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Russ Mandarin wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Russ Mandarin wrote:

Omegus wrote:Do I need to bust out the quote where Leman Russ himself is frothing at the mouth, claiming that runepriests draw their power from the "cycle of life and death of Fenris" or whatever such nonsense, rather than channeling the Warp? Or should we look to the Index Astartes again?

Nah, that would take too much effort when it's been done at least 50 times before and can be found in any number of threads about the Space Wolves/Nikea. So I'm just going to say, Oakenshield, you are 100% wrong.

Its been said before many times but you know the same ilk come out every now and then parroting the same wrong argument ad nauseum. We could take a look at the codex too they even state they don't really know how to define what Rune Priests do since it isn't touching the warp like the standard Librarian.

And? They still persecuted the Thousand Sons for their use of psychic powers despite using the warp themselves. A Rune Priest, and actual Librarian of the Space Wolves, spoke out against psychic powers and he used them himself. Of course, this isn't the only reason they're massive hypocrites. Wulfen, anyone? They were perfectly fine using their own mutated individuals against the Thousand Sons, a Legion they hated because they had their own defect.

You're still wrong about the rune priests using the warp its even more imperative that you notice how the Rune Priests weren't shut down after the Council of Nikaea? They are not standard librarians under Magnus who use sorcery and delve into the warp they are mystical shamans that follow a tradition that empowers them through the cycle of life and death on Fenris.

No, I'm not. Have you read A Thousand Sons? Yeah, Ahriman puts into perspective when he has a conversation with a Space Wolf Rune Priest. They both use the Warp. The Thousand Sons were in the wrong, using sorcery, but the Space Wolves did, and still do, use similar ritual processes based on the primitive pagan and norse-esque beliefs of the people of Fenris, from which they all originate. Essentially, they hold religious beliefs that are heretical in the Imperium, and still use the Warp to fuel their rituals. They aren't that far from the Thousand Sons.

The Thousand sons through their primarch made a pact with chaos to get over their defect but in the end did not. Wulfen are a defect that the Space Wolves carry with them and have not tried to excise in any way. Hell almost the entire 13th company is made up of people who have the Mark of the Wulfen. In the end keeping their defect worked out for them since its more of a defense mechanism against chaos while the Thousand sons got pushed into chaos from the jump because of their defect. I see no hypocritical behavior here

Then you're in denial. Magnus, thanks to his arrogance, made pacts independently of the Thousand Sons and outside of his son's knowledge, to cure their genetic defect. It worked, for a time, but Tzeentch is a fickle creature to deal with, and the deal ended. The Space Wolves saw a Thousand Sons mutated, and that deserves punishment. It's something along the lines of "You have a fault in your geneseed that causes some to turn into ravaging monsters! You deserve punishment! I know, we'll use our own slavering mutant hulks (that are absolutely ok for us to have) to attack you!" Hypocrisy.

You are sounding more and more like Thousand Sons apologist .
Ahriman doesn't put anything in perspective all he offers up is his wrong biased perspective on something that is clearly apart from what he does. His opinion isn't validated by anything in A thousand sons or any previous fluff or even in their codex either so all this amounts to is you fussing about a what if scenario.

You keep saying Rune Priests use Sorcery, but their mystical practices certainly don't involve the sacrifice of psycher's to empower their own or even go so far as to contact deamons.

Also gene seed flaw argument is more along the lines "you have a flaw in your gene-seed that is turning you to chaos you are a evil, I'm going to attack you now with our own chaos resistant gene flawed Wulfen".

Russ Mandarin wrote:You are sounding more and more like Thousand Sons apologist .
Ahriman doesn't put anything in perspective all he offers up is his wrong biased perspective on something that is clearly apart from what he does. His opinion isn't validated by anything in A thousand sons or any previous fluff or even in their codex either so all this amounts to is you fussing about a what if scenario.

Ahriman isn't the only character that puts it into perspective. Magnus does, with a little help from Russ. There's nothing to contradict what happens in the book. To be an apologist I would have had to make excuses, no excuses were given, so you're wrong.

You keep saying Rune Priests use Sorcery, but their mystical practices certainly don't involve the sacrifice of psycher's to empower their own or even go so far as to contact deamons.

I don't "keep saying" that. It's the first time I've ever said it, so you're trying too hard to act smart. I never said it involves any of those practices, I said the Thousand Sons stepped over the line, but that the Space Wolves' use of ritual wasn't that different, not that they were the same.

Also gene seed flaw argument is more along the lines "you have a flaw in your gene-seed that is turning you to chaos you are a evil, I'm going to attack you now with our own chaos resistant gene flawed Wulfen".

Take all this crap about 'Chaos' out. Neither side had any knowledge of Chaos or how it could affect the Astartes. So it's really "you have a flaw in your gene-seed, that's bad. I'm going to attack you with our gene flawed Wulfen, but that's ok".

Grey Knights. An army which exists solely to be better than everyone else at everything. If they told me some thirteen year-old came up with them, they'd make more sense. They'd win a poetry competition if they entered one.

Space Wolves. Murder-make threadcut wyrd murder-make hellwinter threadcut!

Russ Mandarin wrote: Wulfen are a defect that the Space Wolves carry with them and have not tried to excise in any way. Hell almost the entire 13th company is made up of people who have the Mark of the Wulfen. In the end keeping their defect worked out for them since its more of a defense mechanism against chaos while the Thousand sons got pushed into chaos from the jump because of their defect. I see no hypocritical behavior here

It's not just that. If the SW got rid of the defect, they would also lose the advantages, therefore just becoming grey Ultramarines.

Seaward wrote:Grey Knights. An army which exists solely to be better than everyone else at everything. If they told me some thirteen year-old came up with them, they'd make more sense. They'd win a poetry competition if they entered one.

Space Wolves. Murder-make threadcut wyrd murder-make hellwinter threadcut!

I dont play them, so dont judge me on that.
But they are not overpowered evil forces are saying they are, while they arent.
Now, back to the Warp, daemon scum!

Russ Mandarin wrote:You keep saying Rune Priests use Sorcery, but their mystical practices certainly don't involve the sacrifice of psycher's to empower their own or even go so far as to contact deamons.

Sacrificing psykers to empower something is exactly what the Astronomicon and the Golden Throne do.

I think you should go have a talk with a local member of the Ecclesiarchy so he can explain the error of your ways. *cough*Heretic!*cough*

Psychic powers = channeling warp. Period.

Trying to argue otherwise is akin to saying the sun is green and the weather in Houston is mild and temperate. You can do it, just don't be surprised when people look at you like a crazy person.

The Wolves use various shamanist rituals and practices that allow them to channel the Warp in specific ways. Where their resistance to the corrupting effects of the Warp comes from is unclear, whether it part of the Canix Helix, their penchant for adorning themselves with warding signs and talismans, or even just the regimented and structured way they use their powers (much like GK, for example).

The latter part I think is the big difference that separates the Rune Priest tradition and the Librarius department as imagined by Magnus. The Librarius was all about exploration and innovation, ever pushing humanity's psychic acumen forward, with no gates bared or lines uncrossed. The Rune Priests, on the other hand, utilize the same exact rituals and ceremonies to summon the exact same powers as they have for thousands of years. Any deviation from this norm is seen as "evil", "maleficarum", or "Sky Magic", and is responded to with fear and violence (see Prospero Burns where the various tribes turn on another and slaughter every man, woman, and child on suspicion of "maleficarum"). Prospero Burns also shows us that the Wolves' Astartes program doesn't do much to educate or dispel these superstitions, as they hold much the same beliefs even after becoming Space Marines and learning of the Imperium.

So in light of this, it's not surprising the Space Wolves were so hostile towards the Thousand Sons. Why else would they attack the Sons just because the latter didn't want to burn down a library (and this was long before Nikea or any orders from the Emperor or Horus)? Why else would they automatically assume Hauser was Magnus' spy, and even that was revealed to not be the case, still act as if they were right all along?

I don't know if it is so much hypocrisy (although there is plenty of willful ignorance going around), as just plain ol'-fashioned bigotry. "They are different than us, therefore we should kill them."

Brother Wolves.

Seaward wrote:Grey Knights. An army which exists solely to be better than everyone else at everything. If they told me some thirteen year-old came up with them, they'd make more sense. They'd win a poetry competition if they entered one.

Grey Knights have a reason for being better than everyone else, they don't just try to be better, their made better so they can defend the imperium from daemons/chaos in general...

It's also speculated they came from the emperors geneseed, which is why their better.

So I still don't know why people hate the Knights...but oh well

bombboy1252 wrote:

So I still don't know why people hate the Knights...but oh well

I just told you why. Having no defining characteristics beyond, "We're more awesome than everybody else!" is incredibly bland.

What always cracks me up is that the GK only have a very low number of "those guys that guard this room over there" (sorry i really don't know what they are called in english :( ).
So after the last game, they have a problem (because i got shot to pieces from long distance xD). Wonder how they fill their ranks so fast all the time :O xD

Purifiers? I don't know how they fill their ranks so quickly either. Something tells me Matt Ward has no idea how long it would take to process one million initiates, let alone find one supposedly as rare as a purifier. Perhaps the GKs just drop them all into a whole in one go and let them fight it out.

IMHO the worst Chapter is the Soul Drinkers. Destroying the Imperium one planet at a time - FOR THE EMPEROR!

(I realize I am probably exaggerating that, but I can't help it given how the novels are written, esp in contrast to so much of Ben Counter's other work.)

Whilst I can appreciate how easily a conversation can, does and should wind in odd and perhaps unanticipated ways, it would be best if we leave the arguments over the wolves/1k sons and psychic what nots out of this thread.

Feel free to start a new one over that though, throw in a link to here so people can read up and we're good.

Well I'm a huge fan of the Space Vikings and Space Romans... but I'm a history guy (by trade) so I like the fluff elements of the SW and UM.

To me its the Flesh Tearers and Blood Drinkers that take the cake. The BA a little too vampiric for me, but the FT and BD are just wack jobs and if the timeline ever marches forward, its just a matter of time before a SW, Sally, Smurf, IF, or some other "noble" Chapter sees these guys as one whisper short of Khorne and opens up on them

Seaward wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:

So I still don't know why people hate the Knights...but oh well

I just told you why. Having no defining characteristics beyond, "We're more awesome than everybody else!" is incredibly bland.

That isnt what they are. Go and get Ultramarine hate, bro. Then you can use that argument.

Omegus wrote:Psychic powers = channeling warp. Period.

Trying to argue otherwise is akin to saying the sun is green and the weather in Houston is mild and temperate. You can do it, just don't be surprised when people look at you like a crazy person.

The Wolves use various shamanist rituals and practices that allow them to channel the Warp in specific ways. Where their resistance to the corrupting effects of the Warp comes from is unclear, whether it part of the Canix Helix, their penchant for adorning themselves with warding signs and talismans, or even just the regimented and structured way they use their powers (much like GK, for example).

The latter part I think is the big difference that separates the Rune Priest tradition and the Librarius department as imagined by Magnus. The Librarius was all about exploration and innovation, ever pushing humanity's psychic acumen forward, with no gates bared or lines uncrossed. The Rune Priests, on the other hand, utilize the same exact rituals and ceremonies to summon the exact same powers as they have for thousands of years. Any deviation from this norm is seen as "evil", "maleficarum", or "Sky Magic", and is responded to with fear and violence (see Prospero Burns where the various tribes turn on another and slaughter every man, woman, and child on suspicion of "maleficarum"). Prospero Burns also shows us that the Wolves' Astartes program doesn't do much to educate or dispel these superstitions, as they hold much the same beliefs even after becoming Space Marines and learning of the Imperium.

So in light of this, it's not surprising the Space Wolves were so hostile towards the Thousand Sons. Why else would they attack the Sons just because the latter didn't want to burn down a library (and this was long before Nikea or any orders from the Emperor or Horus)? Why else would they automatically assume Hauser was Magnus' spy, and even that was revealed to not be the case, still act as if they were right all along?

I don't know if it is so much hypocrisy (although there is plenty of willful ignorance going around), as just plain ol'-fashioned bigotry. "They are different than us, therefore we should kill them."

Surely there's a simple solution here. If Rune Priests can suffer Perils of the Warp, they must be channeling the powers of the Warp in order to be attacked by it. If they don't then they probably aren't using warp-based powers. I don't know if they can take Perils though...

I don't really like to use rules to resolve fluff disputes, but since you mentioned it, Rune Priests are subject to Perils and are no less susceptible to them than any other psyker.

Anyway, this topic has been done to death and I'm stepping out. There is an endless stream of bright-eyed and bushy-tailed youngsters fighting tooth and nail to hold on to their Mary Sue Werewolves in Space, and I've grown weary of crushing their misconceptions time and time again.