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Grey Templar wrote:from what I have seen of Spartens they simply look like slightly taller and buffer humans.


they still have Human proportions meaning they have muscle mass comperable to a normal human of the same size and height.


Space Marines are altered to the point where they are no longer the same species(Homo Astartes)
.

The same is true of the Spartan. They are officially classed as a different species by the Forerunners.

A Spartan is taller, usually around 7ft-7.5ft in height, he doesn't have to have physically bigger mussles when his/her mussles are physically better. The design and layout of the mussle fiber of a Spartan is far more complex and enhanced than say a Space Marines. So while not as bulky, it grants similar strength levels (we have normal humans today whose mussles are naturally different from you and me who can lift refrigerators with a finger, because the mussles are wired a little different). Plus, being physically bulkier is a bad thing for reflex and speed. On shear bulk alone the Spartan is faster by far.

A Spartan's bones are virtually unbreakable/indestructible. Their skeletal structure is basically a direct rip off of Wolverine and his Adamantium skeleton.

Their shield isn't to wimpy as it can allow a Spartan to survive re-entry and impact with the earth and get up and keep fighting immediately after it and still be bouncing enemy fire off of it (as seen in the Halo Graphic Novel, which is cannon).

Absorbing memories of the dead does nothing for you in a straight fight, nor does breathing underwater, nor being immune to poison.

Now, a Marine is definitely stronger than a Spartan III, but much slower. Spartan IIIs actually are more mentally modified than a standard Spartan enabling them to move and act even faster, but they aren't as physically prodigious. They also lack a shield, but they back it up with invisibility (which if the HH novels have anything to say about it, only a very select and special poly anna Marine can figure out how to counter it, and then only after an invisible warrior has had his way with his squad and eaten them for breakfast).

As to taking cover/not taking cover, Marine cannon has Marines taking cover when they can. Sound military doctrine - why get shot in the face if you don't have to. Neither armor is invincible, so don't wade in and be killed. Heck, the Emporer's Children are famous for their use of it and cross fire patterns.


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Grey Templar wrote:another point is this,



the Spartens have taken 66% casualities since their inception.


Space Marines are still at full strength(Casualities are replaced)



a Marine can be replaced, a Sparten can't.

Which is not a true statistic, Spartan IIIs are cranked out and produced quickly and regularly. They're disposible super soldiers. We only know that the original Spartan II class is that badly shot up.

Space Marine muscle is both Bulkier and layed out differently so thats basically an equal comparasin, except the marine has more mass.




and what is it that makes Sparten armor so heavy?

a 7 foot tall suit of armor would have to be unbelievably dense to weigh that much.


how could even a super soldier move with a suit that dense?

Grey Templar wrote:Space Marine muscle is both Bulkier and layed out differently so thats basically an equal comparasin, except the marine has more mass.

?

But it's not, nothing a Space Marine has done in any of the books I've read strength wise is outside of a Spartan's ability.

The armor has various strength enhancing attributes. A normal human could wear it, but can't survive wearing it (it amplifies motion and reaction time, such that it will litterly snap you in half if you are a human, the first human trials permanantly crippled or killed the human test pilots).

Grey Templar wrote:Space Marine muscle is both Bulkier and layed out differently so thats basically an equal comparasin, except the marine has more mass.




and what is it that makes Sparten armor so heavy?

a 7 foot tall suit of armor would have to be unbelievably dense to weigh that much.


how could even a super soldier move with a suit that dense?

Their MJOLNIR Armour is a suit made up of a temperature regulating and body form gel layer, beneath a liquid crystal composite layer which acts like a human nervous system. It can hold an AI, doubles the strength of a SPARTAN and increases reaction times by a factor of 5. Over this is a Titanium/tungsten black flexible suit under plates of titanium which cover the chest, arms, thighs, shins, back, helmet and shoulder. On top of this is a thin energy dissipating layer. The Fusion reactor at the back along with a natural human-static ion system powers the energy shield, which can take a fair amount of punishment from projectile weaponry, less effective against energy weapons, although is a lot more durable than "it dies in a few hits". The entire suit is connected with the wearer by a standard neural link, which also allows an AI to interact with a SPARTAN, increasing accuracy and reaction times, it CANNOT control the SPARTAN.

Free movement is capable sue to the SPARTANs already stupid reaction times, their extreme muscle and bone strength and density, which allows them to be able to control the liquid crystal composite layer so it does not cripple them when it causes reaction times to increase. A mere thought will translate into movement, coupled with bone breaking speed and strength, would cripple or kill an un-modified human, which occurred during testing.

The Space Marines are a lot like the Brutes. Power armored, stronger, more savage and close combat oriented. Now, SPARTANS are able to take them out without a huge amount of difficulty, should give more of an idea.

iproxtaco wrote:
The Space Marines are a lot like the Brutes. Power armored, stronger, more savage and close combat oriented. Now, SPARTANS are able to take them out without a huge amount of difficulty, should give more of an idea.

I never read any of the books\comics etc, but I have played the game...alot..like 1000+ games...but in combat, unarmed, a brute would wipe the floor with a spartan....

Which has proven to be wrong in various cannon sources. If all you have to go on is the game, then I'm surprised you don't agree. They're tough on the highest difficulty, not near as punnishing as Elites, but I've played about 20,000 games across 1, 2, 3, ODST, Reach, and I quite easily wipe the floor with brutes in CC.

iproxtaco wrote:Which has proven to be wrong in various cannon sources.

Would the game not be canon? AFAIK the game came first.

Soladrin wrote:DBZ > ALL when it comes to stupid power.

Nah, plenty of comic book characters overpower DBZ. Like all the matter/reality-rearranging ones.

Toastedandy wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Which has proven to be wrong in various cannon sources.

Would the game not be canon? AFAIK the game came first.

The events yes, the physical capabilities and attributes aren't represented well, much like 40k in game. That doesn't really disprove my point though. Brutes are still fairly easy opponents in game as a SPARTAN II.

I always liked the idea of an epic struggle by one man against fleets of well armed well trained aleins. But if its more of a case of the Spartan being able to pwn everything in combat, shooting, tactics etc, I honestly dont know how its popular.

The books depict them as they should be, the games are the medium which paints them as nigh invincible, but that's only during gameplay, the story is the same as the books. They are highly skilled, but are flawed due to their inhumanity, they are like robots, never giving up, never flinching in their duty, but very, very mortal.

I didnt think the games depicted them as invincible. I cant tell you the amount of times I died trying to complete legendary

On every other difficulty though, I can fly through Heroic, Legendary is the difficulty that is still fun because it's challenging. The games depict the Chief as nigh invincible, the books depict him as lucky, and mortal. He gets shot on his first mission.

Maniac_nmt wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Space Marine muscle is both Bulkier and layed out differently so thats basically an equal comparasin, except the marine has more mass.

?

But it's not, nothing a Space Marine has done in any of the books I've read strength wise is outside of a Spartan's ability.

The armor has various strength enhancing attributes. A normal human could wear it, but can't survive wearing it (it amplifies motion and reaction time, such that it will litterly snap you in half if you are a human, the first human trials permanantly crippled or killed the human test pilots).

in the Ultramarine books,


Uriel(or another marine perhaps) picks up the end of a Bulk Freighter and moves it about 5 feet to get it out of a hole in the ground.

Bulk Freghters are like Semi-trucks, but much MUCH larger.

then the marine threatens to turn a noblemens car around if he doesn't do so himself.



the only number I have heard for Spartens is bench pressing 2 tons.

that marine picked up at least ten times that weight and moved it several feet.

It was Sergeant Learchus GT, and he only pivots it technically, but he doesnt struggle while hes doing it.

Master Chief by a landslide.

He can flip Tanks and Warthogs when they roll over.


MC > SM

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Master Chief by a landslide.

He can flip Tanks and Warthogs when they roll over.


MC > SM

*sigh*
It has already been said by Bungie that this is for gameplay only.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Master Chief by a landslide.

He can flip Tanks and Warthogs when they roll over.


MC > SM

So can Space Marines, as noted several times in the thread. A Space Marine would probably be able to use one hand with the warthog, and would be able to pick up a mongoose and throw it at you.

Ah, but can said Space Marine flip said Tank without touching it? I didn't think so.

iproxtaco wrote:Ah, but can said Space Marine flip said Tank without touching it? I didn't think so.

A Librarian could.

Grey Templar wrote:

Maniac_nmt wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Space Marine muscle is both Bulkier and layed out differently so thats basically an equal comparasin, except the marine has more mass.

?

But it's not, nothing a Space Marine has done in any of the books I've read strength wise is outside of a Spartan's ability.

The armor has various strength enhancing attributes. A normal human could wear it, but can't survive wearing it (it amplifies motion and reaction time, such that it will litterly snap you in half if you are a human, the first human trials permanantly crippled or killed the human test pilots).

in the Ultramarine books,


Uriel(or another marine perhaps) picks up the end of a Bulk Freighter and moves it about 5 feet to get it out of a hole in the ground.

Bulk Freghters are like Semi-trucks, but much MUCH larger.

then the marine threatens to turn a noblemens car around if he doesn't do so himself.



the only number I have heard for Spartens is bench pressing 2 tons.

that marine picked up at least ten times that weight and moved it several feet.

It has been pointed out. Its size isn't given, any weight is just an assumption, I would assume that he lifted about 2-3 tons and then moved it a few feet since all it is described as is a "transport".


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Avatar 720 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Ah, but can said Space Marine flip said Tank without touching it? I didn't think so.

A Librarian could.

Touché.

Even if a SM could flip a tank the size of the ones MC flips, could he take the amount of plasma shots MC does?

;p

2-3 tons? Are you joking? Your typical Ford F-150 truck weighs that much. A "bulk freighter" would be at least the size of a garbage truck, which weighs on at over 5 tons.

But he isn't lifting the entire thing over his head, he lifts the back end, hence he isn't lifting the full weight of the truck so 2-3 tonnes is realistic.

Are you seriously trying to argue that a SPARTAN is anywhere near as strong as an Astartes? Ridiculous.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Master Chief by a landslide.

He can flip Tanks and Warthogs when they roll over.


MC > SM

you do realise that the thread specifies it as a SPARTAN, not Master Chief. most spartans arent as good as MC. If you get to use MC, we get to use Calgar, or Lysander, or a librarian, or some other IC. And i dont think that MC has defenses against the warp, so he will he ripped apart and the inside of his armour would become a bloody mess. Or he'd get smashed by someone. Aslo, as previously stated, the flipping is just for gameplay...so we can view this 2 ways

SM IC> MC
or
SM>SPARTAN

What if I am? A Spartan can lift 2 tonnes, how much can a Space Marine lift then oh enlightened one?

I feel it would be a tie, the Spartan in my eyes would be more nimble that a SM, and therefor able to out maneuver him. But the SM is super strong. So it could go many ways.

iproxtaco wrote:What if I am? A Spartan can lift 2 tonnes, how much can a Space Marine lift then oh enlightened one?

lol, everyone on Dakka is enlightened, every opinion ever posted on the site is a guaranteed fact!
(if you couldnt tell, i am being sarcastic)

And to clarify, I'm not trying to argue that a SPARTAN is stronger, simply that the two are a lot more balanced in their attributes than some people seem to think. At least debate the topic rather than jump to the assumption of that Space Marines are massively better due to your preferred fiction.