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2011/08/21 17:29:36
Subject: Re:How would Tau deal with Battle Titans?
The tau heavy rail guns can damage titans, and seeker missiles are able to disable void shields. So the question of whether or not the tau have the firepower to destroy a titan seem answered. The question left is, do they have the delivery systems to be able to fight multiple titans of the largest order.
I have not seen anything that indicates that the Warlord or even the Emperor class would be immune to these weapons, just that the tau would not be able to deliver the firepower using their currently available units.
Against any single titan, multiple Tiger Sharks and Mantas seem like enough. Sure they would also be dealing with the imperial navies fighters, but that is true in any battle, regardless of the presence of titans. The tau have other craft for dog-fighting and maintaining air superiority, so it is pretty safe to assume that, unless one side had a distinct advantage, the tau would be able to prioritize a titan.
But even against one battle titan, where you will need more than one good run to eliminate the threat, the single vector approach will fall apart. Look at it from the PoV of a table top player. If you know the only weapon that can hurt your titan is on aircraft, won't you bring a lot of AA gear and let the titan take care of the ground forces? That is the main weakness of the current Tau line up. To truly be able to fight a titan legion, they will need multiple delivery systems for the anti titan weapons. Even a single land based anti-titan weapon would force the Imperial forces to spread their resources.
So as it stands, I think a concentrated titan attack would decimate the tau (leaving out the space forces for now). The tau would need to develop (or, as is more common in the 40k verse, retroactively have) a better variety of anti titan weapons. Imho of course.
What would be more fun that arguing whether or not the IoM is really, really big and titans are invincible, would be speculating on what developments they may come up with for Titan v Tau. Mega ion cannons, Vespid nuetron cannons, XV9000 mega battle suits. Who knows?
Tau fans will always say: Manta and Railguns.
We would always say void shields and personal escort.
We need 3'rd party here ( Necron, Eldar and Ork fans ) to tell us the final judgment...
But seriously, Tau ( for now ) can't deal with bigger Titans then Warhound ( people don't say that with Emperor you can hold and entire planet for no reason ), if they ever encounter Titan Legion ( witch I doubt because all Titan Legions are not on disposal ) they would get stomped.
For Emperor and Imperium!!!! None shall stand against the Crusade of the Righteous!!! Kanluwen wrote: "I like the Tau. I just don't like people misconstruing things to say that it means that they're somehow a huge galactic threat. They're not. They're a threat to the Imperium of Man like sharks are a threat to the US Army."
"Pain is temporary, honor is forever" Emperor of Mankind:
"The day I have a sit-down with a pansy elf, magic mushroom, or commie frog is the day I put a bolt shell in my head."
in your name it shall be done" My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/2SSSR2
Viersche wrote:
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
the Emperor might be the greatest psyker that ever lived, but he doesn't have the specialized training that a Grey Knight has. Also he doesn't have a Grey Knight's unshakable faith in the Emperor.
The Emperor doesn't have a GKs unshakable faith in the Emperor which is....basically himself?
Ronin wrote:
"Brother Coa (and the OP Tadashi) is like, the biggest IoM fanboy I can think of here. It's like he IS from the Imperium, sent back in time and across dimensions."
Tau fans will always say: Manta and Railguns.
We would always say void shields and personal escort.
We need 3'rd party here ( Necron, Eldar and Ork fans ) to tell us the final judgment...
But seriously, Tau ( for now ) can't deal with bigger Titans then Warhound ( people don't say that with Emperor you can hold and entire planet for no reason ), if they ever encounter Titan Legion ( witch I doubt because all Titan Legions are not on disposal ) they would get stomped.
Tau fans will always say: Manta and Railguns.
We would always say void shields and personal escort.
We need 3'rd party here ( Necron, Eldar and Ork fans ) to tell us the final judgment...
But seriously, Tau ( for now ) can't deal with bigger Titans then Warhound ( people don't say that with Emperor you can hold and entire planet for no reason ), if they ever encounter Titan Legion ( witch I doubt because all Titan Legions are not on disposal ) they would get stomped.
Do you really think it's as clear cut as that? That everyone is a fan of only one faction? This is not simply an argument between Tau fans and Imperial fans.
I noticed that you have been arguing about everything...
From our universe laws to 40k laws...
From our technology to 40k technology...
From codex to novels, from "this is crap" and "this is great"...
From one viewpoint to another viewpoint...
From facts and claims to evidence and sources...
From logic to common sense...
From this one Titan thread you discussed almost everything there is to know about Tau and Imperium.
But in the end it all comes down to this: Tau don't have anything to counter the larger Imperial Titans - for now. This one sentence save 9 pages of moral, technological, logical and fan arguments.
For Emperor and Imperium!!!! None shall stand against the Crusade of the Righteous!!! Kanluwen wrote: "I like the Tau. I just don't like people misconstruing things to say that it means that they're somehow a huge galactic threat. They're not. They're a threat to the Imperium of Man like sharks are a threat to the US Army."
"Pain is temporary, honor is forever" Emperor of Mankind:
"The day I have a sit-down with a pansy elf, magic mushroom, or commie frog is the day I put a bolt shell in my head."
in your name it shall be done" My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/2SSSR2
Viersche wrote:
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
the Emperor might be the greatest psyker that ever lived, but he doesn't have the specialized training that a Grey Knight has. Also he doesn't have a Grey Knight's unshakable faith in the Emperor.
The Emperor doesn't have a GKs unshakable faith in the Emperor which is....basically himself?
Ronin wrote:
"Brother Coa (and the OP Tadashi) is like, the biggest IoM fanboy I can think of here. It's like he IS from the Imperium, sent back in time and across dimensions."
Brother Coa wrote:
But in the end it all comes down to this: Tau don't have anything to counter the larger Imperial Titans - for now. This one sentence save 9 pages of moral, technological, logical and fan arguments.
Except that they do...
They don't have anything to fight a big-boy Titan one on one, but they can oppose a larger class of Titan.
This thread shows multiple, incorrect uses of the term "counter."
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/08/21 19:51:44
There are some who walk until their legs fail them and they fall to the ground. I find that respectable.
Then there are those who drag themselves further. I find that admirable.
chaos0xomega wrote:
No clue, never read that before, although I recall reading that the weapons carried by the largest titans are basically the same as some of the lighter weapons carried by Imperial warships. As for getting close, it may have been to deny enemy AA defenses a chance to respond. If its flying in under the radar and out of sight, nobody is going to know its there until it popped over the ridgeline, as soon as it did that it becomes a VERY big target.
I'll try and see if I can find out where I read that. Had a quick look on the internet as well, and others seem to agree with it but no sources I'm afraid. That's possible, but wouldn't that suggest that their range is not suffient to take out Titans while outside the range of Imperial weapons?
Yes it is, was it directed as you? Apologies, as the rest of your post in this case seemed rather measured and well thought out.
It's alright. It's possible I was overestimating Battle Titan capabilities. They are, however, supposed to be a great threat on the battlefield that is difficult to defeat.
Tali'Zorah: I appreciate what you're doing here, Shepard.
Commander Shepard: Well, I care deeply about the quarian people.
Tali'Zorah: It's good to be back on the Normandy.
Commander Shepard: Let me know if it's too quiet for you to sleep, and I'll find you someplace louder.
Tali'Zorah: Hmm.
Garrus Vakarian: Uh, I was there when you two had your thing, remember? Just get a room and work it out.
Brother Coa wrote:I noticed that you have been arguing about everything...
From our universe laws to 40k laws...
From our technology to 40k technology...
From codex to novels, from "this is crap" and "this is great"...
From one viewpoint to another viewpoint...
From facts and claims to evidence and sources...
From logic to common sense...
From this one Titan thread you discussed almost everything there is to know about Tau and Imperium.
But in the end it all comes down to this: Tau don't have anything to counter the larger Imperial Titans - for now. This one sentence save 9 pages of moral, technological, logical and fan arguments.
Threads do tend to bounce around, but there was still a fair amount of talk of titans and the many ways the the tau can deal with them. Everything from the tiger shark. (It should still be useful on smaller battle titans.) To orbital strikes with icefire. To just running away.
2011/08/21 20:41:44
Subject: Re:How would Tau deal with Battle Titans?
In Savage Scared some stealth suits dropped on a Emperor class titan and after a lot of plasma cutting, they managed to disable a few weapons, so technically if they did that for long enough they might be able to cut inside and kill the crew or destroy a generator to cause it to explode or something.
Melta meets tank 1300
"If you can't kill it, you're obviously not putting enough bullets into it!"
2011/08/21 20:49:34
Subject: Re:How would Tau deal with Battle Titans?
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
And then they run into the problems of the crew themselves.
Titans are well prepared against boarding attacks, there is an armory on board with weapons and the crew is trained to fend off boarders. Warlord titans even have whole platoons of troops whose primart purpose is fending off boarders.
the real threat infantry pose is with short ranged anti-tank like Meltaguns and similer stuff. actually boarding the titan would be nothing short of suicidal except for the toughest shock troops like Skittarii(who are often fighting Traitor Titan Legions and do this often) and Space Marines.
another problem with boarding Titans is the danger factor in being inside when the thing comes crashing down, kinda like Helicopters. Tau wouldn't like that risk, especially if they have the option of railguns and Fusion blasters.
and finally, Tau don't like fighting in confined spaces. Tau are penalized in BFG when a boarding action is resolved, they are at 1/2 what a ship that size is normally capable of. especially considering that many other races get bonuses. Boarding would be a undesirable course of action.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote:
and finally, Tau don't like fighting in confined spaces. Tau are penalized in BFG when a boarding action is resolved, they are at 1/2 what a ship that size is normally capable of. especially considering that many other races get bonuses. Boarding would be a undesirable course of action.
The latest version of BFG changes that. It says they have new units trained in boarding.
2011/08/21 21:11:55
Subject: Re:How would Tau deal with Battle Titans?
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
You pay extra for that ability on the newer classes of ship. the older classes have to purchase veteran Fire Warriors for that to not be the case.
Its still in the fluff.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote:
and finally, Tau don't like fighting in confined spaces. Tau are penalized in BFG when a boarding action is resolved, they are at 1/2 what a ship that size is normally capable of. especially considering that many other races get bonuses. Boarding would be a undesirable course of action.
Why is this, fluffwise? Is it due to inexperience or the tau order of battle?
2011/08/21 21:37:50
Subject: Re:How would Tau deal with Battle Titans?
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Retribution wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
and finally, Tau don't like fighting in confined spaces. Tau are penalized in BFG when a boarding action is resolved, they are at 1/2 what a ship that size is normally capable of. especially considering that many other races get bonuses. Boarding would be a undesirable course of action.
Why is this, fluffwise? Is it due to inexperience or the tau order of battle?
Its due to the Tau not liking close quarters combat, even their ship weapons are focused mostly on ordinance like torpedos and strike craft and not hull weapons like weapons batteries and lances.
the Tau Custodian battleship has Gun batteries with 6 shots per side(both can fire forward), 2 lances(one on each side, both can fire forward), 6 strike craft, and 8 torpedos. the imperial Retribution class Battleship which costs almost the same amount of points has 12 weapon batteries per side, 3 dorsal lances(front/left/right), and 9 torpedos.
the Imperial ship also has 2 more hull points then the Tau ship and has better armor on the front.
the Tau advantage is that they can turn their torpedos after they are fired(imperial ones are fired in a straight line and keep going straight unless they can take the guided torpedo upgrade)
if a Tau fleet gets engaged at close range with just about any imperial fleet, the Imperial gun batteries and larger lance arrays will tear the soft Tau ships apart.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Of course tau can kill a titan. Whether it be a massive weapon, tactical planning, sabotage, etc., titans aren't invincible.
So yes, tau can kill a titan.
The main issue is, is this probable in combat? I really can't say. It seems to me that a powerful enough weapon system can destroy a titan. Or a powerful enough orbital/space-bound weapon (railguns, which do work in space [simple electromagnets guys, of course they work in space], could be applied here). Even enough massed flak from a ground based force could wipe out a titan.
The issue mostly is, how competent is each commander? If the titan has ample escort, and the tau are harried so as to make long range-fire inconsistent/weaker, then the Titan wins. Else the tau can probably over come it.
So really, the question is tactics. Technologically it's not impossible to overcome a titan. Tactically, then, it would depend on the skills of each commander.
Fiat Lux
2011/08/21 23:27:11
Subject: Re:How would Tau deal with Battle Titans?
Grey Templar wrote:
and finally, Tau don't like fighting in confined spaces. Tau are penalized in BFG when a boarding action is resolved, they are at 1/2 what a ship that size is normally capable of. especially considering that many other races get bonuses. Boarding would be a undesirable course of action.
Why is this, fluffwise? Is it due to inexperience or the tau order of battle?
Its due to the Tau not liking close quarters combat, even their ship weapons are focused mostly on ordinance like torpedos and strike craft and not hull weapons like weapons batteries and lances.
the Tau Custodian battleship has Gun batteries with 6 shots per side(both can fire forward), 2 lances(one on each side, both can fire forward), 6 strike craft, and 8 torpedos. the imperial Retribution class Battleship which costs almost the same amount of points has 12 weapon batteries per side, 3 dorsal lances(front/left/right), and 9 torpedos.
the Imperial ship also has 2 more hull points then the Tau ship and has better armor on the front.
the Tau advantage is that they can turn their torpedos after they are fired(imperial ones are fired in a straight line and keep going straight unless they can take the guided torpedo upgrade)
if a Tau fleet gets engaged at close range with just about any imperial fleet, the Imperial gun batteries and larger lance arrays will tear the soft Tau ships apart.
I'm not so familiar with bfg, but that makes the tau seem somewhat underpoweref :p
Tau fans will always say: Manta and Railguns.
We would always say void shields and personal escort.
We need 3'rd party here ( Necron, Eldar and Ork fans ) to tell us the final judgment...
But seriously, Tau ( for now ) can't deal with bigger Titans then Warhound ( people don't say that with Emperor you can hold and entire planet for no reason ), if they ever encounter Titan Legion ( witch I doubt because all Titan Legions are not on disposal ) they would get stomped.
A Manta is a titan equivalent that is somewhere in between Reaver and Warlord, so they are not ONLY capable of taking down warhounds.
Tau fans will always say: Manta and Railguns.
We would always say void shields and personal escort.
We need 3'rd party here ( Necron, Eldar and Ork fans ) to tell us the final judgment...
But seriously, Tau ( for now ) can't deal with bigger Titans then Warhound ( people don't say that with Emperor you can hold and entire planet for no reason ), if they ever encounter Titan Legion ( witch I doubt because all Titan Legions are not on disposal ) they would get stomped.
A Manta is a titan equivalent that is somewhere in between Reaver and Warlord, so they are not ONLY capable of taking down warhounds.
It's not really a titan equivilent though is it?
It can kill them but that doesn't make it equivilent to a titan.
A baneblade (or variant thereof) can kill a titan but that doesn't make it equivilent to a titan.
Dakka Bingo! By Ouze "You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry.
2011/08/21 23:31:15
Subject: Re:How would Tau deal with Battle Titans?
Grey Templar wrote:
and finally, Tau don't like fighting in confined spaces. Tau are penalized in BFG when a boarding action is resolved, they are at 1/2 what a ship that size is normally capable of. especially considering that many other races get bonuses. Boarding would be a undesirable course of action.
Don't think that applies anymore. There was something about Tau adapting new tactics (shooting through the walls of adjacent rooms) to stop invaders without coming to harm.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
purplefood wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:This is going nowhere guys...
Tau fans will always say: Manta and Railguns.
We would always say void shields and personal escort.
We need 3'rd party here ( Necron, Eldar and Ork fans ) to tell us the final judgment...
But seriously, Tau ( for now ) can't deal with bigger Titans then Warhound ( people don't say that with Emperor you can hold and entire planet for no reason ), if they ever encounter Titan Legion ( witch I doubt because all Titan Legions are not on disposal ) they would get stomped.
A Manta is a titan equivalent that is somewhere in between Reaver and Warlord, so they are not ONLY capable of taking down warhounds.
It's not really a titan equivilent though is it?
It can kill them but that doesn't make it equivilent to a titan.
A baneblade (or variant thereof) can kill a titan but that doesn't make it equivilent to a titan.
No it is actually considered a titant equivalent. Albeit a flying one, but if legs mattered than certain orky titans wouldn't really be titans.
Also, on a side note, the manta is the single largest model ever released by GW, Bigger than their reavers/warhounds/other titan varieties released for non-epic wargaming.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/08/21 23:33:11
purplefood wrote:
It's not really a titan equivilent though is it?
It can kill them but that doesn't make it equivilent to a titan.
A baneblade (or variant thereof) can kill a titan but that doesn't make it equivilent to a titan.
I took his statement as they are equivalent in that they both fulfill a similar role; supporting ground forces.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/08/21 23:33:54
There are some who walk until their legs fail them and they fall to the ground. I find that respectable.
Then there are those who drag themselves further. I find that admirable.
purplefood wrote:
It's not really a titan equivilent though is it?
It can kill them but that doesn't make it equivilent to a titan.
A baneblade (or variant thereof) can kill a titan but that doesn't make it equivilent to a titan.
I took his statement as they are equivalent in that they both fulfill a similar role; ground support.
Yeah but the manta does a lot more than just that...
Dakka Bingo! By Ouze "You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry.
im2randomghgh wrote:@ the Taros quote, no explosion because GW still hasn't taken their head out of their asses and learned what the Hell a railgun is.
MASS DRIVERS AND RAILGUNS ARE NOT THE SAME THING.
MASS DRIVERS ARE A SUB-TYPE OF COIL/GAUSS GUN, AND RAILGUNS ARE NOT
It's their world, so they can write whatever they want.
In 40k Railguns don't explode on impact...
Very true, but that doesn't mean the target won't explode due to the damage.
Now this is a missile, but this is a special type of missile called LOSAT. The killing principle of this missile is pretty simple, it accelerates a solid metal penetrator to extreme speeds and drives it into the target as hard as possible. Essentially the same kill mechanism as a railgun.
Tank go boom.
Tau and Space Wolves since 5th Edition.
2011/08/21 23:50:52
Subject: Re:How would Tau deal with Battle Titans?
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
The Manta is primarly a troop lander and a bomber to strafe enemy space ships.
in BFG it is very slow compared to other ordinance(only Thunderhawks are the same speed) like Imperial Bombers and Fighters. its only advantage is durability(4+ save compared to other ordinance which is destroyed if hit. thunderhawks and eldar craft have this save too)
Manta's as surface attack craft, while they have big guns, are very slow compared to Imperial Air support. like Thunderhawks and Thunderbolts. Thunderhawks and Thunderbolts are far more maneuverable then it, meaning it will find it almost impossable to bring its Heavy Railguns to bear on them and must rely on Burst Cannons(which in the game can't even glance the Thunderhawk's Av12. IIRC the Thunderbolt also has Av12)
While a Manta certaintly could drop a Titan, it couldn't do so unless it had heavy Baraccuda support to chase off Imperial fighter cover and even then its risky as the Titan itself could draw a bead on the approaching beast.
Warhounds could probably, assuming heavy urban terrain, even avoid the fire completely with its amazing agility.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
nomotog wrote:Warhounds have amazing agility? How agile are we talking here?
In terms of titans they have surprising manoeuvrability...
Dakka Bingo! By Ouze "You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry.
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
For Emperor and Imperium!!!! 
"Pain is temporary, honor is forever" 
in your name it shall be done" 
1300
" -KingCracker