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im2randomghgh wrote:
A battle-barge can never, ever be compared to the phalanx.

Eternal Crusader could possibly. Agree otherwise.


Oh, and I just read an interesting tidbit in the Deathwatch rulebook, page 310, about the Imperial Kill Ships. Turns out they just sneak past people's defences, fire nasty stuff at a planet and then slingshot away to safety using the planet's own gravitational field. Nasty stuff!

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Oh, and I just read an interesting tidbit in the Deathwatch rulebook, page 310, about the Imperial Kill Ships. Turns out they just sneak past people's defences, fire nasty stuff at a planet and then slingshot away to safety using the planet's own gravitational field. Nasty stuff!

Yeah, there's all sorts of ships that we don't have any actual information for from every faction.

Personally, though, I prefer the big rock approach to exterminatus. I know there' that silly post about Rocks not Being Free, but the adept writing it does not factor in the difference in long term cost, mainly that the planet will be productive again within the century, as opposed to say, reducing it permanently, or 10k years of radioactivity.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

what you say is true of Astropathic messages over the span of the galaxy, but within the small confines of a star system Astropathic comms will indeed be faster then laser projected comms.


and Tau ships are slower then IoM ships.

the slowest Imperial ships(Heavy Battlecruisers) move at the same speed as the average Tau ship. movement 15cm

the most powerful Tau ship only matches the speed of Imperial Cruisers and Grand Cruisers. movement 20cm

the Fastest Tau ship isn't worth 2 figs in a fire fight so it isn't worth anything. movement 25cm


all Tau ships are slower then Space Marine ships aside from a Battlebarges movement 20cm.

You may wish to consult the new FAQ.
https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bw_dULEfC3rbYzUyNjQzZTAtMDZiMS00ZjRlLWJjNzMtYTE5YmNjZjdjODQ1&sort=name&layout=list&num=50

You might find things have changed.

All the ships from IA:3 have found their way into 'official' tournament play.

hmmmm,

thats a little better.


although those ships seem to have pitiful strengths on all their weapons batteries and lances.

no ship has more then 1 Ion cannon and Railgun batteries are pretty low compared to Imperial equivilants.

they seem to be relying heavily on Strike craft which is a shaky strategy at best.


if an imperial ship manages to close those Tau ships are going down fast as they simply can't withstand the firepower the Imperium can put out.

Imperial Launch bays could simply focus on keeping the Tau Bombers and Assault boats away with Fighters while attempting to close and kick face.

Grey Templar wrote:

hmmmm,

thats a little better.


although those ships seem to have pitiful strengths on all their weapons batteries and lances.

no ship has more then 1 Ion cannon and Railgun batteries are pretty low compared to Imperial equivilants.

they seem to be relying heavily on Strike craft which is a shaky strategy at best.


if an imperial ship manages to close those Tau ships are going down fast as they simply can't withstand the firepower the Imperium can put out.

Imperial Launch bays could simply focus on keeping the Tau Bombers and Assault boats away with Fighters while attempting to close and kick face.

The problem with that is that Manta's enjoy the same saving throws as thunderhawks, meaning on a 4+ they are not removed. Tau do not use assualt boats, IIRC.

And, again, the tracking rule lets Tau dodge the column shift for fireing over 30cm. So their WBs are much more powerful at range then their imperial equivalents. Further, their torpedoes count as guided AND can change speed. Meaning while IN torps fly off into deep space, Tau torps turn around and hit you. Instead of a area denial weapon, which is what In torps are good for, except at very close ranges, for the Tau they're an actual damage weapon.

Also: The Protector. Just.... the Protector. I'd suggest staying out of it's frontal arc, but it has 90 degree turns meaning it will dance around a comparable IN ship with ease. And throw the kitchen sink at them.

Well, it won't be dancing around my SM fleet.

EVERYONE has 90 degree turns (except the Battlebarge which has 45 degrees)

Grey Templar wrote:Well, it won't be dancing around my SM fleet.

EVERYONE has 90 degree turns (except the Battlebarge which has 45 degrees)

So which of the new options will your strike cruisers be taking? I recommend the extra point of shield, myself.

BaronIveagh wrote:

As of February's fluff, an Avenger-class Grand Cruiser is 8km long. A battleship is somewhat larger. A Mass Conveyer, which is a supposedly battleship sized freighter, is 16km long.

The Phalanx was described as a floating city in Mechanicum.

To give a frame of referrence, I live in T.O. so I will use it as an example.

46km is the width of it's water front.

43km is the it's east-west width.

And it was compared to a hive city, which we can assume is many times larger.

Grey Templar wrote:
what you say is true of Astropathic messages over the span of the galaxy, but within the small confines of a star system Astropathic comms will indeed be faster then laser projected comms.

Who's there to say that Tau don't have Astropath equivalents? They aren't psychic themselves, but many of their allied races are - most notably, Nicassar.

im2randomghgh wrote:
The Phalanx was described as a floating city in Mechanicum.

To give a frame of referrence, I live in T.O. so I will use it as an example.

46km is the width of it's water front.

43km is the it's east-west width.

And it was compared to a hive city, which we can assume is many times larger.

LOL The Universe class mass conveyer is described as having whole cities glittering on it's flanks. It's 16km long.

Never minding that many hive cities are taller and deeper then they are wide, and they run in the 12km tall range...

At 43km, do you understand what flying something like that close enough to a planet to do anything would do to both the ship and the planet?

Backfire wrote:

Who's there to say that Tau don't have Astropath equivalents? They aren't psychic themselves, but many of their allied races are - most notably, Nicassar.

My theory is they use quantum entanglement. All the fun of FTL coms, without the possibility of being overheard.

BaronIveagh wrote:

At 43km, do you understand what flying something like that close enough to a planet to do anything would do to both the ship and the planet?

The Phalanx is so advanced it was described as landed flawlessly, gracefully, on Mars in Mechanicum.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Well, it won't be dancing around my SM fleet.

EVERYONE has 90 degree turns (except the Battlebarge which has 45 degrees)

So which of the new options will your strike cruisers be taking? I recommend the extra point of shield, myself.

definitly the shield.


I'll definitly be getting myself one of those Venerable Battle Barges too.

now, which totally awsome ship do i want?

im2randomghgh wrote:
The Phalanx is so advanced it was described as landed flawlessly, gracefully, on Mars in Mechanicum.

Then it's not 43 km anything. At that size, it would have had the same effect on Mars as if it had suddenly gained another moon.

Gravity generators FTW baby

Grey Templar wrote:
definitly the shield.


I'll definitly be getting myself one of those Venerable Battle Barges too.

now, which totally awsome ship do i want?

A lot of people have been going with the Desolator class battleship. It's long range and faster speed coupled with it's extensive lances plug holes in SM fleets nicely. The only downside it has is weaker armor compared to other SM ships.

Grey Templar wrote:Gravity generators FTW baby

Actually Gravity Plating.

Grey Templar wrote:Gravity generators FTW baby

40k Imperial grav tech doesn't work that way, unless the entire exterior of the ship was coated in grav plating.

Since grav plating is one direction only.



When it was brought up in the course of discussion for FAQ2010 the statline for Phalanx was compared to a Fortress Monastery or the Raptorus Rex in IA:10

If i ever do a Sm fleet, I'll probably take the Nicor as my VBB. Something about 25cm, 10 hp +6 armor and 5 (!) shields. and decent firepower.

I always was under the impression that the ship was able to project a sheath of null gravity to allow the ship to come to rest gently in close proximity to a planet.

BaronIveagh wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
The Phalanx is so advanced it was described as landed flawlessly, gracefully, on Mars in Mechanicum.

Then it's not 43 km anything. At that size, it would have had the same effect on Mars as if it had suddenly gained another moon.

The point is that it had such advanced (and forgotten) technology that it was able to keep the Martian atmosphere stable while it landed.

Read the beginning of Mechanicus.

If the IoM learned how to mass-produce Phalanxes, it would win it's space battles A LOT more often.

Sorta like how it would always win titan fights if they had recovered the Castigator...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:I always was under the impression that the ship was able to project a sheath of null gravity to allow the ship to come to rest gently in close proximity to a planet.

Very Tau-ish tech

Grey Templar wrote:I always was under the impression that the ship was able to project a sheath of null gravity to allow the ship to come to rest gently in close proximity to a planet.

Nope. Imperial ships supposedly can't land at all. Other then the hard way.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:I always was under the impression that the ship was able to project a sheath of null gravity to allow the ship to come to rest gently in close proximity to a planet.

Nope. Imperial ships supposedly can't land at all. Other then the hard way.

...Except the Phalanx. It was not created by Imperials. Rogal Dorn was just found with it.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Read the beginning of Mechanicus.

I did. If we're thinking the same ship, that's not the Phalanx, since this is where Mars meets the Emperor, before he even creates the Primarchs. Since Rogal Dorn finds the Phalanx, and he's not born yet...

IIRC it was generally held that the Empy is holding up an (amusingly) Emperor class battleship to show off his psychic might.

BaronIveagh wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Read the beginning of Mechanicus.

I did. If we're thinking the same ship, that's not the Phalanx, since this is where Mars meets the Emperor, before he even creates the Primarchs. Since Rogal Dorn finds the Phalanx, and he's not born yet...

IIRC it was generally held that the Empy is holding up an (amusingly) Emperor class battleship to show off his psychic might.

This is not the Emperor's first meeting with the mechanicus-he is not creating the treaty of mars.

He is creating the rules to which the mechanicus now adhere.

And yes, I am fairly sure it was the Phalanx, considering it fit the description and it is well known the the Imperial Fists were the Emperor's bodyguard before the custodes. It is completely plausible, and what's more, it is probable.

Backfire wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:either way, the Tau don't have Air Superiority.

In campaigns like Taros, to where both sides had to transport their aerial assets, air battles were fairly evenly matched. Invading a major Tau world, one can expect to meet whole different level of air capability and defence systems.

Actually, they weren't.

Once the Imperial Navy was on the ground, there was a timelapse between the time they deployed and the time they were transported down. The Navy had to build their own airbases, etc since they were in Tau hands.

That's also not mentioning that R'myr hit the airfields while they were being built, giving his forces control of the sky for quite awhile.

im2randomghgh wrote:
This is not the Emperor's first meeting with the mechanicus-he is not creating the treaty of mars.

He is creating the rules to which the mechanicus now adhere.

And yes, I am fairly sure it was the Phalanx, considering it fit the description and it is well known the the Imperial Fists were the Emperor's bodyguard before the custodes. It is completely plausible, and what's more, it is probable.

Um.... the Custodes were the original genetically enhanced warriors that the Emperor created during the Unifcation Wars on Terra, before he ever created a single Space Marine. How would the Fists have guarded him before they existed?


Besides: the first words out of the Mechanicus knight meeting him are 'Who are you?' Has reply" I am the Emperor.' This would imply that the Admech had no frackking idea who this guy was and this was a first meeting.

BaronIveagh wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
This is not the Emperor's first meeting with the mechanicus-he is not creating the treaty of mars.

He is creating the rules to which the mechanicus now adhere.

And yes, I am fairly sure it was the Phalanx, considering it fit the description and it is well known the the Imperial Fists were the Emperor's bodyguard before the custodes. It is completely plausible, and what's more, it is probable.

Um.... the Custodes were the original genetically enhanced warriors that the Emperor created during the Unifcation Wars on Terra, before he ever created a single Space Marine. How would the Fists have guarded him before they existed?


Besides: the first words out of the Mechanicus knight meeting him are 'Who are you?' Has reply" I am the Emperor.' This would imply that the Admech had no frackking idea who this guy was and this was a first meeting.

A knight pilot asks who he is, therefore he has never spoken to any AdMech ever? Odd reasoning...

Wiki Quote: Part of the Imperial Fists' duties during the Great Crusade were to function as the Emperor's "personal praetorians", accompanying him everywhere. The Imperial Fists were usually used to strike a decisive blow against the enemies he confronted during that time. The role of the Emperor's bodyguard since he was mortally wounded during the Horus Heresy and interred within the Golden Throne at the heart of the Imperial Palace on Terra has been entirely taken over by the Adeptus Custodes.

Taken Over by the custodes. The Fists were his preferred legions, his praetorians.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:

Backfire wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:either way, the Tau don't have Air Superiority.

In campaigns like Taros, to where both sides had to transport their aerial assets, air battles were fairly evenly matched. Invading a major Tau world, one can expect to meet whole different level of air capability and defence systems.

Actually, they weren't.

Once the Imperial Navy was on the ground, there was a timelapse between the time they deployed and the time they were transported down. The Navy had to build their own airbases, etc since they were in Tau hands.

That's also not mentioning that R'myr hit the airfields while they were being built, giving his forces control of the sky for quite awhile.

For in-atmosphere air-combat, the Manta wins. It is a flying fortress that is a titan equivalent. Basically a flying warlord.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Rogal Dorn gifted it to the Emperor, so the fists weren't necessarily present on Mars.

Also, you called it a wedge, but it is spherical.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Phalanx

It says that it is as large/complex as a Craftworld

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Backfire wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:either way, the Tau don't have Air Superiority.

In campaigns like Taros, to where both sides had to transport their aerial assets, air battles were fairly evenly matched. Invading a major Tau world, one can expect to meet whole different level of air capability and defence systems.

Actually, they weren't.

Once the Imperial Navy was on the ground, there was a timelapse between the time they deployed and the time they were transported down. The Navy had to build their own airbases, etc since they were in Tau hands.

That's also not mentioning that R'myr hit the airfields while they were being built, giving his forces control of the sky for quite awhile.

For in-atmosphere air-combat, the Manta wins. It is a flying fortress that is a titan equivalent. Basically a flying warlord.

"For atmosphere air-combat" the Manta doesn't win anything. It's used as a ground attack aircraft, not a dogfighter. It can defend itself against Interceptors, but there's a reason the Tau pulled an entire air wing to cover the Mantas they deployed.

What did they deploy the Mantas against again? Oh. Right...Warhounds.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Also, Rogal Dorn gifted it to the Emperor, so the fists weren't necessarily present on Mars.

Also, you called it a wedge, but it is spherical.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Phalanx

It says that it is as large/complex as a Craftworld

If you're using Wikia as a source, you need to lay off the sauce. They're even worse then Lexicanum. At least Lexicanum stays within fluff. Wikia doesn't even do that. Go read the actual books.

"The custodes were the product of an older, formative process, a process, some said, that had been refined and simplified to produce the Astartes en masse. Generally, custodes were larger and more powerful than Astartes, but the differences were only noticeably significant in a few specific cases. No one would be foolish enough to predict the outcome of a contest between an Astartes and a custodes." -Blood Games

"‘The primarch came up to Amon face to face. They were the tallest beings in the room." - Blood Games (A quick comparison between Rogal Dorn and an Adeptus Custodes)

The Custodes also appear in the Last Church, where the Emperor talks about how he's working on creating the Astartes.



The Manta is actually quit resilient on it's own, as a space bomber.

BaronIveagh wrote:The Manta is actually quite resilient on its own, as a space bomber.

It's resilient against most forms of surface-to-air defenses, but just like a Thunderhawk (which is the closest modern Imperial equivalent to the Manta. The Stormbird which was around during the Horus Heresy transported the same amount as the Manta is a better match, but was phased out of service during the closing days of the Great Crusade) Mantas can be brought down if they're not properly protected or exposed for too long in a combat zone.

Kanluwen wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:The Manta is actually quite resilient on its own, as a space bomber.

It's resilient against most forms of surface-to-air defenses, but just like a Thunderhawk (which is the closest modern Imperial equivalent to the Manta. The Stormbird which was around during the Horus Heresy transported the same amount as the Manta is a better match, but was phased out of service during the closing days of the Great Crusade) Mantas can be brought down if they're not properly protected or exposed for too long in a combat zone.

Didn't say they were invincible, just said they were resilient. As in they have the 'Resilient' special rule? Hello? PUN?

They may be resiliant, but they are slow and ponderous for a Space Craft.


Thunderbolts and Thunderhawks(with the Turbo-laser) will run circles around them.



It seems odd that the Tau, which in the Table top game have fast transports, are fairly slow in space.