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Monster Rain wrote:You can't assault out of a Deep Striking Monolith, just like you can't assault after disembarking from a moving vehicle that isn't open topped.

Correct, because the monolith counts as moving via the Deep strike rules. However, you can assualt after teleporting if it and the unit teleporting have not moved.

Sanctjud wrote:Yea, I was playing a bike army, so I resorted to just plinking away at stuff, but his (Gustikks) goal was to bully his way to sit on top of the other objectives and contest them.

Worked pretty well and we did draw. But granted, it was only one game with a very specific army list, not too much can be gleaned from it, but it was refreshing and different.

Well, aside from the C'tan sitting there you probably could have taken them. Pariahs aren't that good at melee, aside from a few units who depends on ++ saves.

1. Deep striking Monoliths is iffy at times. The footprint is big, making mishaps a problem. Furthermore, there is an irregularity with it's rules, the current deepstrike rules, and enemies within 1". I don't remember what that irregularity is. Additionally the best way to kill a Monolith is in melee combat. It is never hit on worse than a 4+ now and there are a lot more S10 models than there used to be.

2. The Monolith counts as a stationary vehicle for units moving through the portal, EXCEPT for assault. That was FAQ'ed out from under us. You can get out and move, always, but not assault unless the Monolith was stationary. Additionally, ONLY Warriors can come in from reserve through the portal and if present are required to do so if possible.

3. Spyders are T6, 3+. They follow normal wound allocation. I don't think the Spyder would get a 3+ if the Swarm was in cover. The bonus is by model, not by unit. They are both in cover, but only one has the rule.

4. Only one unit can emerge from a portal each turn. If you want the Wraithwing to work, you probably need to keep them together in one clump of 3 units.

All Necron units are classed as infantry. Even the ones that 'move as jetbikes' only 'move as' and are still infantry. And yes, Lords cannot be portaled individually.

The Grog wrote:3. Spyders are T6, 3+. They follow normal wound allocation. I don't think the Spyder would get a 3+ if the Swarm was in cover. The bonus is by model, not by unit. They are both in cover, but only one has the rule.

Incorrect. Half of a unit in cover grants the unit cover saves. The issue that can confuse is that MC(and vehicles) only count as in cover if they are 50% obscured. Since the swarm has no such restriction it can claim to be in cover and fulfill the 50% requirement for the entire unit.

Same as Hive Tyrant (/Swarmlord) with Tyrant Guard.

The problem with the monolith deepstriking rule is in 5th ed you are not destroyed if you land on enemy models, you "mishap". Now if you roll a "terrible accident" result on the mishap table you then procede like the monolith deepstriking rules tell you, moving models out of the way and such. However if you roll a "delayed" or "misplaced" result, you still get screwed. Getting a proper slingshot with wraiths and monos is tricky as a lot of things have to line up for it to work right, however if you can, it gives you up to a whopping 42" range that you can assault.

I think you should watch out Dash for taking too many high-priced units and not enough meat. 3 Monoliths and a C'tan may all be fantastic, nigh unkillable units.... but when you have to actually go out and kill enemy units, you really do not have a lot of firepower. And relying on Wraiths and a Destroyer Lord isn't going to resolve that.

Assuming more Warriors is generally bad, taking two units of Immortals with a Res Lord is a lot of firepower in a very resilient setup. If you port them around with a pair of monoliths, they gain a lot of maneuvrability as well.

What I think here is that with Wraiths+3 Mono+C'tan you have a very assault based, short ranged army.... but compare it to nearly any other army in the game and you realze you have a big slow guy, 10 decent ish guys without power weapons, and 3 invincible vehicles who will not make up their points.

I'd focus on less Monos and C'tan as the basis for your army, and instead try and see how to use them as Force Multipliers instead.

The Grog wrote:
Well, aside from the C'tan sitting there you probably could have taken them. Pariahs aren't that good at melee, aside from a few units who depends on ++ saves.

1. Deep striking Monoliths is iffy at times. The footprint is big, making mishaps a problem. Furthermore, there is an irregularity with it's rules, the current deepstrike rules, and enemies within 1". I don't remember what that irregularity is. Additionally the best way to kill a Monolith is in melee combat. It is never hit on worse than a 4+ now and there are a lot more S10 models than there used to be.

2. The Monolith counts as a stationary vehicle for units moving through the portal, EXCEPT for assault. That was FAQ'ed out from under us. You can get out and move, always, but not assault unless the Monolith was stationary. Additionally, ONLY Warriors can come in from reserve through the portal and if present are required to do so if possible.

3. Spyders are T6, 3+. They follow normal wound allocation. I don't think the Spyder would get a 3+ if the Swarm was in cover. The bonus is by model, not by unit. They are both in cover, but only one has the rule.

4. Only one unit can emerge from a portal each turn. If you want the Wraithwing to work, you probably need to keep them together in one clump of 3 units.

All Necron units are classed as infantry. Even the ones that 'move as jetbikes' only 'move as' and are still infantry. And yes, Lords cannot be portaled individually.

Problems,
1/2. Monolith never sufferes deepstrike mishap unless off table or physically cannot be placed where it lands. No longer in the faq does it state irregularites from rulebook and codex. You are correct on the rest though. Some discussion has been raised because it states "when the warriors become available" so they have to be rolled for is my understanding. Oh and the turn it comes in it is only hit on a 6+ (counts as moving at cruising speed bc of deep strike)

3. spyder would get the cover save for half the squad being in cover if the scarab swarm is in cover, but the stealth rule is only conferred on the swarm not on the spyder.

4. I would be inclined to agree.

Destroyers are not classed as infantry they are true jetbikes. Scarabs are actual swarms, they just get a few outdated thingies because of the old codex. They are pretty much identical to current swarm rules, i.e. small target, and they move as jetbikes.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned, you can join a lord to a tomb spyder, which is contrary to most 40k joining rules. I emailed GW a while back to ask, because the tomb spyder unit does not always consist of a single unit, you may join an independant character to it. So if you join a foot lord to a tomb spyder, build two scarab bases, it s still T6 to shoot at with four models for your wound allocation(and fearless).

Monolith never sufferes deepstrike mishap unless off table or physically cannot be placed where it lands.

Unfortunately this is incorrect, as I posted above.

Maelstrom808 wrote:

Monolith never sufferes deepstrike mishap unless off table or physically cannot be placed where it lands.

Unfortunately this is incorrect, as I posted above.

Dude, I would love to see you get laughed out of a tournament for trying that.

Considering I would probably be the Necron player, and one who plays by the rules, I seriously doubt that would be a problem.

Wait, what is this 2. buisness about units coming out of the monolith portal?
The codex states that a unit coming out of the portal always counts as disembarking from a stationary transport. Shouldn't that allow for assaults/movement irregardless of the monolith's movement?

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but I can't find anything to the contrary in the FAQ.

Back on topic, does anyone have any experience with using 2 monoliths and one group of Spyders? Deepstriking the lith's somewhere midfield and then slingshoting things towards the enemy seems like a convenient way to get in range quickly, and the Spyders will provide a second wave of Wbb.

Maelstrom808 wrote:

Monolith never sufferes deepstrike mishap unless off table or physically cannot be placed where it lands.

Unfortunately this is incorrect, as I posted above.

Do you have a rules quote for this? The monolith entry says that it does not mishap, but instead that models are moved out of its way....not sure what rules justification you have for this being overridden, given that codex rulings supercede BRB general core rules.

I think the argument goes that the Monolith's rules say destroyed, not mishap, which only happens on 1 of the 3 mishap table results. Not how I'd play it, but some people might.

Irdiumstern wrote:I think the argument goes that the Monolith's rules say destroyed, not mishap, which only happens on 1 of the 3 mishap table results. Not how I'd play it, but some people might.

Exactly. The Deep Strike rules under the mono don't say a thing about mishaps, it simply says it can't be destroyed by landing on enemy units. Now the intention of the rule is clear, and with friendly games usually we go with RAI, however if you are planning on playing tournaments, you have to be prepared to play the strict RAW interpretation. The point of bringing it up is just so you know, building a tournament army around the idea that you can safely deepstrike monos "danger close" to opposing units is asking to get boned by a TO or ref.

themrsleepy wrote:
Problems,
1/2. Monolith never sufferes deepstrike mishap unless off table or physically cannot be placed where it lands. No longer in the faq does it state irregularites from rulebook and codex. You are correct on the rest though. Some discussion has been raised because it states "when the warriors become available" so they have to be rolled for is my understanding. Oh and the turn it comes in it is only hit on a 6+ (counts as moving at cruising speed bc of deep strike)

Destroyers are not classed as infantry they are true jetbikes. Scarabs are actual swarms, they just get a few outdated thingies because of the old codex. They are pretty much identical to current swarm rules, i.e. small target, and they move as jetbikes.

You can still deviate into terrain or offboard, is what I meant. When I said hit on a 4+, that's in contrast to previous editions where skimmers were hit on a 6+ always.

The FAQ clearly states that Wraiths and Swarms are infantry. The Destroyers are also infantry. They do not have the bike toughness bonus, and 'move as' is exactly that. You CAN hit Destroyers with Jaws.

kirsanth wrote:Incorrect. Half of a unit in cover grants the unit cover saves. The issue that can confuse is that MC(and vehicles) only count as in cover if they are 50% obscured. Since the swarm has no such restriction it can claim to be in cover and fulfill the 50% requirement for the entire unit.

I believe the question was: does the Spyder benefit from the Swarm's bonus to cover saves. I don't think so. I may have read the question wrong.

Irdiumstern wrote:Wait, what is this 2. buisness about units coming out of the monolith portal?
The codex states that a unit coming out of the portal always counts as disembarking from a stationary transport. Shouldn't that allow for assaults/movement irregardless of the monolith's movement?

That's odd. I thought I read it earlier today, but the current FAQ says both the Monolith and the portaled unit must have not proved previously in order for the unit to move after the portal happens. I'd swear there was a entry about assaulting out of the portal, but I can't find it now.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:

Monolith never sufferes deepstrike mishap unless off table or physically cannot be placed where it lands.

Unfortunately this is incorrect, as I posted above.

Do you have a rules quote for this? The monolith entry says that it does not mishap, but instead that models are moved out of its way....not sure what rules justification you have for this being overridden, given that codex rulings supercede BRB general core rules.

Wording/timing quibble. I believe there is a YMDC thread on this. I want to say the rule prevents destruction (which used to be automatic and the only result) when the current rules also includes other effects and is no longer called a Mishap.

The Grog wrote:

kirsanth wrote:Incorrect. Half of a unit in cover grants the unit cover saves. The issue that can confuse is that MC(and vehicles) only count as in cover if they are 50% obscured. Since the swarm has no such restriction it can claim to be in cover and fulfill the 50% requirement for the entire unit.

I believe the question was: does the Spyder benefit from the Swarm's bonus to cover saves. I don't think so. I may have read the question wrong.

Technically, the Swarm USR grants the Stealth USR. Stealth states that the unit's cover saves are improved by 1, not just the models. I think it's a pretty good argument for both the Spyder and the swarm having +1 to cover, as long as the Swarm is in cover.

The Grog wrote:

Irdiumstern wrote:Wait, what is this 2. buisness about units coming out of the monolith portal?
The codex states that a unit coming out of the portal always counts as disembarking from a stationary transport. Shouldn't that allow for assaults/movement irregardless of the monolith's movement?

That's odd. I thought I read it earlier today, but the current FAQ says both the Monolith and the portaled unit must have not proved previously in order for the unit to move after the portal happens. I'd swear there was a entry about assaulting out of the portal, but I can't find it now.

That's the thing. The way the codex is worded, I don't see any reason for the unit to be unable to move if the monolith already moved. Seeing as how the Faq doesn't list what happens if the monolith already moved, but the unit didn't . . . Well grey area of the Faq, but personally, I would think the unit coming out can move based on the codex wording.

+1 Irdiumstern ^^


Editing as my codex is old and I keep looking up one of the changes.
Sorry for adding less to the actual topic.

heh

I forgot stealth was a USR now. I'm not sure they have it, as the rule is named Small Target and the rulebook has the Codex trumps book comment in the USR section.

As for the Monolith question, the FAQ (page 2, first entry under the Monolith section) that BOTH units have to have not moved in order for the unit to move. You can still disembark within 2" of the portal, but get no additional movement. The original wording allowed it, but the first FAQ shut that down.

I don't know how this is supposed to work with large units that won't fit though.

According to army builder they have Small Target and Swarms. they should get the +1.

Turboboosting 2+ cover saves are pretty sweet.

The Grog wrote:I forgot stealth was a USR now. I'm not sure they have it, as the rule is named Small Target and the rulebook has the Codex trumps book comment in the USR section.

As for the Monolith question, the FAQ (page 2, first entry under the Monolith section) that BOTH units have to have not moved in order for the unit to move. You can still disembark within 2" of the portal, but get no additional movement. The original wording allowed it, but the first FAQ shut that down.

I don't know how this is supposed to work with large units that won't fit though.

The FAQ states that Scarabs are swarms, which come with stealth and vulnerable to blasts/templates USR's

Hmm, seems you are right. This seems like a blatant rule change to me, but whatever. Dang it
Edit: Wait, it says nothing about assault . . . So while the unit cannot move if the monolith did, for whatever reason, but it can assault . . . This might be fun

Well, if the unit is too large to fit, then you can't deploy it. However, the model only has to have its base within 2", not entirely inside 2". As far as I've seen, people are able to set 21 warriors in front of the portal, and like 5 destroyers. There's a couple of pictures of how to floating around
Edit: Actually, one of the links posted earlier shows you how to do it.

So, does this mean that (technically) Scarabs have both Stealth AND Small Target?

Yes, and it is not "technically". They certainly have both.

The Grog wrote:The FAQ clearly states that Wraiths and Swarms are infantry. The Destroyers are also infantry. They do not have the bike toughness bonus, and 'move as' is exactly that. You CAN hit Destroyers with Jaws.

No, destroyers and heavy D's are actual jetbikes and they DO have the jetbike toughness upgrade. They are, as the codex says, warriors (T4) fused to jetbike bodies (though I believe they say skimmer bodies) which is why destroyers are EXACTLY like warriors, stat wise, but T5. It even says "Jetbike" under unit type for them.

The monolith deepstrike lack of mishaps is based on the rules for mishap. What are the conditions that it misahaps? Runs into enemy models, monolith moves them. Goes off board, satisfied under my can't physically be placed, same for impassable terrain. Am I missing any there?

OK, so Dash you're no longer going to be seen as WAAC, just a cheat judging by all the Necron rules problems!

I'd prefer to say Necron enlightener. I mean what is battle than adjusting convention to conform to strategy of what you are facing. Teaching someone the rules don't apply as they think they do is fun!

Kevin949 wrote:

The Grog wrote:The FAQ clearly states that Wraiths and Swarms are infantry. The Destroyers are also infantry. They do not have the bike toughness bonus, and 'move as' is exactly that. You CAN hit Destroyers with Jaws.

No, destroyers and heavy D's are actual jetbikes and they DO have the jetbike toughness upgrade. They are, as the codex says, warriors (T4) fused to jetbike bodies (though I believe they say skimmer bodies) which is why destroyers are EXACTLY like warriors, stat wise, but T5. It even says "Jetbike" under unit type for them.

Quote:
"Jetbike: Destroyers count as Jetbikes for movement purposes. They may also move and fire their Gauss Cannons."

No T4(5). Looks like infantry to me.

Where is this Unit Type: Jetbike? It's not in my codex.

If they have Stealth and Small Target, then then are +2 to cover saves?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

themrsleepy wrote:The monolith deepstrike lack of mishaps is based on the rules for mishap. What are the conditions that it misahaps? Runs into enemy models, monolith moves them. Goes off board, satisfied under my can't physically be placed, same for impassable terrain. Am I missing any there?

Not quite. The rule says if the Monolith would 'be destroyed' then it moves models. 'Destroyed' one of three results.

The Grog wrote:
If they have Stealth and Small Target, then then are +2 to cover saves?

That would be pushing it, I think. I'd just go with the +1, but I guess RAW would give you +2, wouldn't it?

I disagree on the Monolith Deep Striking thing. If it can't be placed due to enemy models, you move them out of the way.

Hmmm... I ll check my codex when I get a chance, and the faq, I've got a basis I ll find it.

The FAQ i checked made points of Wraiths and Scarabs being infantry as well despite the 'move as jetbike' tags. My codex doesn't specify, nor do I know of a list stating what models are classed as what for the Necrons elsewhere. So I extended the same reasoning for Destroyers since their rule also says 'move as' and have an entry about moving and shooting heavy weapons, which bikes shouldn't need.

I suppose it's time for a YMDC thread. I tried looking for the Monoltih & deep strike one I remember reading, but I can't find it.

Yep, I'm incredibly confused now.

*EDIT*

I got my Necrons today!

I now have:

2x Monoliths
5x Wraiths
10x Destroyers
60x Warriors
10x Immortals
3x Tomb Spyders
20x Scarabs
8x Flayed Ones
1x Destroyer Lord
2x Necron Lords
-------------------------
I still need to acquire 1x Monolith, 4x Wraiths, 6x Tomb Spyders, and to convert a bunch of Warriors into Immortals.