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themrsleepy wrote:The deceiver may not have a ranged attack, but the ability to pin a fearless unit is not to be trifled with.

There are so many fearless/LD 9 or 10 units out there I just don't see how it's that useful.

The only edge the Deceiver has over the Nightbringer in my opinion is the Grand Illusion.

unless you are playing IG, tau, DE... only if you play against marines all day is that really the issue. Pinning a boys squad when they are ready for the charge can be an amazing asset to an army that runs from combat faster than a lightning strike. And, Big D is 60 points cheaper, thats an extra destroyer if need be.

themrsleepy wrote:unless you are playing IG, tau, DE... only if you play against marines all day is that really the issue. Pinning a boys squad when they are ready for the charge can be an amazing asset to an army that runs from combat faster than a lightning strike. And, Big D is 60 points cheaper, thats an extra destroyer if need be.

The only one of those examples of possible Deceiver victims are Tau, and it's the least of that that army's problems.

And people run non-fearless Ork Mobs? They shouldn't.

Fearless units can be pinned with the deceiver that's what makes it so awesome.

themrsleepy wrote:Fearless units can be pinned with the deceiver that's what makes it so awesome.

You know you're right? I forgot about that.

Still, most fearless units still have a rather high LD. But that does make it a little better!

themrsleepy wrote:The deceiver may not have a ranged attack, but the ability to pin a fearless unit is not to be trifled with.

Oh I don't discount any of the deceivers abilities, that's for sure. But one can't dismiss the nightbringers ability to hit everyone within about 2.5" of him (that's about how far out the big blast marker/template reaches) and not allow armor saves. Sure it might only be a Str 4 hit but against larger mobs when you have more guys than attacks, it is a great boon. My buddies BT army did not like that when I wiped out over half of a squad in one round of CC. Plus, since it ignores armor it also ignores FNP. Yes I know that their normal attacks ignore inv saves as well and are much higher str but I still think that it's an underrated ability by many.


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Monster Rain wrote:

themrsleepy wrote:Fearless units can be pinned with the deceiver that's what makes it so awesome.

You know you're right? I forgot about that.

Still, most fearless units still have a rather high LD. But that does make it a little better!

A good reason to pair him with some pariahs and use their LD lowering ability as best you can. Ya know, if the pariahs don't just get wasted right off the bat.

Kevin949 wrote:It's a nice ability sure, but the over-all destructive capability of the nightbringer is much higher and he at least has a ranged attack as well (not to mention the ONLY AP1 attack in the necron army, not counting the dead center of the lith whip).

A one shot, short ranged attack that happens to be AP2. It's a BS 4 24" lascannon, and lascannons are not really in great demand these days. Both C'tan must get into CC to accomplish anything significant, and yet the NB is much more easily outrun or outmanuvered. While the D can cover 19" on average between a HnR and the 6+6, not only allowing him to bounce into, say, an IG vehicle line but also protecting him from being eaten by Swarmlords, powerfist squads, or Mephiston. Or charging into some unit way over there that the NB has no hope of reaching until 2 or 3 turns from now.

The NB does do more potential damage, but the damage each can cause isn't that different thanks to partials on Gaze. You'll generally only autohit 6 models as the second ring isn't completely covered. (If only they hadn't specified partials ....) The difference is that the D is vastly more mobile, and that means the difference is between choosing what your Deciever eats and having your opponent choose what to feed to the NB.

True Pariah Deceiver combo is a good one. Keep those pariahs shielded with a gunline formation of warriors. Keeping the warriors away from the long range high strength shots, usually shielded with liths. Good 'ol golden rule of Necrons, deny everything you can until you are ready to dakka it down. Can't deny everything, but denying enough can change your game drastically. Heck, want proof? That's what guass weapons in this edition are all about, not killing vehicles, denying them the chance to shoot. A single glance and something isn't shooting, 20 shots from a ten warrior squad will do nicely thanks.

The Grog wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:It's a nice ability sure, but the over-all destructive capability of the nightbringer is much higher and he at least has a ranged attack as well (not to mention the ONLY AP1 attack in the necron army, not counting the dead center of the lith whip).

A one shot, short ranged attack that happens to be AP2. It's a BS 4 24" lascannon, and lascannons are not really in great demand these days. Both C'tan must get into CC to accomplish anything significant, and yet the NB is much more easily outrun or outmanuvered. While the D can cover 19" on average between a HnR and the 6+6, not only allowing him to bounce into, say, an IG vehicle line but also protecting him from being eaten by Swarmlords, powerfist squads, or Mephiston. Or charging into some unit way over there that the NB has no hope of reaching until 2 or 3 turns from now.

The NB does do more potential damage, but the damage each can cause isn't that different thanks to partials on Gaze. You'll generally only autohit 6 models as the second ring isn't completely covered. (If only they hadn't specified partials ....) The difference is that the D is vastly more mobile, and that means the difference is between choosing what your Deciever eats and having your opponent choose what to feed to the NB.

Is it AP2? Man, I always think it's AP1 for some reason. Know what's funny though? The GW website description for him says it's AP3, haha.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440255a&prodId=99110110014

Ya, that partials rule is crap especially considering they changed it in the main rulebook, but we all know how that goes.

Deceiver is only more mobile if there are units for him to hit-and-run between and even then it ONLY works on your opponents turn anyway so it's really up to your opponent to put his guys in the path of the deceiver or to constantly assault him to allow you to get that extra movement.

Monster Rain wrote:

themrsleepy wrote:The deceiver may not have a ranged attack, but the ability to pin a fearless unit is not to be trifled with.

There are so many fearless/LD 9 or 10 units out there I just don't see how it's that useful.

The only edge the Deceiver has over the Nightbringer in my opinion is the Grand Illusion.

There's a couple of others i can think of: hit and run (which, while similar to nightbringer's knockback, is probably better for the deceiver's style of play), 60 points cheaper, and Dread is an underrated ability imo. Granted, the Deceiver doesn't have a move and fire short range las cannon. but the thing about Deceive is that, even if it doesn't work, what else is he going to be doing during the firing phase? He also makes a squad of pariahs a viable option.

Imagine: you're working your way up the board, you pop your pariahs out from behind your monolith and move them up towards a squad of (whatever), but you are well out of charge range. The squad wants to rapid fire you in the face, but they can't, because the deceiver just sent them to ground. But say you are in assault range, you can send them to ground, or Dread them, and that's a formula for ensuring their survival and earning back their points cost in assault if I've ever heard one.

To my mind, the nightbringer is a better stand-alone model, but the deceiver has a lot more room for tactical syncopation with the rest of your army--if your play-style plays to his strengths.

hemingway wrote:To my mind, the nightbringer is a better stand-alone model, but the deceiver has a lot more room for tactical syncopation with the rest of your army--if your play-style plays to his strengths.

You can adapt your playstyle to compliment the Nightbringer as well though.

His ability to ID TWC alone is good reason to take him.

The Nightbringer is just better.