from orbit, just as the Tau would if they made it into orbit over Imperial planets.
A serious problem for the Tau is the lack of communication. Interworld communication is made via picket ships. However Imperium ships travel warp space substantially faster than picket ships can skim it. So like the Mongols, their fleets would arrive at new planets before news that they had hit earlier planets reached the Tau. Thats a problem when your fleet can't be everywhere at once, and if the Imperial wants to avoid a fight (I know I laugh at that too) they can play an easy game of cat and mouse, bombing planets as they go, and avoiding main fleet action until a time and place of their choosing.
Frazz, again, two problems with that: the Tau fortified their planets heavily following their war with the Orks. Two, Imperial ships still have to leave warp at the system's edge and even fast Imperal ships can take days to travel in system and days more to travel out system using standard plasma drives.
Of course, 40k has one serious hole: The writers never did any math. The fastest starship used in the Imperial Navy, if you check the scale, is moving at 4k kmph (according to fluff printed two months ago). The problem is that to travel just one AU would take this ship 4 years.
Tau communication 'In system' wouldn't be any faster then the IoMs.
the IoM can also hail their ships using their Astropaths. meaning instant comms that the Tau have NO way of intercepting.
and as for a Tau fleet pinning an IoM fleet between them and the planet in trouble.
well, IoM ships are alot faster in the Void then Tau fleets so the IoM would have awhile to react.
and space is 3 dimensional. why couldn't they just leave from the other side of the system unless the Tau managed to completely surround the system with ships  (thats either a 129,600 degree or a 46,656,000 degree surrounding action. even a Tau fanboi will admit thats impossable)
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/12 11:45:22
Subject: Black Templar Crusade into the Tau Empire.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Grey Templar wrote:BaronIveagh wrote:Bromsy wrote:Wait, you are using a couple of throwaway lines in Shadowsun's codex entry to completely overwrite all the fluff we have about Tau communications? That is a specious argument at best. Ever think "before the entire empire of fire warriors" was a metaphor, or maybe she was being recorded before the tapes got sent out on courier drones? You definitely need more than that to prove that they have real time interstellar communications.
How about IA:3 then? Tau fleet and ground forces synchronized their activities quite easily, as well as the Tau's fleet actions in and of themselves. Remember lag even just within the habitable zone of a starsystem is on the order of an hour. Without FTL communication, real time communications in the same star system are impossible, let alone over intersteller distances.
It should be noted though that this only seems to have come about following the Damocles Gulf Crusade, however, as the Tau required the aid of the Demiurg to build their new warship classes, which are designed to operate farther afield then previously. It may be that the tau have adapted yet another species technology.
BTW: "Able to make interstellar dives nearly five times farther than conventional designs, this vessel was promptly taken up by the Por caste as a means to rapidly traverse the breadth of the Empire as well as quickly and efficiently explore beyond their realm." So, um, new post Crusade Tau ships = just as fast as Imperial.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
1hadhq wrote:
How about a citation?
"The rapid redeployment left many human soldiers stranded; a situation soon exploited by the famous Commander Farsight as he followed in the wake of the retreating Human fleet, offering those left behind the stark choice of integration into the Tau empire, or a bleak future as prisoners of war. Faced with the proposition of being stranded many light years from home in a hostile and foreign region, many saw no alternative. These warriors and their offspring now maintain colonies on the frontiers of Tau space, content under their new masters yet none the less apprehensive of Imperial retribution should they face another crusade." - Chapter Approved
1hadhq wrote:
In short:
- a lord inquisitor ordered all forces he could reach to withdraw from whatever they did and gather to fight the nids at ultramar.
So either youre telling us a lord inqisitor has no right to do so, and imperial forces would just ignore him, or youre willfully blind to keep your personal view as only valid version of events
- secondly no one was abandoned and losses were minimal.
again, latest background is the most recent and should not be ignored, just to imagine abandoned troops and non-existant lost wargear.
I haven't read Savage Scars yet, just the two books leading up to it. I was surprised that Hoare suddenly shifted perspective from the Arcadius to the Space Marines.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frazzled wrote:
Just nuke it from orbit. Thats a problem for 40K. Its all about fleet actions. If Imperial fleets get to tau planets, they just bomb them from orbit, just as the Tau would if they made it into orbit over Imperial planets.
A serious problem for the Tau is the lack of communication. Interworld communication is made via picket ships. However Imperium ships travel warp space substantially faster than picket ships can skim it. So like the Mongols, their fleets would arrive at new planets before news that they had hit earlier planets reached the Tau. Thats a problem when your fleet can't be everywhere at once, and if the Imperial wants to avoid a fight (I know I laugh at that too) they can play an easy game of cat and mouse, bombing planets as they go, and avoiding main fleet action until a time and place of their choosing.
Frazz, again, two problems with that: the Tau fortified their planets heavily following their war with the Orks. Two, Imperial ships still have to leave warp at the system's edge and even fast Imperal ships can take days to travel in system and days more to travel out system using standard plasma drives.
Of course, 40k has one serious hole: The writers never did any math. The fastest starship used in the Imperial Navy, if you check the scale, is moving at 4k kmph (according to fluff printed two months ago). The problem is that to travel just one AU would take this ship 4 years.
Tau communication 'In system' wouldn't be any faster then the IoMs.
the IoM can also hail their ships using their Astropaths. meaning instant comms that the Tau have NO way of intercepting.
and as for a Tau fleet pinning an IoM fleet between them and the planet in trouble.
well, IoM ships are alot faster in the Void then Tau fleets so the IoM would have awhile to react.
and space is 3 dimensional. why couldn't they just leave from the other side of the system unless the Tau managed to completely surround the system with ships  (thats either a 129,600 degree or a 46,656,000 degree surrounding action. even a Tau fanboi will admit thats impossable)
Astropaths do not provide instant communication. On the contrary, their highly abstract messages not only take time to get from astropath A to astropath B they also have a good chance to get distorted / never arrive at all. Still, it's better than nothing, but in no way reliable.
Within a system laser guided communications might be the smarter solution. From where do you have the info that Imperial ships are faster in realspace than Tau ships?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/12 11:55:32
Subject: Black Templar Crusade into the Tau Empire.
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Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps
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Grey Templar wrote:
Tau communication 'In system' wouldn't be any faster then the IoMs.
the IoM can also hail their ships using their Astropaths. meaning instant comms that the Tau have NO way of intercepting.
and as for a Tau fleet pinning an IoM fleet between them and the planet in trouble.
well, IoM ships are alot faster in the Void then Tau fleets so the IoM would have awhile to react.
and space is 3 dimensional. why couldn't they just leave from the other side of the system unless the Tau managed to completely surround the system with ships  (thats either a 129,600 degree or a 46,656,000 degree surrounding action. even a Tau fanboi will admit thats impossable)
Tau comms would travel slower than by astropath, true, but the Tau Empire is 1/10,000 of the size of the IoM. And they live in an incredibly dense area, which means comms would be unbelievably fast. Automatically Appended Next Post: BaronIveagh wrote:im2randomghgh wrote:
Anyways, Flight of the Eisenstein says moon too. Moon. Moon. Moon. Moon. Moon. Moon.
Plus it is better than a ramiles class star-fort because it has 1,000 space marines (one of which is Lysander) that can torpedo-over into the enemy ship.
Which means what? Deimos is a moon. It's also barely larger then a Emperor class battleship.
On the second point, it's hardly unique (other then the Lysander bit) in that. Check the new rules for SM fleets in FAQ 2010 for BFG for a generic fortress monastery.
A battle-barge can never, ever be compared to the phalanx.
And also, Space borne SM fleets would not have the entire chapter on one ship, ever (with the possible exception of when rituals are performed), whereas the Phalanx would have them all the time. Basically making it un-boardable.
An Emperor Class Ship is about 6 to 8 km long. The Phalanx is basically as larfe as a hive.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/12 12:02:18
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/12 12:58:40
Subject: Black Templar Crusade into the Tau Empire.
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Lord of the Fleet
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Grey Templar wrote:
Tau communication 'In system' wouldn't be any faster then the IoMs.
the IoM can also hail their ships using their Astropaths. meaning instant comms that the Tau have NO way of intercepting.
and as for a Tau fleet pinning an IoM fleet between them and the planet in trouble.
well, IoM ships are alot faster in the Void then Tau fleets so the IoM would have awhile to react.
and space is 3 dimensional. why couldn't they just leave from the other side of the system unless the Tau managed to completely surround the system with ships  (thats either a 129,600 degree or a 46,656,000 degree surrounding action. even a Tau fanboi will admit thats impossable)
If IN ships are faster, why did it take 14 days to catch the A'Roh, and then only when it decided to turn and fight? While some tau ships are, the majority of them are not. (And of those they are, they tend to be carriers, whose attack craft being faster then most races ships tends to make up for it.)
Secondly, the Imperium has a terrible track record for detecting Tau ships running silent until they're almost on top them ( IA:3 in particular, however, Hoare's novels on the Gulf Crusade have one or two examples of this as well.)
In a sternchase, in real space anyway, the Tau's extensive AC launch bays give them an advantage.
What's really hilarious for me is that I've been accused of being both a Tau AND space marine fanboy now (not just in this thread), for pointing out flaws in people's arguments. Automatically Appended Next Post: im2randomghgh wrote:
A battle-barge can never, ever be compared to the phalanx.
And also, Space borne SM fleets would not have the entire chapter on one ship, ever (with the possible exception of when rituals are performed), whereas the Phalanx would have them all the time. Basically making it un-boardable.
An Emperor Class Ship is about 6 to 8 km long. The Phalanx is basically as larfe as a hive.
As of February's fluff, an Avenger-class Grand Cruiser is 8km long. A battleship is somewhat larger. A Mass Conveyer, which is a supposedly battleship sized freighter, is 16km long.
On Fortress Monasteries: "At times, an entire Space Marine Chapter may be found aboard a fortress-monastery, along with an untold number of their highly-trained serfs and retainers." - Battlefleet Gothic FAQ 2010. Only a Space Hulk may attempt to board it, and even then, the crew of the monastery get their +2 bonus for being space marines. So, yeah, don't bother trying to board.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/12 13:07:41
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/12 13:29:44
Subject: Re:Black Templar Crusade into the Tau Empire.
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Fixture of Dakka
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Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The commanders of a force under a hundred millionth the strength of the Imperial forces are told that the people in charge of deciding where their reinforcements go no longer care about what they're doing, so it's either retreat or be left to face the full force of the Tau military, which while somewhere under a ten thousandth the overall strength of the Imperial Guard, is still ten thousand times the strength of the forces committed to the Damocles Gulf Crusade.
If the number of forces were so insignificant, why were they recalled? It's like an army showing up on the other side of the world and going through the trouble of recalling 1 soldier to go help fight even though there's plenty of force available. Unless that 1 soldier is Rambo, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, does it?
Anywho, it's GW and we don't have to expect a lot of sense; they can't even keep the fluff consistant.
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Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/12 14:13:18
Subject: Black Templar Crusade into the Tau Empire.
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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KingDeath wrote:Grey Templar wrote:BaronIveagh wrote:Bromsy wrote:Wait, you are using a couple of throwaway lines in Shadowsun's codex entry to completely overwrite all the fluff we have about Tau communications? That is a specious argument at best. Ever think "before the entire empire of fire warriors" was a metaphor, or maybe she was being recorded before the tapes got sent out on courier drones? You definitely need more than that to prove that they have real time interstellar communications.
How about IA:3 then? Tau fleet and ground forces synchronized their activities quite easily, as well as the Tau's fleet actions in and of themselves. Remember lag even just within the habitable zone of a starsystem is on the order of an hour. Without FTL communication, real time communications in the same star system are impossible, let alone over intersteller distances.
It should be noted though that this only seems to have come about following the Damocles Gulf Crusade, however, as the Tau required the aid of the Demiurg to build their new warship classes, which are designed to operate farther afield then previously. It may be that the tau have adapted yet another species technology.
BTW: "Able to make interstellar dives nearly five times farther than conventional designs, this vessel was promptly taken up by the Por caste as a means to rapidly traverse the breadth of the Empire as well as quickly and efficiently explore beyond their realm." So, um, new post Crusade Tau ships = just as fast as Imperial.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
1hadhq wrote:
How about a citation?
"The rapid redeployment left many human soldiers stranded; a situation soon exploited by the famous Commander Farsight as he followed in the wake of the retreating Human fleet, offering those left behind the stark choice of integration into the Tau empire, or a bleak future as prisoners of war. Faced with the proposition of being stranded many light years from home in a hostile and foreign region, many saw no alternative. These warriors and their offspring now maintain colonies on the frontiers of Tau space, content under their new masters yet none the less apprehensive of Imperial retribution should they face another crusade." - Chapter Approved
1hadhq wrote:
In short:
- a lord inquisitor ordered all forces he could reach to withdraw from whatever they did and gather to fight the nids at ultramar.
So either youre telling us a lord inqisitor has no right to do so, and imperial forces would just ignore him, or youre willfully blind to keep your personal view as only valid version of events
- secondly no one was abandoned and losses were minimal.
again, latest background is the most recent and should not be ignored, just to imagine abandoned troops and non-existant lost wargear.
I haven't read Savage Scars yet, just the two books leading up to it. I was surprised that Hoare suddenly shifted perspective from the Arcadius to the Space Marines.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frazzled wrote:
Just nuke it from orbit. Thats a problem for 40K. Its all about fleet actions. If Imperial fleets get to tau planets, they just bomb them from orbit, just as the Tau would if they made it into orbit over Imperial planets.
A serious problem for the Tau is the lack of communication. Interworld communication is made via picket ships. However Imperium ships travel warp space substantially faster than picket ships can skim it. So like the Mongols, their fleets would arrive at new planets before news that they had hit earlier planets reached the Tau. Thats a problem when your fleet can't be everywhere at once, and if the Imperial wants to avoid a fight (I know I laugh at that too) they can play an easy game of cat and mouse, bombing planets as they go, and avoiding main fleet action until a time and place of their choosing.
Frazz, again, two problems with that: the Tau fortified their planets heavily following their war with the Orks. Two, Imperial ships still have to leave warp at the system's edge and even fast Imperal ships can take days to travel in system and days more to travel out system using standard plasma drives.
Of course, 40k has one serious hole: The writers never did any math. The fastest starship used in the Imperial Navy, if you check the scale, is moving at 4k kmph (according to fluff printed two months ago). The problem is that to travel just one AU would take this ship 4 years.
Tau communication 'In system' wouldn't be any faster then the IoMs.
the IoM can also hail their ships using their Astropaths. meaning instant comms that the Tau have NO way of intercepting.
and as for a Tau fleet pinning an IoM fleet between them and the planet in trouble.
well, IoM ships are alot faster in the Void then Tau fleets so the IoM would have awhile to react.
and space is 3 dimensional. why couldn't they just leave from the other side of the system unless the Tau managed to completely surround the system with ships  (thats either a 129,600 degree or a 46,656,000 degree surrounding action. even a Tau fanboi will admit thats impossable)
Astropaths do not provide instant communication. On the contrary, their highly abstract messages not only take time to get from astropath A to astropath B they also have a good chance to get distorted / never arrive at all. Still, it's better than nothing, but in no way reliable.
Within a system laser guided communications might be the smarter solution. From where do you have the info that Imperial ships are faster in realspace than Tau ships?
what you say is true of Astropathic messages over the span of the galaxy, but within the small confines of a star system Astropathic comms will indeed be faster then laser projected comms.
and Tau ships are slower then IoM ships.
the slowest Imperial ships(Heavy Battlecruisers) move at the same speed as the average Tau ship. movement 15cm
the most powerful Tau ship only matches the speed of Imperial Cruisers and Grand Cruisers. movement 20cm
the Fastest Tau ship isn't worth 2 figs in a fire fight so it isn't worth anything. movement 25cm
all Tau ships are slower then Space Marine ships aside from a Battlebarges movement 20cm.
even Demurg ships only move at 20cm, but they at least are capable of fighting IoM ships on even footing(and have the price tag to match)
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/12 14:15:17
Subject: Re:Black Templar Crusade into the Tau Empire.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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agnosto wrote:Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The commanders of a force under a hundred millionth the strength of the Imperial forces are told that the people in charge of deciding where their reinforcements go no longer care about what they're doing, so it's either retreat or be left to face the full force of the Tau military, which while somewhere under a ten thousandth the overall strength of the Imperial Guard, is still ten thousand times the strength of the forces committed to the Damocles Gulf Crusade.
If the number of forces were so insignificant, why were they recalled? It's like an army showing up on the other side of the world and going through the trouble of recalling 1 soldier to go help fight even though there's plenty of force available. Unless that 1 soldier is Rambo, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, does it?
Anywho, it's GW and we don't have to expect a lot of sense; they can't even keep the fluff consistant. 
I would disagree that the forces were insignificant, I'm with you on that, else why were they so sorely needed? I think people believe that because the Imperium has to many soldiers that they have unlimited power. They forget the size of The Imperium, the massive number of other conflicts. If they wanted to, the Imperium could easily muster the forces to destroy the Tau, but they have more pressing concerns and those forces are needed elsewhere. It's like a Lion fighting off a pack of Wolves. It has a Wasp on its back that it could easily kill, but the wolves are more dangerous.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/12 14:18:37
Subject: Re:Black Templar Crusade into the Tau Empire.
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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iproxtaco wrote:agnosto wrote:Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The commanders of a force under a hundred millionth the strength of the Imperial forces are told that the people in charge of deciding where their reinforcements go no longer care about what they're doing, so it's either retreat or be left to face the full force of the Tau military, which while somewhere under a ten thousandth the overall strength of the Imperial Guard, is still ten thousand times the strength of the forces committed to the Damocles Gulf Crusade.
If the number of forces were so insignificant, why were they recalled? It's like an army showing up on the other side of the world and going through the trouble of recalling 1 soldier to go help fight even though there's plenty of force available. Unless that 1 soldier is Rambo, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, does it?
Anywho, it's GW and we don't have to expect a lot of sense; they can't even keep the fluff consistant. 
I would disagree that the forces were insignificant, I'm with you on that, else why were they so sorely needed? I think people believe that because the Imperium has to many soldiers that they have unlimited power. They forget the size of The Imperium, the massive number of other conflicts. If they wanted to, the Imperium could easily muster the forces to destroy the Tau, but they have more pressing concerns and those forces are needed elsewhere. It's like a Lion fighting off a pack of Wolves. It has a Wasp on its back that it could easily kill, but the wolves are more dangerous.
the Force was insignificant for taking on the Tau empire.
they were pulled back because every avaliable body was needed to face off the Nids.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/12 14:30:14
Subject: Black Templar Crusade into the Tau Empire.
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Lord of the Fleet
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Grey Templar wrote:
what you say is true of Astropathic messages over the span of the galaxy, but within the small confines of a star system Astropathic comms will indeed be faster then laser projected comms.
and Tau ships are slower then IoM ships.
the slowest Imperial ships(Heavy Battlecruisers) move at the same speed as the average Tau ship. movement 15cm
the most powerful Tau ship only matches the speed of Imperial Cruisers and Grand Cruisers. movement 20cm
the Fastest Tau ship isn't worth 2 figs in a fire fight so it isn't worth anything. movement 25cm
all Tau ships are slower then Space Marine ships aside from a Battlebarges movement 20cm.
You may wish to consult the new FAQ.
https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bw_dULEfC3rbYzUyNjQzZTAtMDZiMS00ZjRlLWJjNzMtYTE5YmNjZjdjODQ1&sort=name&layout=list&num=50
You might find things have changed.
All the ships from IA:3 have found their way into 'official' tournament play.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/12 14:37:32
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
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