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Most important advice: learn to relax. If you tense up it just hurts more when you get bent over and worked.

On to serious comments. There are four popular themes for Necrons: Destroyers, Wraiths, Constructs, and Mass. I'll leave HQ and Monolith comments for the end.

Note how 3 of the 4 revolve around FA choices. FA houses some of the best and most unique options in the army. Those 3 themes involve stacking Destroyers, Swarms, or Wraiths and hoping/planning for your opponent to become unable to deal with them. The last theme, Mass, is espoused by people afraid of Phase Out and generally involves a lot of Warriors.

I have no experience with the 30 Swarms 9 Spyders army, so I'll pass beyond mentioning that it exists.

I think Destroyers is the strongest of the 4. 15 Destroyers is a lot of highly mobile firepower, and I believe they are the best unit in the codex. The problem is that it excludes the best (and expendable) melee unit in the codex at the same time. Most people fill out the list with Immortals and/or Heavy Ds. Immortals are better, if shorter ranged and slower, AT than Destroyers against anything but AV 10. Less points per gauss shot. Heavy Ds are jetbike lascannons, with all of the problems and abilities that implies. They also tend to attract fire something fierce since knocking them all down isn't that hard.

Wraithwing seems fragile to me. 9 Wraiths with a D.lord sounds good on paper. 9 S6I6 attacks on the most mobile unit in the game with a 3++? The problem is that you just don't get enough Wraiths to matter. They don't do that much damage to MEQs. Or TMCs. Or IG blob squads. It's a cheap investment, leaving a lot of points for an Immortal firebase or Monoliths, but I don't think it's going to carry the punch needed considering this is shutting you off from the two best units in the codex. After all, if you charge 3 Wraiths against a Grey Hunters (1.66v2 for the GH) or Assault Marine (1.66v1.45 and the marines probably shot you with pistols first) unit you have a disturbing chance of losing while doing remarkably little damage. Remember, scarabs do more damage against most targets in melee while being disposable and having a LOT more wounds. It is cheap, though, at 580 points.

Mass usually means 30-40 Warriors plus a scattering of other units or whatever will fit from one of the other 3 themes in the points remaining. The problem I have here is that if your opponent can catch and kill 20 Warriors, he can probably do the same for 40. Either they are all in the same place so you can guard them and hopefully attrit the enemy with rapid fire shots, or you put a squad or two in strange places in hopes of the enemy not reaching both. If they are in the same place all it takes is a bigger multiassault or more template fire. If they are spread you have units sitting there doing nothing to prevent you from being tabled. In both cases I'd rather have more stuff killing the enemy than cowering in fear. And cowering in the right word. I had my entire 1850 army fleeing from a Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf one game. Any unit he hit died in a round or two until I finally Heavy Gaussed him to death on turn 4.

C'tan and Monolith spam are a personal choice, I think. Some people love them. Some hate them. The Whip is your best ranged tankbuster thanks to AP1 under the hole. A C'tan can be a great goalie for stopping assault units from reaching your infantry, but that's about all they can do. Even the Deciever (my preference) isn't fast enough to do much more. It's H&R makes it far more flexible than the Nightbringer.

Pariahs and Flayed Ones are both pretty terrible. Pariahs could be disposable firepower/counterassault, but it's so expensive. If there is a use for Flayed Ones beyond the Pariah/Flayed One combo, I don't know it. I don't like Tomb Spyders. They encourage you to split up your forces, and that tends to either get you defeated in detail in melee or get the Spyder shot to death and then the unit it was guarding shot to death. Modern rules make it hard to keep the powerfist away from them.

Pariah's special rules can make them worth it.

Combined with the Deceiver's abilities and the Nightbringer who will generally win any combat the LD modifier helps. You also have to make a check to assault a C'Tan so that's nice.

It can also really bone Mephiston, which is great.

Right up until they are shot to death as a high cost low wound unit. Enemies aren't just going to blunder into the LD 7 bubble and then go 'OMG, I'm LD 7! How did that happen? George what do I do!?'

If they are a threat, a small unit will be killed. A large unit is an incredible points investment. And who assaults a C'tan? Especially when the Pariahs are right there to be killed?

The Grog wrote:Right up until they are shot to death as a high cost low wound unit. Enemies aren't just going to blunder into the LD 7 bubble and then go 'OMG, I'm LD 7! How did that happen? George what do I do!?'

If they are a threat, a small unit will be killed. A large unit is an incredible points investment. And who assaults a C'tan? Especially when the Pariahs are right there to be killed?

The Pariahs are easily hidden from sight. And lots of things would assault a C'Tan.

The fact that you asked that tells me all that I need to know.

By definition, the Pariahs have to be within 12" of the C'tan at the very least. That means they are in threat range.

Much less if you expect Soulless to kick on the enemy charge. That requires ~6" proximity. Won't be any hiding behind the Monolith there.

Assaulting the Deciever is generally pointless unless you can sucker him into staying with models that might, but probably won't, hurt him. The list of things that actually want to assault the Nightbringer is less than 10 and at least 3 of those are special characters.

The Grog wrote:By definition, the Pariahs have to be within 12" of the C'tan at the very least. That means they are in threat range.

Yes, they are. And if someone assaults the Pariahs that close to the Nightbringer they are getting shot and charged by him next turn.

The Grog wrote:Much less if you expect Soulless to kick on the enemy charge. That requires ~6" proximity. Won't be any hiding behind the Monolith there.

It requires being close to the C'Tan, yes. I think if you actually looked at some models on the table you could see how such a thing could be arranged.

The Grog wrote:Assaulting the Deciever is generally pointless unless you can sucker him into staying with models that might, but probably won't, hurt him. The list of things that actually want to assault the Nightbringer is less than 10 and at least 3 of those are special characters.

Mephiston is one of them, is at a lot of tournaments, and the combo works pretty well on him. Like I said. Seer Councils are less than S10 and don't like Pariahs either.

Im failing to see how a council would get near pariahs, or how eldar would be incapable of shooting them. Unless the nightbringer has eternal warrior, mephiston can likely own him in combat, and any good ba army will bring enough firepower to level a pariah squad.

Far as people saying necrons are weak, they arent. They can just be extremely annoying to play against. My main gripe is the fact that no two necron players play wbb the same way, so every game we both have to learn that rule anew.

Monster Rain wrote:Yes, they are. And if someone assaults the Pariahs that close to the Nightbringer they are getting shot and charged by him next turn.

It requires being close to the C'Tan, yes. I think if you actually looked at some models on the table you could see how such a thing could be arranged.

Mephiston is one of them, is at a lot of tournaments, and the combo works pretty well on him. Like I said. Seer Councils are less than S10 and don't like Pariahs either.

Better eating 130+ points of Pariahs than bouncing off a C'tan. Somebody has to distract the goalie while other units move past, so you may as well get something done in the process.

And I'm sure you could see how many possible configurations where such a thing could NOT be arranged, given terrain and how many assault elements move 12" when your units don't.

There's nothing much Pariahs can do about a jetcouncil. They have every mobility edge and if necessary could probably assault the Pariahs and win despite losses. When it comes to the C'tan, they are perfectly capable of casting doom and whatever else from 20" and then killing the C'tan anyway. I've never seen or heard of a foot council in years.

Necrons have no answer to Mephiston beyond mass Destroyer-chassis firepower. LD 7 won't stop him from killing anything that's not a C'tan, and wings means he'll have the chance to charge the Pariahs and kill them first. He won't need S10 or rerolls for that. IF he doesn't kill them all, and you get a chance to charge him with the C'tan, then you get a pretty good chance of not getting force-weaponed. Depending on exactly when the force weapon test happens and how he splits his attacks. Testing on a 7 sucks, but it's still ~55%. It's not a solution I'd choose to try, and it won't work against Abaddon and the Swarmlord. Or Ghaz, but he's a long shot anyway. Hell, a Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf with EW and a Thunderhammer is a problem.

You put the Pariahs near what you don't want the Psykers to rush right for.

If you're castling they have to come for you eventually if they want to win.

IMO, arguing about Pariahs is a pretty futile thing as in the vast majority of cases they're simply too expensive to be justified. Particularly when this thread is about Necron tactics as a whole, Pariahs are outclassed and out-priced by so many things in so many armies. Particularly when you could take Immortals instead...

/shrug, in a sort of gimmick, a 10 man squad of Pariahs was pretty intimidating when I faced it.
I was thinking about not dealing with it, and going for everything else....but Deceiver was behind them, tomb spyders to the flanks of that...and 20 necron warriors huddling behind all that in cover on a quiet side or still in reserves.

I mean... at least on that occassion there was enough target saturation and in-your-face necrons that was a new experience and caught me off-guard.

Sanctjud wrote:/shrug, in a sort of gimmick, a 10 man squad of Pariahs was pretty intimidating when I faced it.
I was thinking about not dealing with it, and going for everything else....but Deceiver was behind them, tomb spyders to the flanks of that...and 20 necron warriors huddling behind all that in cover on a quiet side or still in reserves.

I mean... at least on that occassion there was enough target saturation and in-your-face necrons that was a new experience and caught me off-guard.

If a necron army actually takes that many "don't come near me" units, they are going to be hurting for fire power even more than usual. Unless your opponent is playing an all assault all the time list, they can usually afford to outshoot such a list. And there lies the problem with necrons. They can bring the all shooty army, and not lose due to being resilient against other ranged armies. Or they can bring a CC army, that can not lose to armies that rely on assaults. The problem is I said not lose, I didn't say win. Necrons draw quite a few games, because they usually lack the punch and mobility to actually win games. And in the matches where they don't get the advantage? yeah, rock vs paper ect. (and against balanced lists, its rather rough too, though its possible to take out all of the relevant threats and force a draw)

Yea, I was playing a bike army, so I resorted to just plinking away at stuff, but his (Gustikks) goal was to bully his way to sit on top of the other objectives and contest them.

Worked pretty well and we did draw. But granted, it was only one game with a very specific army list, not too much can be gleaned from it, but it was refreshing and different.

notabot187 wrote:

Sanctjud wrote:/shrug, in a sort of gimmick, a 10 man squad of Pariahs was pretty intimidating when I faced it.
I was thinking about not dealing with it, and going for everything else....but Deceiver was behind them, tomb spyders to the flanks of that...and 20 necron warriors huddling behind all that in cover on a quiet side or still in reserves.

I mean... at least on that occassion there was enough target saturation and in-your-face necrons that was a new experience and caught me off-guard.

If a necron army actually takes that many "don't come near me" units, they are going to be hurting for fire power even more than usual.

A small squad is 144 points. At higher point values you can still have plenty of Destroyers and Monoliths as well as a C'Tan.

You're not really hurting at all.

Well, to be clear, I was talking about a 10 man squad and he was replying to that 10 man squad :p

notabot187 wrote:

Sanctjud wrote:/shrug, in a sort of gimmick, a 10 man squad of Pariahs was pretty intimidating when I faced it.
I was thinking about not dealing with it, and going for everything else....but Deceiver was behind them, tomb spyders to the flanks of that...and 20 necron warriors huddling behind all that in cover on a quiet side or still in reserves.

I mean... at least on that occassion there was enough target saturation and in-your-face necrons that was a new experience and caught me off-guard.

If a necron army actually takes that many "don't come near me" units, they are going to be hurting for fire power even more than usual. Unless your opponent is playing an all assault all the time list, they can usually afford to outshoot such a list. And there lies the problem with necrons. They can bring the all shooty army, and not lose due to being resilient against other ranged armies. Or they can bring a CC army, that can not lose to armies that rely on assaults. The problem is I said not lose, I didn't say win. Necrons draw quite a few games, because they usually lack the punch and mobility to actually win games. And in the matches where they don't get the advantage? yeah, rock vs paper ect. (and against balanced lists, its rather rough too, though its possible to take out all of the relevant threats and force a draw)

Seconded on the draw! I have noticed that I can usually always pull a draw with tricky tactics, even when I am close to losing. But the massacre is nearly never possible for me to acheive against anyone who knows what they are doing against Necrons. It is highly likely to not lose with necrons. Win? possible, Win big, doubtful. I have played Necrons and only Necrons against every army, draws are a way of life, getting my face stomped in has happened, wins too. Tableing someone is an extremely luck day that you dont see often. That is why I am among the believers/hopers of that beautiful albeit possibly nerfing new codex. As far as tactics for always having a draw, when you're down to one or two destroyers hide them, make you're oppenent forget they exist, and turbo boost for the contest. Jetbikes get to go over all terrain and models without penalty! (obviously different story if they start or end in terrain)

Sanctjud wrote:Well, to be clear, I was talking about a 10 man squad and he was replying to that 10 man squad :p

A 10 man Pariah Squad will also be dishing out as much shooting as a squad of Immortals.

Just saying.

But anyway, I like Pariahs. I just like to buck convention I suppose. They work for me. YMMV.

I appreciate all the comments and continued discussion.

I'll be getting 70% of my Necron army...TOMORROW!

A few thoughts from me:

1. Originally, my thought was triple monoliths, wraiths out and about doing bad stuff, warriors behind the monoliths screened by a C'Tan. I played against IG; my monoliths eventually got immobilized, and before getting to do anything in the game, my C'Tan took many lascannons to the face, failed all his invul saves and fell over dead. I should be deep-striking those maybe?

2. The portal counts as a deployment edge, not as a vehicle for disembarking right? Meaning that a Monolith could deep-strike, and wraiths could spill out, move forward and assault?

3. Tomb Spyders: I thought these would be awesome because you can take units of three of them, and three tomb spyders each with a T6 scarab escort that can absorb 3 lascannon wounds before a scarab ever gets touched seems quite powerful, then I read last night in the codex that they are treated as individual units. Alright, that's not so awesome. A longfang squad would do bad things to a tomb spyder, even with a scarab base. Speaking of which....scarabs add +1 to their cover save, right? I would think it would be pretty easy for scarabs to be in cover (4+), meaning that 50% of the unit is in cover (4+ for the tomb spyder) meaning that the scarab gets a 3+ cover save. Does that also give a 3+ cover save to the Tomb Spyder?

4. Wraiths: My goal here with a "Wraith-wing" is 9 wraiths with a Destroyer Lord supporting. I tried this in the first game, and forgot to put a Monolith within 18". The Lord had a Rez Orb...I don't know if that means the Wraiths can get back up against double toughness though. I still have a lot to learn. If the wraiths can come out of the monolith portal and act normally, then I should have kept them behind my monoliths as they moved forward, then jetted out when I was in assault range or phased through the portal. Still need to learn that one.

I like the idea of deep-striking monoliths that pour out wraiths and immortals. I don't like the idea of bad reserve rolls that deny me the monoliths to carry this out.
I like the idea of 9 Tomb spyders with scarab screens....I don't like the idea that they come in units of 1. I guess that's 9 killpoints in 3 FoC spots?

I'm not sure what kind of balance I'll end up striking, or what it will look like at the end of everything, or maybe I'll have different variants that I play because I like them all (which would be different, because I tend to pick a theme in an army and stick with it against everything).

Some answers to your questions.

2. If the monolith has not moved AND the unit has not moved it may deploy from the portal on the monolith, move and then assault. So you can't move and assault if you deepstrike the monolith, but you can assault.

3. Correct, if the scarab base is in cover it gets a 3+ and the spyder get's a 4+. They can then both go to ground for a 2+ and a 3+ cover. Also remember that the spyder has a 2+ armor save so it should shrug off missiles from long fangs.

4. Res Orb means you can always get back up as long as their is another model of that type within 6". It doesn't matter if it's double toughness or a power weapon.

Are wraiths fleet? I don't see anything in their entry, but they don't have guns, so it wouldn't make sense if they weren't.

And can you bring multiple units out of a Monolith at once? If they fit? IE, a unit of 3 wraiths + A destroyer lord?

*presses the Gwar! button*

Also, I don't know if it was right or wrong, but I remember some people arguing over whether you can have warriors in monolith reserves/portals when there's only the required two squads?
Just a thought if it could be a problem with the maximum-monolith tactic?
Good Luck Though Dash, keep us posted eh?

Dashofpepper wrote:Are wraiths fleet? I don't see anything in their entry, but they don't have guns, so it wouldn't make sense if they weren't.

And can you bring multiple units out of a Monolith at once? If they fit? IE, a unit of 3 wraiths + A destroyer lord?

Nope no fleet, technically they are jetbikes. Which does mean you can boost them 24. And since they always ignore all terrain you can boost in and out of terrain with them.

Only one unit can come out of a monolith at a time. However the destroyer lord is an independent character so he can join the wraiths and then the whole unit can come out of the monolith. On a side note, as far as I can tell, Necron Lords can NOT port through a monolith by themselves, they must be attatched to a squad to do so.

The codex states that you cannot place any warriors in 'necron reserve' unless they are above the minimum of first 2 troops required for the mission. The faq states that you are still allowed to place them in regular reserve however. As stated you can assualt out of a monolith, you only get a movement with the teleporting unit if it and the lith has not moved (note that the monolith may move after). Also, the monolith entry states only one unit may use the teleport function per turn as well as if you have a necron warrior squad waiting in reserves and they become available you MUST pull them through rather than teleporting something else or firing the particle whip. Nope wraiths don't have fleet. Wish they did, but they do move like jetbikes, so maybe it's not necessary ( one more oorah for a new codex). If a lord is attached to the squad that is teleporting, he may go with them, it is counted as a single unit (like shooting at it). As for cover saves it was stated correctly, if the scarab is in cover, the tomb spyder gets cover as half the unit is in cover. However, the scarab does not confer stealth on the tomb spyder, and I am vaguely remembering that MC s cannot go to ground. Not for sure on that one, but I am thinking they cannot. Res orbs whole purpose is to allow WBB when it would be negated. That means all double toughness wounds and close combat attacks that ignore armor saves do not negate WBB if there is a res orb close.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh one note about wraiths that I forgot, They always strike at initiative because they never have to take terrain tests. So assualt that unit in cover, they get to strike at initiative rules as written. Even though their codex entry states their grenade rule, they never have to use them because of the way assualting through cover is written in the BRB

themrsleepy wrote: Also, the monolith entry states only one unit may use the teleport function per turn as well as if you have a necron warrior squad waiting in reserves and they become available you MUST pull them through rather than teleporting something else or firing the particle whip.

If you place warriors in reserve and declare they are arriving via the monolith then they must come out of the monolith (and if the monolith is destroyed and you have no other lith's the unit is destroyed). If you put the warriors in normal reserves then they cannot use the monolith and walk on the table edge as normal.

Not sure on if monstrous creates can or can not go to ground don't think I've ever tried it . Will have to look it up.

I didn't know about the 2+ warrior unit rule. Since I never plan on taking more than 2 units of Warriors, I guess that means that my warriors are going to be in regular reserve if I try the Monolith deep-striking tactic.

Sounds like it would end up being Monolith(s) deep-striking...and if I have average rolls, I should have 1-2 wraith units and 1-2 monoliths, possibly with a destroyer lord. I'd have to think about this though; if I don't get the destroyer lord, I have no rez orb for the wraiths. On the flip side, I can probably make sure that they'll be able to get out and assault something since the monolith can deep-strike on top of stuff and force it to just get out of the way.

Tomby Spyders....I thought they had a rez orb? I'm reading their entry and it doesn't say anything about it.

*EDIT* If Pariahs could exit a Monolith, they would be useful!

I think the spyder has 3+ cover too attached to a scara base which is in terrain. Why? Scara has 3+ save, Spyder has none. Majority counts -> 3+ for both.

Tomby Spyders....I thought they had a rez orb? I'm reading their entry and it doesn't say anything about it.

The only things that change or affect the WBB rolls are the rez orb and Tomb Spyder and Monolith.

Rez Orb: Only available on Lords. Allows a unit to roll WBB even if it was killed by 2x toughness weapons or CCWs that ignore armor saves.

Tomb Spyder: Allows a model to roll WBB even if there is not another model of the same type within 6". The Tomb Spyder must be within 12" of the downed model, and there must be another unit of the same type somewhere on the board.

Monolith: If a unit is within 18" of the monolith, and you have not used the power matrix for anything else that turn, you may teleport a unit through the monolith and it may reroll it's failed WBB rolls.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Tomby Spyders....I thought they had a rez orb? I'm reading their entry and it doesn't say anything about it.

No they just extend your wbb range for like model's. So instead of having a warrior with 6 inch's you can have them spread out. Very helpful keeping warrior's alive, and it makes it easier to stand back up if the entire unit is wiped out. It lets you spread out so that you can avoid getting multi-charged.

Yes if pariahs were necrons, we would be in business.... Even though their fluff says 'the newest necron' they don't count as necron... crappa? I believe so too. If they were teleporty, there wouldn't be a discussion on them being crappy, there would be discussion on them being overpowered by pansy people who play stupid armies with stupid undercosted over powered units and spam them. Sorry for the guard rant!

You can't assault out of a Deep Striking Monolith, just like you can't assault after disembarking from a moving vehicle that isn't open topped.