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The Grog wrote:

WarOne wrote:
The saving grace to any unit with a vulnerability is that an experienced player can remove such problems by using terrain and cover to keep the Wraiths from getting pin cushioned by Rapid Fire volleys.

To a point. Wraiths do it well with wraithflight, but they are still excellent targets for things like Land Speeders with HBs/HFs or Tac squads piling out of their Rhinos for a turn. TLOS makes this harder than it used to be, and a skilled opponent will specifically hunt the Wraiths with those units since there is little point in shooting Monoliths, C'tan, or really even Warriors with that stuff.

Every rock has a scissor.

Land Speeders are great annoyances anyway, as they can run up to Wraiths and pop them with flamers so long as there are no ranged fire support Necrons to retaliate against the Speeders.

I think its important to note that my three wraith squads are backed by THREE Monoliths.

Nothing shoots at my wraiths unless I want them to - they're hidden behind monoliths. That's an an all-encompassing statement about my Wraiths being awesome, just noting that tactics and utility of the units at my command effectively negate shooting threats to my monoliths.

I *have* run into deep-striking landspeeders trying exactly that - and they'll get a few shots off - a flamer if lucky scatters allow. Then they'll die and I'll continue ponderously moseying around. At least, that's what's been happening so far.

Dashofpepper wrote:I think its important to note that my three wraith squads are backed by THREE Monoliths.

Again, if there is no ranged support.

If you protect your vulnerabilities, you should be fine.

I claim not to be a master tactician, but I do assert that there will be a time when the Wraiths will be in a sore spot or their usefulness neutralized in some way.

Don't forget enough concentrated fire on the Monoliths will take one out eventually. Stupid Twin-linked Lascannons. Get about 20 shots off on my Monolith and finally burned it to the ground.

Broadsides tend to be the bane of my monos. They'll soak up lascannons all day, but damn railguns drop at least one a turn.

I don't know, I prob. don't use them well enough.
Wraiths seem so squishy for the cost.

As I see it, it's no different from a 3 man MEQ squad. Speedy, zippy, and strong.

Lacking anything armor save ignoring is something that is pretty alien to me for a squad that has those combat stats. Great vs. Vehicles, T3 ID, and stuff with poor armor saves.

Zippy, small squad size, and lithe enough to hide behind stuff. (Medium base can somewhat hinder this)
I'm thinking because I'm not running a Destroyer Lord with them is why they aren't looking 'as good' as those with more play experience say they are.

WarOne wrote:
HQ-
The Deceiver-300 points
Necron Lord on Destroyer Body, Lightning Field, Nightmare Shroud, and Phylactery with Warscythe-210 points

Troops-
10 Necron Warriors-180 points
10 Necron warriors-180 points

Fast Attack-
10 Scarab Swarms with Disruption Fields-160 points
4 Destroyers-200 points
3 Destroyers- 150 points

Heavy Support-
Monolith-235
Monolith-235

Target saturation is the key. I have two juicy Necron Warrior squads as bait for opponents to go after, and six other units that can pack a solid punch.

And quite the bait is is. With only 2 units that can claim objectives its critical that you don't lose them.

With only 28 necrons, your phase out number is 22, which seems painfully low. With no ress orb, every AT (MLs, LCs, MM, MG, etc) will be plucking off warriors.

But hey, its its working for you and your having fun, thats what counts!

Well, there is an arguement that a low phase out number can be 'better' if you can protect one Necron Warrior squad at the very least and worry about just killing the opponent with the rest of the list

I'm not claiming to be a Necron tactician - I've *had* Necrons for a grand total of 6 days, and am still fleshing out my army, gotta get a third monolith assembled so that I can stop proxying it, that sort of thing.

To date, my games have seen ridiculous abuse of my monoliths. My game against dual lash - he had two squads of obliterators on the field (of two obliterators each). 4 lascannons. Turn1 he gets a shaken on one. Turn2 he gets explodes on one, wrecked on a second. Turn three he pens and immobilizes the third with his one remaining obliterator squad. (Destroyer lord ate one squad, C'Tan ate the second).

I haven't gone up against Railguns yet - but I imagine that I would end up deep-striking monoliths on top of them, pulling wraiths through and assaulting them. I *like* having a low phase out number - you literally have to kill my entire army to phase me out. My warriors I protect as well as possible - they walk on from reserves in a corner, far away from combat, or into cover, or wherever they feel the safest - and when its time to deal with objectives, I teleport them onto an objective through a monolith later in the game.

I haven't combined deep-striking (reserved) monoliths with turbo-boosting wraiths+wraith-lord on turn1 yet; I had originally thought that wraiths could enter from reserves via a portal and it would have made necrons much more interesting and adaptable to play. Obviously against Tau I need to engage those Broadsides in close combat as soon as possible, so I suppose I'd have my destroyer lord + 9 wraiths on the field (if possible) zipping up on turn1, and then on turn2 getting a monolith down, repairing whatever wraiths I lost, a second WBB through the monolith portal to position me for an assault, and then typing up broadsides. I *realize* that there's a lot more to it than this general plan, but that's the start of what I'd plan.

Can you walk onto the board when a monolith is in the list?
I thought you had no choice in the matter and HAD to port them in if the monolith is in the list... though I'm not too familiar with Necrons as well.

As for low Phase out, yea, it just means you protect a few. This sucks if something deepstrikes later in the game to a good position to deal with them, so YMMV of course.

Sanctjud wrote:Can you walk onto the board when a monolith is in the list?
I thought you had no choice in the matter and HAD to port them in if the monolith is in the list... though I'm not too familiar with Necrons as well.

As for low Phase out, yea, it just means you protect a few. This sucks if something deepstrikes later in the game to a good position to deal with them, so YMMV of course.

It's actually answered in the Necron faq on the gw website for once.

Q. Can units of Necron Warriors enter from
reserve as normal or must they enter via a
Monolith?
A. If the players hold any units of Necron
Warriors in reserve, he must specify if they are
going to enter the game through the Monolith or
simply walk in from their own table edge, as
normal. If units of Warriors are using this rule
and all available Monoliths are destroyed, the
Warriors count as destroyed and may therefore
trigger the Phase Out of the on-table portion of
the army.

Dashofpepper wrote:
There are three army types I had considered at the 2k level:

#1: Destroyer Lord with 9x Wraiths + 3x Monoliths keeping 20 warriors in reserve.

#2: Destroyer Lord with 9x Wraiths + Lord on Foot + 20 Immortals + 2 heavy destroyers.

#3: Lord on Foot with 20 warriors (reserve?) + 9x Tomb spyders + Scarabs galore.

1. Thoughts on these three list types? Suggestions on changes?

PM Norbu the Destroyer; he has been running Ghost Crons (heavy wraith lists) for a few years now.

Dash I just want to warn you, and I hope this doesn't count as your jynx. Wraiths have this tendancy to do amazing for small periods of time, then all of a sudden, they stop getting back up. I think maybe mine drink to much, I don't know, but you will have a game and fail every WBB you could ever take (oh theres also some sort of temporal dice vortex in my backyard, pm gizmodious or hyperviper for contextual proof, odds are never even close there). Against Tau, take a Nightmare shroud. That destroyer lord isn't going to be shooting anyway, and I love running those broadsides right off the table with a little bit of fear, pathfinders out of cover, bla bla bla. Also, be aware of fire warrior shots on wraiths, that S5 rapid fire hurts... and bad. Other than that fantastic job mopping up that cheating ork! Glad I'm not the only one that enjoys assualting with a 'shooting' army

Sanctjud wrote:Well, there is an arguement that a low phase out number can be 'better' if you can protect one Necron Warrior squad at the very least and worry about just killing the opponent with the rest of the list

I'm in this camp.

A Lord with a Veil near a squad that has more than your Phase Out number is a great way to keep your models on the table.

It's also fun for objectives. I guess you could make it a squad of Immortals and still be able to shoot with them reliably.

A Lord with a veil has won or tied several games for me. Being able to teleport a troop choice to a needed spot you left alone for the entire game is quite a trick to do last turn.

Sanctjud wrote:I don't know, I prob. don't use them well enough.
Wraiths seem so squishy for the cost.

As I see it, it's no different from a 3 man MEQ squad. Speedy, zippy, and strong.

Lacking anything armor save ignoring is something that is pretty alien to me for a squad that has those combat stats. Great vs. Vehicles, T3 ID, and stuff with poor armor saves.

Zippy, small squad size, and lithe enough to hide behind stuff. (Medium base can somewhat hinder this)
I'm thinking because I'm not running a Destroyer Lord with them is why they aren't looking 'as good' as those with more play experience say they are.

I think you MUST run at least two groups, usually together, to get anywhere with them.

I just did some math....

Wraiths have a 48" assault potential.

If they're 18" behind a monolith with forward facing doors, they can be pulled through the 8" monolith, deployed 2" out with a 2" base, move 12" and then assault 6".

Yep. They're awesome.

Now add in the context of final game turn with Necrons going last. All of a sudden that squad in area terrain hidden from los holding his objective gets assualted and Wraiths get to strike first, locking them in combat, or driving them off, add a VOD lord with a squad of warriors and you may be able to control said objective with an awesome possibly unforseen potential of doom.

Dashofpepper wrote:I just did some math....

Wraiths have a 48" assault potential.

If they're 18" behind a monolith with forward facing doors, they can be pulled through the 8" monolith, deployed 2" out with a 2" base, move 12" and then assault 6".

Yep. They're awesome.

But only if you move neither of them first, as per the current FAQ. Boy, do I miss the days of the turn one wraith rush.

You still can if they get first turn and move up on you. 24" apart, they move up six, 2" deploy, 12" move 6" assualt. With two inches to spare

Dashofpepper wrote:



In a 2,000 point game last night against 2,500 points of Orks (Kan-wall backed by 120 boyz and 45 Lootas - he didn't know he was over points until today when he was looking at his list), I had 6 wraiths and a destroyer Lord attack a unit of 30 boyz. I killed a bunch, and on the return swings, he killed all but one wraith (phew), while the destroyer lord took a wound. That single wraith let me take WBB rolls on the dead unit and his two compadres. I think 3/5 got back up, and I pulled the whole thing through a Monolith to try for the other two and got one of them. 1 dead wraith, 50% dead boyz squad.

I don't know if I've read this wrong, but if your 2 X 3 Wraiths were seperate units when the Boyz knocked them down, then you would only be able to drag the Wraith squad with the single survivior through as IIRC you can't teleport squads that have no 'standing' Necrons left. So the Wraiths that had been smashed had only one chance at WBB, but the two in the surviving Wraiths squad were free to have a second go via the monolith. Unless of course the 2 that stayed down after the first WBB were in the survivors squad, if so then I'll shut up

As I see it, if entire unit dies and there is same model within 6'', it joins that unit with that model... So when you port last surviving squad of wraiths, you allow all the other (non alive model squad) wbb... Just my interpretation...
Doesn't mean it's true

Chinchilla wrote:As I see it, if entire unit dies and there is same model within 6'', it joins that unit with that model... So when you port last surviving squad of wraiths, you allow all the other (non alive model squad) wbb... Just my interpretation...
Doesn't mean it's true

It's discussed at some length in this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/294415.page
The key thinking being dead Necrons are not a unit anymore and cannot be teleported.

Anyway, I gave DashofPepper's list a try against my friend's IG today, except I benched the Deceiver for three squads of Flayed Ones with DF's (2 x 6, 1 x 5).

Rolled Take and Hold and Spearhead and i took the roll for first. Spent the first turn porting the Wraith squads and Lord forward, then turboboosting. Warriors and FO's in normal reserve and outflank respectively.

Lost one Lith to two Medusa's fire. Three Wraiths put down, Lord wounded.

The survivors assisted by a squad of FO's smash into the Guard infantry, Inquistor and Eversor holding the enemy base and clear the woods by turn five. Monoliths shoot down a Vendetta and port guys around as required. Game ends turn five with a draw, bases contested or not claimed. Needed another turn to get my warrirors forward to claim his base and clear the three guard squads that contested mine.

All in all a very effective list. I was quite shocked by the survivabilty of the Liths even against STR 10 AP1 shells.

Sir Harry Flashman, VC wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:



In a 2,000 point game last night against 2,500 points of Orks (Kan-wall backed by 120 boyz and 45 Lootas - he didn't know he was over points until today when he was looking at his list), I had 6 wraiths and a destroyer Lord attack a unit of 30 boyz. I killed a bunch, and on the return swings, he killed all but one wraith (phew), while the destroyer lord took a wound. That single wraith let me take WBB rolls on the dead unit and his two compadres. I think 3/5 got back up, and I pulled the whole thing through a Monolith to try for the other two and got one of them. 1 dead wraith, 50% dead boyz squad.

I don't know if I've read this wrong, but if your 2 X 3 Wraiths were seperate units when the Boyz knocked them down, then you would only be able to drag the Wraith squad with the single survivior through as IIRC you can't teleport squads that have no 'standing' Necrons left. So the Wraiths that had been smashed had only one chance at WBB, but the two in the surviving Wraiths squad were free to have a second go via the monolith. Unless of course the 2 that stayed down after the first WBB were in the survivors squad, if so then I'll shut up

A completely dead squad cannot be teleported, you are correct.

I still don't like that argument as it's only implied through a few rules that the original unit doesn't exist anymore. I still play it as the unit is gone, but I feel that's it's due more to an oversight in linking the monolith rules to that particular situation, than an intent to make the second WBB rolls impossible for a downed unit. Them's the breaks though.

Monster Rain wrote:
A completely dead squad cannot be teleported, you are correct.

hmm, but the instant you make WBB rolls the 'dead' Wraiths that pass the roll join the still existing unit. Do the 'dead' Wraiths that fail the role also join the existing unit? If they do, you'd move them all when you portal them.

Dash, would you attribute your success so far to the strength of the army, your own skill, or your opponents not knowing what your units can do or how to properly attack them?

The Grog wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:
A completely dead squad cannot be teleported, you are correct.

hmm, but the instant you make WBB rolls the 'dead' Wraiths that pass the roll join the still existing unit. Do the 'dead' Wraiths that fail the role also join the existing unit? If they do, you'd move them all when you portal them.

No, it's says the repaired necron joins the unit, there are no concessions for the damaged necrons to do so.

Why not? A 'dead' necron doesn't actually belong to any unit at all. If their original unit is still in existence, yet has no models within 6" of it, it will join a unit that does have models within 6. In this case, which unit do you have to portal to get the reroll? The original unit that the model isn't joining?

The repaired Necrons are part of a new unit, the dead ones are not.

If you teleport the unit that the repaired Necrons join, the ones that are still dead don't come along as they are not part of that unit.

You failed to address the point. If you have a long string of Necron warriors from two units

11111112222222

And a whole bunch of the '1' unit gets killed, but there are some remaining.

1******222222

Some of the casualties would roll to join unit 2. If you then portal unit 1, would you reroll ALL WBBs, even those that would join unit 2 if they stood up?

I would venture that you have to declare which unit the dead would join if they stood up, and then if a unit it portaled then the reroll affects all units that would join that unit if they stand up.

If unit 1 was teleported they would get WBB rerolls. If unit 2 was teleported, the dead from unit 1 wouldn't get a reroll.

If I'm totally misunderstanding the discussion here, please let me know. Gently...