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Grey Templar wrote:
Thunderbolts and Thunderhawks(with the Turbo-laser) will run circles around them.

That's fine. They have guns in just about every direction, if you haven't noticed.

Considering that in a little bit more than 200 years they went from no space ships to the ones in BFG:A, and a bit longer to the ones at Taros that could rival Imperial technology, I suspect by the time the Imperium gets around to it, they're going to find the little blue buggers are flying things to rival necrons.






IIRC: wasn't there a Tigershark variant that also was used as a Titan Killer?

BaronIveagh wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
Thunderbolts and Thunderhawks(with the Turbo-laser) will run circles around them.

That's fine. They have guns in just about every direction, if you haven't noticed.

Considering that in a little bit more than 200 years they went from no space ships to the ones in BFG:A, and a bit longer to the ones at Taros that could rival Imperial technology, I suspect by the time the Imperium gets around to it, they're going to find the little blue buggers are flying things to rival necrons.

Annnnnd?

The Thunderhawk is, as it stands, a step down in size from its predecessor, the Stormbird. The Stormbird was the size of a Manta and carried an entire Company's worth of Astartes(This was mentioned first in "False Gods" and now most recently in "The First Heretic") --and had enough room for fully stocked armouries to be housed within.

Bigger is not always better. The Tau are just starting to realize this in regards to the Manta.

IIRC: wasn't there a Tigershark variant that also was used as a Titan Killer?

Yep, and it was only deployed twice.

Once again--against Warhound Titans.
The Tigershark AX 1-0 mounts the same Rail Guns as the Manta. Theoretically this was because the Tau realized that having to pull entire air wings to cover one craft that is a ponderous target is a bad thing.

Kanluwen wrote:
Annnnnd?

The Thunderhawk is, as it stands, a step down in size from its predecessor, the Stormbird. The Stormbird was the size of a Manta and carried an entire Company's worth of Astartes(This was mentioned first in "False Gods" and now most recently in "The First Heretic") --and had enough room for fully stocked armouries to be housed within.

They're also mentioned in Horus Rising and Legion of One. However, they also seemed to have serious problems, having originally been designed as atmospheric transports during the unification wars on Terra. The craft had a folding wing system, which reduces the amount of stress it could take in a turn, making it unwieldy AND lightly armored. They were being phased out at the end of the Crusade by thunderhawks for these reasons.

Kanluwen wrote:

Bigger is not always better. The Tau are just starting to realize this in regards to the Manta.

It's designed to be an anti-starship strike craft (which it excels at) not to slug it out with titans. The landing craft variant is designed for quick in and out missions where there is a hot LZ, as orcas are somewhat fragile.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Wiki Quote: Part of the Imperial Fists' duties during the Great Crusade were to function as the Emperor's "personal praetorians", accompanying him everywhere. The Imperial Fists were usually used to strike a decisive blow against the enemies he confronted during that time. The role of the Emperor's bodyguard since he was mortally wounded during the Horus Heresy and interred within the Golden Throne at the heart of the Imperial Palace on Terra has been entirely taken over by the Adeptus Custodes.

Taken Over by the custodes. The Fists were his preferred legions, his praetorians.

Lexicanum, with actual references to what they base the information on, as opposed to the "superior" Wikia wrote:The Adeptus Custodes were known originally as the Legio Custodes. The original Custodians were the first genetically and psychologically altered warriors created by the Emperor during the Terran Unification Wars. They served as the Emperor's personal bodyguard. The genetic enhancement that forms the Custodes is different from and predates that developed to create Space Marines

BaronIveagh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Annnnnd?

The Thunderhawk is, as it stands, a step down in size from its predecessor, the Stormbird. The Stormbird was the size of a Manta and carried an entire Company's worth of Astartes(This was mentioned first in "False Gods" and now most recently in "The First Heretic") --and had enough room for fully stocked armouries to be housed within.

They're also mentioned in Horus Rising and Legion of One. However, they also seemed to have serious problems, having originally been designed as atmospheric transports during the unification wars on Terra. The craft had a folding wing system, which reduces the amount of stress it could take in a turn, making it unwieldy AND lightly armored. They were being phased out at the end of the Crusade by thunderhawks for these reasons.

Kanluwen wrote:

Bigger is not always better. The Tau are just starting to realize this in regards to the Manta.

It's designed to be an anti-starship strike craft (which it excels at) not to slug it out with titans. The landing craft variant is designed for quick in and out missions where there is a hot LZ, as orcas are somewhat fragile.

Actually, Stormbirds were mostly phased out because the designs were lost.

the Thunderhawk STC was found to be a suitible replacement for the Legion's slowely dwindiling supply of Stormbirds.


and of course, after the Legions were broken up, Space marines no longer needed a craft capable of dropping an entire company in one go. 3 Thunderhawks are much faster and can do the same work.

Grey Templar wrote:
Actually, Stormbirds were mostly phased out because the designs were lost.

the Thunderhawk STC was found to be a suitible replacement for the Legion's slowely dwindiling supply of Stormbirds.


and of course, after the Legions were broken up, Space marines no longer needed a craft capable of dropping an entire company in one go. 3 Thunderhawks are much faster and can do the same work.

Um... maybe I missed something, but they were being manufactured on Terra by the Yndonesic Bloc, and were being phased out before the Heresy, so how would the designs have been lost?

I have never heard about them stopping production because they weren't adaqate for the Legions.


also the fact they were still being used extensivly during and after the Heresy supports that they weren't being deliberatly phased out.

Grey Templar wrote:I have never heard about them stopping production because they weren't adaqate for the Legions.


also the fact they were still being used extensively during and after the Heresy supports that they weren't being deliberately phased out.

Because several of the legions are using them for drops already at the beginning of the Heresy. Both Mechanicum and Flight of the Eisenstein mention that certain marks of equipment are being phased out (including the Eisenstein itself in favor of the 'new' Sword class [meaning the Eisenstein is most likely a Havok class frigate, though this is never stated]). Since some legions are still using the Stormbird, and some are using the Thunderhawk, and the Stormbird is noted as the older pattern, either their gear is different due to legion preference or they're being phased out. Since two of the novels mention that some equipment is being phased out for various reasons, and a obvious flaw is present in the Stormbird...

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Backfire wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:either way, the Tau don't have Air Superiority.

In campaigns like Taros, to where both sides had to transport their aerial assets, air battles were fairly evenly matched. Invading a major Tau world, one can expect to meet whole different level of air capability and defence systems.

Actually, they weren't.

Once the Imperial Navy was on the ground, there was a timelapse between the time they deployed and the time they were transported down. The Navy had to build their own airbases, etc since they were in Tau hands.

That's also not mentioning that R'myr hit the airfields while they were being built, giving his forces control of the sky for quite awhile.

For in-atmosphere air-combat, the Manta wins. It is a flying fortress that is a titan equivalent. Basically a flying warlord.

"For atmosphere air-combat" the Manta doesn't win anything. It's used as a ground attack aircraft, not a dogfighter. It can defend itself against Interceptors, but there's a reason the Tau pulled an entire air wing to cover the Mantas they deployed.

What did they deploy the Mantas against again? Oh. Right...Warhounds.

...It has 16 chainguns...anything coming near would be annihilated.

It has A LOT more firepower/structure points than a warhound. It costs more than a reaver (points AND money)

The reason they provide support is that they are such a valuable asset. It is comparable to how titans are accompanied by skitarii.

And also, Mantas are NOT comparable to Thunderhawks. They are 6x larger. 6. x. larger.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Backfire wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:either way, the Tau don't have Air Superiority.

In campaigns like Taros, to where both sides had to transport their aerial assets, air battles were fairly evenly matched. Invading a major Tau world, one can expect to meet whole different level of air capability and defence systems.

Actually, they weren't.

Once the Imperial Navy was on the ground, there was a timelapse between the time they deployed and the time they were transported down. The Navy had to build their own airbases, etc since they were in Tau hands.

That's also not mentioning that R'myr hit the airfields while they were being built, giving his forces control of the sky for quite awhile.

For in-atmosphere air-combat, the Manta wins. It is a flying fortress that is a titan equivalent. Basically a flying warlord.

"For atmosphere air-combat" the Manta doesn't win anything. It's used as a ground attack aircraft, not a dogfighter. It can defend itself against Interceptors, but there's a reason the Tau pulled an entire air wing to cover the Mantas they deployed.

What did they deploy the Mantas against again? Oh. Right...Warhounds.

...It has 16 chainguns...anything coming near would be annihilated.

It has 16 "Drone-Controlled Long Barrelled Burst Cannons".

It has A LOT more firepower/structure points than a warhound.

I would hope so, since it's supposed to be the Tau's support craft for assaulting enemy vessels.

It costs more than a Reaver (points AND money)

And? A Stormtrooper costs more than a Veteran Guardsman--it doesn't mean they're a better choice.

The reason they are provided support is that they are such a valuable asset. It is comparable to how titans are accompanied by skitarii.

The "reason they are provided support" is because they're gigantic wallowing targets that could be brought down by concentrated fire if not suppressed.

And also, Mantas are NOT comparable to Thunderhawks. They are 6x larger. 6. x. larger.

Again: so what?

Size does not make something automatically superior.
The Mantas, while being heavily armed (relatively. The armament they have is a bit of an eclectic mix, and all geared towards dealing with capital ships or large targets that can't move fast like Imperial and Ork Titans) and armoured, are really not equipped to defend themselves against things like the Thunderbolt or Lightning if they were to be launched in the size of a squadron or larger. Heck, a Thunderhawk could take down a Manta in a one-v-one situation due to the speed advantage a Thunderhawk has over the Manta.

Those long-barreled burst cannons are notably short ranged for an aerospace craft.

The ion cannons and missile pods are the craft's only real hope against other aircraft.

yeah, its main armament of Heavy Railguns is only useful against slow targets its can draw a bead on. like Titans and Space vessels.

and its "Hope against other Aircraft" are manned by BS2 drones

the Manta is also primarly a surface shuttle to transport large quantities of troops down to the surface of a planet. once there it can provide some support as a gunship.

Grey Templar wrote:yeah, its main armament of Heavy Railguns is only useful against slow targets its can draw a bead on. like Titans and Space vessels.

and its "Hope against other Aircraft" are manned by BS2 drones

the Manta is also primarly a surface shuttle to transport large quantities of troops down to the surface of a planet. once there it can provide some support as a gunship.

A ship on a course for a titan that then tears it apart isn't something to scoff at.

A manta is about as deadly as it gets besides an Emperor class titan on the battlefield. The fact it can carry a bunch of suits and troops is equally brutal.

Also, the fact that it is no longer the main hunter for titans is a notable piece to keep in mind. It means that if the Tau run into an Emperor Class Titan they will build a counter for the following battle. The Tau aren't some pushover scrubs, they fight and learn with each battle. The handful they have been in have taught them lessons they take to heart, unlike their enemies that constantly underestimate them only to be punished for it later. A victory today could spell one or more defeats down the road, which is the threat the Tau pose.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:The Tau aren't some pushover scrubs

Actually... yeah... they kinda are. The only reason they yet live is plot armor...

Melissia wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:The Tau aren't some pushover scrubs

Actually... yeah... they kinda are. The only reason they yet live is plot armor...

Everyone gets their fair share of plot armor.

So yeah, you could call them scrubs, but what does that make the Imperium for losing conflicts against them?

BaronIveagh wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
Thunderbolts and Thunderhawks(with the Turbo-laser) will run circles around them.

That's fine. They have guns in just about every direction, if you haven't noticed.

Considering that in a little bit more than 200 years they went from no space ships to the ones in BFG:A, and a bit longer to the ones at Taros that could rival Imperial technology, I suspect by the time the Imperium gets around to it, they're going to find the little blue buggers are flying things to rival necrons.

Tau technology has hit a brick wall, it hasn't advanced in any noticeable fashion since the Tau were rediscovered, the only changes are how they bolt things together. Even less so, considering their meteoric rise is due to suspiciously convenient discovery of useful alien technology.

Oh, and example of Tau Stagnation, they've known the Imperium for at least a hundred years according to the current timeline, probably multiple centuries.

Pulse Guns haven't changed at all in that time to our knowledge.

IvanTih wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
Thunderbolts and Thunderhawks(with the Turbo-laser) will run circles around them.

That's fine. They have guns in just about every direction, if you haven't noticed.

Considering that in a little bit more than 200 years they went from no space ships to the ones in BFG:A, and a bit longer to the ones at Taros that could rival Imperial technology, I suspect by the time the Imperium gets around to it, they're going to find the little blue buggers are flying things to rival necrons.

Tau technology has hit a brick wall, it hasn't advanced in any noticeable fashion since the Tau were rediscovered, the only changes are how they bolt things together. Even less so, considering their meteoric rise is due to suspiciously convenient discovery of useful alien technology.

Oh, and example of Tau Stagnation, they've known the Imperium for at least a hundred years according to the current timeline, probably multiple centuries.

Pulse Guns haven't changed at all in that time to our knowledge.

I don't think it's really stagnation, but that they're advancing at a glacial pace to begin with. In six thousand years they went from where we were three thousand years ago to where we'll be within the next half century (minus the magical space travel techs), and in centuries of warfare have progressed less in strategic terms than we did during vietnam alone. For the Imperium, stagnation makes sense: they're so incomprehensibly vast that any new technology couldn't be deployed on a large scale, their standard equipment is effectively the most ideal design for its respective roles, and their military leadership has literally seen every conceivable military operation from both sides at one point or another; there's really nowhere for them to go from there.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Melissia wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:The Tau aren't some pushover scrubs

Actually... yeah... they kinda are. The only reason they yet live is plot armor...

Everyone gets their fair share of plot armor.

So yeah, you could call them scrubs, but what does that make the Imperium for losing conflicts against them?

Actually, yes. Plot Armour is the biggest reason the Tau have defeated the Imperium the number of times that they have. I agree that every race has Plot Armour, but Tau have had considerably more.


If the Imperium wanted to, they could EASILY put together the forces to wipe out the Tau, to think otherwise would ignorant.

iproxtaco wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Melissia wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:The Tau aren't some pushover scrubs

Actually... yeah... they kinda are. The only reason they yet live is plot armor...

Everyone gets their fair share of plot armor.

So yeah, you could call them scrubs, but what does that make the Imperium for losing conflicts against them?

Actually, yes. Plot Armour is the biggest reason the Tau have defeated the Imperium the number of times that they have. I agree that every race has Plot Armour, but Tau have had considerably more.


If the Imperium wanted to, they could EASILY put together the forces to wipe out the Tau, to think otherwise would ignorant.

They could do the same with the Eldar and dozens of other races. Of course, the Imperium is currently at the verge of breaking appart, with elements of HiveFleet Leviathan approaching ( while other parts of the Hivefleet seem to eviscerate the orkempire of Oktarious far quicker than expected ), splinters of Kraken still ravaging the eastern fringe, the loss of thousands of systems to rebellion and Daemonic invasion within a single year ( Night of a Thousand Rebellions and the Great Awakening ), Thraka creating the perhaps biggest WHAAGH since Ulanor ( sure, atm only Armageddon and the surounding systems are under siege, but defeat there might doom many other, much less well defended worlds ) and the 13. Black Crusade still going strong ( which forces the already beleaguered Imperium to strip troops from worlds on the other side of the galaxy... ) the Imperium of Man might actually be unable ( -> the resources do of course exist, but they are required to keep the Imperium together ) to start a long and resource-intensive crusade against a relatively minor thread ( one which has yet to conquer a single truly important world within the Imperium ).

KingDeath wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Melissia wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:The Tau aren't some pushover scrubs

Actually... yeah... they kinda are. The only reason they yet live is plot armor...

Everyone gets their fair share of plot armor.

So yeah, you could call them scrubs, but what does that make the Imperium for losing conflicts against them?

Actually, yes. Plot Armour is the biggest reason the Tau have defeated the Imperium the number of times that they have. I agree that every race has Plot Armour, but Tau have had considerably more.


If the Imperium wanted to, they could EASILY put together the forces to wipe out the Tau, to think otherwise would ignorant.

They could do the same with the Eldar and dozens of other races.

Hand me the weed, I want some too. Of the major races in the 40k Universe (and by major I count those with a Codex of their own), the only one the Imperium could feasibly destroy without losing the rest of the galaxy is the Tau.

I should have added that. They could easily put together the resources but the Tau are a very minor threat in the grand scale of things. They could always put together a lot of different squads of Marines, raise new regiments, but what would be the point?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Melissia wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:The Tau aren't some pushover scrubs

Actually... yeah... they kinda are. The only reason they yet live is plot armor...

Everyone gets their fair share of plot armor.

So yeah, you could call them scrubs, but what does that make the Imperium for losing conflicts against them?

Actually, yes. Plot Armour is the biggest reason the Tau have defeated the Imperium the number of times that they have. I agree that every race has Plot Armour, but Tau have had considerably more.


If the Imperium wanted to, they could EASILY put together the forces to wipe out the Tau, to think otherwise would ignorant.

They could do the same with the Eldar and dozens of other races.

Hand me the weed, I want some too. Of the major races in the 40k Universe (and by major I count those with a Codex of their own), the only one the Imperium could feasibly destroy without losing the rest of the galaxy is the Tau.

And yet they only have a few craftworlds and a bunch of Exodite worlds left, nothing too impressive on the galactic scale.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Melissia wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:The Tau aren't some pushover scrubs

Actually... yeah... they kinda are. The only reason they yet live is plot armor...

Everyone gets their fair share of plot armor.

So yeah, you could call them scrubs, but what does that make the Imperium for losing conflicts against them?

Actually, yes. Plot Armour is the biggest reason the Tau have defeated the Imperium the number of times that they have. I agree that every race has Plot Armour, but Tau have had considerably more.


If the Imperium wanted to, they could EASILY put together the forces to wipe out the Tau, to think otherwise would ignorant.

They could do the same with the Eldar and dozens of other races.

Hand me the weed, I want some too. Of the major races in the 40k Universe (and by major I count those with a Codex of their own), the only one the Imperium could feasibly destroy without losing the rest of the galaxy is the Tau.

I want what you're already smoking because that's not what he said. He said 'dozens of other races'. Not the major ones with a codex.

KingDeath wrote:They could do the same with the Eldar and dozens of other races.

The population of the Craftworlders works out to better than half that of the Guard, and they make a point of keeping the Craftworlds away from anywhere they might be found.

Of course, the Imperium is currently at the verge of breaking appart, with elements of HiveFleet Leviathan approaching ( while other parts of the Hivefleet seem to eviscerate the orkempire of Oktarious far quicker than expected ), splinters of Kraken still ravaging the eastern fringe,

The entirety of the damage Tyranids have managed works out to less than .02% of the Imperium, and they've been repeatedly shown to completely collapse into nigh-harmless fragments if the fleet itself is crippled, only being able to threaten anything more dangerous than a cardboard cutout after decades of being ignored.

the 13. Black Crusade still going strong ( which forces the already beleaguered Imperium to strip troops from worlds on the other side of the galaxy... )

The entirety of the Traitor legions works out to significantly less than the loyalists, and the loyalists are so few in number as to be all but irrelevant outside Matt Ward's incoherent ramblings.

the Imperium of Man might actually be unable ( -> the resources do of course exist, but they are required to keep the Imperium together ) to start a long and resource-intensive crusade against a relatively minor thread ( one which has yet to conquer a single truly important world within the Imperium ).

The whole of the Tau military works out to around one ten thousandth that of the Imperium. They're even more harmless than the Tyranids, as evidenced by the trouble they're having dealing with the aforementioned nigh-harmless fragments thereof.

iproxtaco wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

KingDeath wrote:
They could do the same with the Eldar and dozens of other races.

Hand me the weed, I want some too. Of the major races in the 40k Universe (and by major I count those with a Codex of their own), the only one the Imperium could feasibly destroy without losing the rest of the galaxy is the Tau.

I want what you're already smoking because that's not what he said. He said 'dozens of other races'. Not the major ones with a codex.

Better?

This is all useless. The IoM's problem isn't the Tau, it's Chaos first and everyone else except the Tau second.

If the BT's are so under-employed they have the time to set up a campaign against the Tau, they should pull their thumbs out of their bums and invade the Eye of Terror.

Once Chaos has been crushed, a new Golden Age will allow the IoM to quickly deal with the Necron, Tyranid and Ork threats. Then conquer the Eldar, invade the Webway and obliterate the Dark Eldar.

Who's left after all that is done?

Right, the Imperium COULD wipe out other races that don't have a codex sure. You know, races that are actually competent and pose a threat but don't have enough plot armor to get a codex?

All the while as I'm reading all of this debating I was starting to wonder what GW was going to do to the Tau back story in the next Codex. Being that the last book was all about them making the Empire bigger what is the likelihood that GW might say the Empire got even bigger in the next book. In galactic terms it would probably mean the Tau capturing 5 new worlds (peanuts in the grand scheme of things.) Unless they go and do something totally absurd like saying the Empire doubled or tripled in size. (very unlikely) but there have been stranger things to happen.

IvanTih wrote:

Tau technology has hit a brick wall, it hasn't advanced in any noticeable fashion since the Tau were rediscovered, the only changes are how they bolt things together. Even less so, considering their meteoric rise is due to suspiciously convenient discovery of useful alien technology.

Oh, and example of Tau Stagnation, they've known the Imperium for at least a hundred years according to the current timeline, probably multiple centuries.

Pulse Guns haven't changed at all in that time to our knowledge.

Not true, as we see in IA:3. The older Tau ships from the period of Initial Imperial contact are slowly being replaced by newer models (IA:3 and BFG FAQ2010)

Their basic infantry weapons have not really changed, but plasma weapons such as the pulse rifle are generally acknowledged as some of the most powerful mass produced infantry arms in 40k (in fluff and the 40k RPGs, anyway). They're quite comparable to bolters, which they have superior range compared to. Further, new marks of power armor come into existence all the time.

Unlike the Imperium, Tau technology is *not* at a standstill.

The Imperium isn't as technologically stale as the internet makes it out to be.