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DakkaDakka wrote:

I don't know which I dislike the most. I dislike the vampire-marine idea, but don't know the fluff well enough to be overly critical. Not a fan of their models or those of the SW all that much, but don't know the SW fluff well enough to be all that cranky about them.

Hmm...

I play a DA codex army, but I have to agree on the "big secret" criticism, and how it could have been something much more cool.

I actually LIKE the idea of the Blood Ravens being Alpha Legion who've been wiped or whatever, so they're out.

The Ultrasmurfs are somewhat annoying in the double meaning of the name and how frequently they're seen, but I like a lot of the veteran schemes.

I guess that would bring me to the Astral Claws - d-bags extraordinaire led by a nut-job megalomaniac. Yep, least favorite chapter is the Astral Claws.

Carcharadons.

Because the "space sharks" would just have knife-fight dance-offs with their old nemesis the "space jets" for the right to live in 'Merica.

Space wolves. For the whole wolf-everything-of-wolfiness stuff.
Blood Angels. For the whole blood-blood-bloodywell-blood stuff.

I've been playing for 24 years and never liked any of those three.

Just saying: I like the space wolves. So according to some posts in here now im a hypocrit and a superiority complex plagued d-bag?
Err...well i've been called worse xD

I mean i do know that they use the warp (even though they say they don't) and that some descriptions are over the top etcetc..but seriously, which chapter is really not being described as "the best" in their codex?

Everyone is entitled to their oppinion, so i don't want to add to this flamefest. But i think you can't just take everything with a grain of salt (i hope thats the right expression O.o).
I mean, in one Codex, *this army* is totally unstopapble, aware of everything and never outmanouvred, in the next codex i read they get baited into an ambush and utterly destroyed by a smaller force of *that army*.

I do want to add though, that the books do describe the pain is causes Russ to have to bring his own brother to justice, and i think the ending of Prospero burns, when everything is seen in yet another light, makes all that even more tragic.
Every Chapter can be summarised into a neat one liner, or you can look closer and see all the "pretty unique snowflakes" that might make the chapter interesting for you (an example that doesn't concern SW would be the Salamanders. They are not all carebears and nice guys, but if you'ld have to summarise them in a short sentence, you'ld say "the carebear chapter"). If not, go look at the next one

For me, the books did put the SW in a new light. It dampened the..eh..way i feel about them abit, but it didn't ruin them for me, it just changed them. Then sons i didn't like before the books for example, now i do.
The Dark Doucheba..Angels for example i didn't like before the books, and i like them even less now that i read through the HH xD But that's just my oppinion ^^d

Worst chapter? Not Ultramarines, not that big hate. Not Blood Angels, they are cool. Not GK, they are cool. Not Adeptus Custodes, they arent marines. Id go with... Imperial Fists. Yellow marines. Come on man. slowed

I notice that everyone who has tried to defend the Space Wolves has had unbelievably awful grammar and spelling abilities. Call me a grammar Nazi, but come on.

Still Spess Wulvs!

Looking at those flags, I doubt they speak English as a first language.

My least favorite Chapter would be the Blood Angels. Only thing I like about them are the Furioso dreads, and baals. I like baals.



Edit: Damn spell checker, being all American.

Actually the guy is from the UK . . . but all the same ya' know.


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I personally hate . . . Space Wolves, only b/c they have no disadvantages, and all the advantages and more of than of space marines.

Did I mention how stupid it is they can easily combine their two most OP units in an army(TWC & Long Fangs).

At least other armies give up something and can only go one way or the other like Black Templars with their Beastly Terminator & Assault Terminator Squads.

The Flesh Tearers. Because nothing ruins your day more than seeing the force that came to save your planet gutting you and your family.

Where does it ever say that wolf priests refuse to admit that their powers are drawn from the warp? I haven't read A Thousand Sons but in Prospero Burns it is explained that Rune Priests are psychers with self imposed limits to exploration of their powers, but much of what the Thousand Sons dabbled in constituted sorcery. Sorcery being described as "shortcuts" to powers of the warp without the necessary psionic ability.

Asherian Command wrote:

Durza wrote:Surely the Hawk Lords should be destroyed for wearing the original colours of one of the Traitor Legions?

So your calling the black templars heretics? anyone who wears the colors of a now heretical group? Are you insane?
That would mean the entire blood angels chapter would be screwed because they wear red.

He said the ORIGINAL colors. The Emperor's children originally had purple armor (World Eaters were white and blue).

On the other hand, in the absence of anyone who has lived for more than 10,000 years (or a still working Nikon Coolpix) no-one would know the original colours of a legion that was excommunicated and struck from the Imperial record (as all of the traitor legions were).

Blood Angels and Grey Knights. I know it's been done a million times, and it sounds like a bandwagon, but....the fluff in the two Codexes was just so poorly written it killed them for me. And I was a huge GK fan before.

Those 2 aside, my least favourite are probably Iron Hands. In the stuff i;ve read, they just seem....really unintelligent.

English Assassin wrote:Yes, but the Rainbow Warriors don't have extra HQs, undercosted units and special snowflake rune magic.

You know just completely ignore the main point of OP,
Any ways I would probaly personally say Flesh tearers of the chapter with gabriel seth, just because they are completey fethed in spirit and sanity to the point of killing good guys, were at least Rainbow marine can think properly(or at least when it dosnt come to colour).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Squigsquasher wrote:I notice that everyone who has tried to defend the Space Wolves has had unbelievably awful grammar and spelling abilities. Call me a grammar Nazi, but come on.

Still Spess Wulvs!

Meh

Grey elder wrote:

English Assassin wrote:Yes, but the Rainbow Warriors don't have extra HQs, undercosted units and special snowflake rune magic.

You know just completely ignore the main point of OP,
Any ways I would probaly personally say Flesh tearers of the chapter with gabriel seth, just because they are completey fethed in spirit and sanity to the point of killing good guys, were at least Rainbow marine can think properly(or at least when it dosnt come to colour).

Yay! Lets reply to month and a half old posts because we're butt hurt over someone not liking our favorite chapter! Don't worry, your a super special snowflake too.

Pacific wrote:You need to read A Thousand Sons mate...

The Rune Priests may use different forms of ritual and have a different mindset in terms of what they are doing, but the powers they produce are still coming from the same place.

Exactly. Rune Priests basically use the Warp, but in a slightly different way and because it looks slightly different they are convinced it isn't the Warp.

Molten Butter wrote:The Flesh Tearers. Because nothing ruins your day more than seeing the force that came to save your planet gutting you and your family.

Guess you never saw a Angry Marine or Knight of Blood.

From Prospero Burns, for those who continue to post that Rune Priests don't understand their powers.

"Psionics,’ Aun Helwintr echoed, smiling. He used his real voice.
" ‘I had heard that some of the Legions actually had psyker contingents,’ said Hawser.
‘Most of them have,’ replied Helwintr.
‘But the occurrence is so very rare,’ Hawser said. ‘The mutation is a–’
‘The psyker mutation is a priceless asset to our species,’ said Helwintr. ‘Without it, we would be condemned to captivity on Terra. The Great Houses of the Navigators allow us to expand our reach. The astrotelepaths allow us to communicate over the gulfs. But caution must always be exercised. Control."

iproxtaco wrote:

Grey elder wrote:

English Assassin wrote:Yes, but the Rainbow Warriors don't have extra HQs, undercosted units and special snowflake rune magic.

You know just completely ignore the main point of OP,
Any ways I would probaly personally say Flesh tearers of the chapter with gabriel seth, just because they are completey fethed in spirit and sanity to the point of killing good guys, were at least Rainbow marine can think properly(or at least when it dosnt come to colour).

Yay! Lets reply to month and a half old posts because we're butt hurt over someone not liking our favorite chapter! Don't worry, your a super special snowflake too.

I sense some hostility in those words taco......Lets stay civil...

Russ Mandarin wrote:

Squigsquasher wrote:Rss Mandarin, you need to read A Thousand Sons. Just read the bit on Nikea. Everything said against the Space Wolves will be utterly vindicated.

Iv'e already read it and then to be fair you would need to also read Prospero Burns too just to get the whole picture but nope I can tell you are happy with the mad hypocritical Space Idiots that the Thousand Sons painted them as.

Prospero Burns honestly did nothing to change my opinion of them. It just confirmed that their Primarch is as much as an ass as the rest of them, and that they have an extremely high opinion of themselves. "Emperor's Executioners"? Really? That's why they needed the full support of the Custodes and Sisters of Silence to barely take on the smallest Legion? What if they were sent against the Ultramarines, or Word Bearers, or any other Legion that outnumbered the drunk werewolves 20x1?

Bah. This thread has a clear "winner".

Oakenshield wrote:From Prospero Burns, for those who continue to post that Rune Priests don't understand their powers.

"Psionics,’ Aun Helwintr echoed, smiling. He used his real voice.
" ‘I had heard that some of the Legions actually had psyker contingents,’ said Hawser.
‘Most of them have,’ replied Helwintr.
‘But the occurrence is so very rare,’ Hawser said. ‘The mutation is a–’
‘The psyker mutation is a priceless asset to our species,’ said Helwintr. ‘Without it, we would be condemned to captivity on Terra. The Great Houses of the Navigators allow us to expand our reach. The astrotelepaths allow us to communicate over the gulfs. But caution must always be exercised. Control."

That confirms almost nothing, only that they know what the psyker mutation is.

iproxtaco wrote:

Oakenshield wrote:From Prospero Burns, for those who continue to post that Rune Priests don't understand their powers.

"Psionics,’ Aun Helwintr echoed, smiling. He used his real voice.
" ‘I had heard that some of the Legions actually had psyker contingents,’ said Hawser.
‘Most of them have,’ replied Helwintr.
‘But the occurrence is so very rare,’ Hawser said. ‘The mutation is a–’
‘The psyker mutation is a priceless asset to our species,’ said Helwintr. ‘Without it, we would be condemned to captivity on Terra. The Great Houses of the Navigators allow us to expand our reach. The astrotelepaths allow us to communicate over the gulfs. But caution must always be exercised. Control."

That confirms almost nothing, only that they know what the psyker mutation is.

It confirms that Space Wolves understand that Rune Priests are in fact psykers. It directly nullifies arguments like this one.

Phiasco II wrote:Space Wolfs. Definitely Space Wolfs. Think about the council of Nakea.

Space Wolf Rune Priest (psyker): PSYKERS ARE BAD!
Mangus: Wait, you are a psyker, right?
Space Wolf Rune Priest: NO! I am a rune priest!. My power comes from the natural changes of Fenris! PSYKERS ARE BAD!
Mangus: No, your power comes from the warp-
Space Wolf Rune Priest: NO NO NO, PSYKERS ARE BAD. DIE, DIE DIE! WHY ISN'T THIS LIGHTNING I'M THROWING AT YOU KILLING YOU? DIE DIE DIE!
Mangus: -sigh- Ima go now

I'm perfectly fine with someone not liking my army because they're undercosted, or because they're space vikings or because their werewolves or whatever reason. However, it's an invalid argument to say that they take a hypocritical attitude towards psykers.

Well, after reading Thousand sons and Prospero burns i really had the feelign they think they are not using the warp.
I mean, Aun Hellwintr might think different because he recognised it (just like there are ultramarines that dont strictly follow the codex, Salamanders who don't care about "small people" etcetc). But the way Wyrdmake despises Ahriman and the way he talks at the council of nikea kinda sounded like he thought hes not using the warp.
There are 2 or 3 references to "using the power of the world forge" iirc. So to me it sounds like they think they don't use the warp.

Space Wolves or Ultramaryannes with their primarch Rowboat Girlyman. Mary-Sue Calgar is close second.

iDevour wrote:Well, after reading Thousand sons and Prospero burns i really had the feelign they think they are not using the warp.
I mean, Aun Hellwintr might think different because he recognised it (just like there are ultramarines that dont strictly follow the codex, Salamanders who don't care about "small people" etcetc). But the way Wyrdmake despises Ahriman and the way he talks at the council of nikea kinda sounded like he thought hes not using the warp.
There are 2 or 3 references to "using the power of the world forge" iirc. So to me it sounds like they think they don't use the warp.

Since Macneil and Abnett do such a good job of collaborating with each other I feel like the two books are supposed to show two sides of the same coin, each book aggrandizing the chapter it features while making the other seem at fault.

As for the power of the world forge part that must only be in A Thousand Sons. One of my qualms with Prospero Burns is that the pesudo-viking talk with all the red snow, cut threads and etc. The Wolves still refer to space as upland even though they fully understand it is not the heaven they believed in during their former lives. The world forge thing could be another such remnant. I admit I really need to read A Thousand Sons to understand Macniel's portrayal.

Another complaint is that Abnett portrays them as not allowing written word. Oral tradition is an effective way of maintaining a history and a society but not when you need to educate your men on such technically complex ideas as running giant space ships or maintaining plasma weapons.

Do I need to bust out the quote where Leman Russ himself is frothing at the mouth, claiming that runepriests draw their power from the "cycle of life and death of Fenris" or whatever such nonsense, rather than channeling the Warp? Or should we look to the Index Astartes again?

Nah, that would take too much effort when it's been done at least 50 times before and can be found in any number of threads about the Space Wolves/Nikea. So I'm just going to say, Oakenshield, you are 100% wrong.

CELEBRANTS

Omegus wrote:Do I need to bust out the quote where Leman Russ himself is frothing at the mouth, claiming that runepriests draw their power from the "cycle of life and death of Fenris" or whatever such nonsense, rather than channeling the Warp? Or should we look to the Index Astartes again?

Nah, that would take too much effort when it's been done at least 50 times before and can be found in any number of threads about the Space Wolves/Nikea. So I'm just going to say, Oakenshield, you are 100% wrong.

Its been said before many times but you know the same ilk come out every now and then parroting the same wrong argument ad nauseum. We could take a look at the codex too they even state they don't really know how to define what Rune Priests do since it isn't touching the warp like the standard Librarian.

Russ Mandarin wrote:

Omegus wrote:Do I need to bust out the quote where Leman Russ himself is frothing at the mouth, claiming that runepriests draw their power from the "cycle of life and death of Fenris" or whatever such nonsense, rather than channeling the Warp? Or should we look to the Index Astartes again?

Nah, that would take too much effort when it's been done at least 50 times before and can be found in any number of threads about the Space Wolves/Nikea. So I'm just going to say, Oakenshield, you are 100% wrong.

Its been said before many times but you know the same ilk come out every now and then parroting the same wrong argument ad nauseum. We could take a look at the codex too they even state they don't really know how to define what Rune Priests do since it isn't touching the warp like the standard Librarian.

And? They still persecuted the Thousand Sons for their use of psychic powers despite using the warp themselves. A Rune Priest, and actual Librarian of the Space Wolves, spoke out against psychic powers and he used them himself. Of course, this isn't the only reason they're massive hypocrites. Wulfen, anyone? They were perfectly fine using their own mutated individuals against the Thousand Sons, a Legion they hated because they had their own defect.

iproxtaco wrote:

Russ Mandarin wrote:

Omegus wrote:Do I need to bust out the quote where Leman Russ himself is frothing at the mouth, claiming that runepriests draw their power from the "cycle of life and death of Fenris" or whatever such nonsense, rather than channeling the Warp? Or should we look to the Index Astartes again?

Nah, that would take too much effort when it's been done at least 50 times before and can be found in any number of threads about the Space Wolves/Nikea. So I'm just going to say, Oakenshield, you are 100% wrong.

Its been said before many times but you know the same ilk come out every now and then parroting the same wrong argument ad nauseum. We could take a look at the codex too they even state they don't really know how to define what Rune Priests do since it isn't touching the warp like the standard Librarian.

And? They still persecuted the Thousand Sons for their use of psychic powers despite using the warp themselves. A Rune Priest, and actual Librarian of the Space Wolves, spoke out against psychic powers and he used them himself. Of course, this isn't the only reason they're massive hypocrites. Wulfen, anyone? They were perfectly fine using their own mutated individuals against the Thousand Sons, a Legion they hated because they had their own defect.

You're still wrong about the rune priests using the warp its even more imperative that you notice how the Rune Priests weren't shut down after the Council of Nikaea? They are not standard librarians under Magnus who use sorcery and delve into the warp they are mystical shamans that follow a tradition that empowers them through the cycle of life and death on Fenris.

The Thousand sons through their primarch made a pact with chaos to get over their defect but in the end did not. Wulfen are a defect that the Space Wolves carry with them and have not tried to excise in any way. Hell almost the entire 13th company is made up of people who have the Mark of the Wulfen. In the end keeping their defect worked out for them since its more of a defense mechanism against chaos while the Thousand sons got pushed into chaos from the jump because of their defect. I see no hypocritical behavior here