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Kairos wrote:

odorofdeath wrote:If your that desperate for new Chaos stuff, then just use JustDave's Chaos fandex. It'll probably end up being better than the new codex anyway.

No man. I have read Just Dave's book several times. It is better than the current book, but the best build still centers around dual lash + obliterators.

...I am so sick of the current book, I have honestly contemplated setting it on fire on more than 1 occassion.

His codex is really just the "status quo plus" it still suffers from the conceptual limitations of the current book. While its creative in some ways, its lacking in other more meaningful ways... Just my opinion.

As you say current approach is just too lacking. It doesn't make sense conceptually, it doesn't represent what it says it does, and its has weak rules. The book is non-distinct where more than half the units are cookie cuttered from Space Marines or are just plain whimpier for no real reason. With the way a number of units are in this Chaos Codex, it's motto should be: "I sold my soul to the Ruinous powers and all I got was this T-shirt."

timetowaste85 wrote:

Kairos wrote:

odorofdeath wrote:If your that desperate for new Chaos stuff, then just use JustDave's Chaos fandex. It'll probably end up being better than the new codex anyway.

No man. I have read Just Dave's book several times. It is better than the current book, but the best build still centers around dual lash + obliterators. You can do other things
in it like take Chosen and Possessed as troops, and he made several units usefull again. However, it is not enough or fresh enough. Chaos needs to have things completely
redone, and needs to be able to take devastating assault armies that can hang with Grey Knights.

I am so sick of the current book, I have honestly contemplated setting it on fire on more than 1 occassion.

I hear the next chaos book will have fairies and princesses in it. Is that enough of a redo for you?
But seriously, it is just a game. Ghost's rumors were false, but it's not THAT big a deal. It's obnoxious, but the anger you're displaying is a bit much.

It is a big deal for me. It is not funny to deceive the entire Chaos fanbase, and send all of the major 40K websites on a wild goose chase.
He is just hiding in his mommies basement now, and I bet he has even created new dummy accounts to post under.

Kairos wrote:

wowsmash wrote:I have a question? I've only been in the hobby since shortly before the Necron release. I'm building orks. My question is do we normally get leaks like the necrons were we will see pictures or was that an anomaly. I enjoyed that thread so much that I went and bought the codex just to read it.

Only if people manage to secretely obtain pictures. GW is really tight lipped about release schedules, which is completely anathema to solid marketing practices. They should be teasing gamers with new releases about 3 months in advance to drum up interest. Their marketing department is simply not doing their job. It is like their customers are in a black hole concerning new releases, until they suddenly show up in White Dwarf or via the official e-mail newsletter.

There are several theories about this, but one of them involves the new Hobbit movie. GW has a strict NDA with the movie studio, and they have evidently adopted that policy over their other ranges as well.

As much as every seems to be an expert in Marketing, few at least acknowledge the reality of the situation. GW is under contract with New Line Cinema, and part of that contract is that they cannot preview new releases before a certain point. I won't pretend to know all the ins and outs of that arrangement, but from my understanding that's exactly the reason we aren't getting previews of new models releases until right before pre-sale.

You don't have to agree with it, or like it, but no amount of backlash is going to make them break a multi-million dollar contract with a major movie studio. We've waited like 5 years, what's another few months?

As above.

From chatting at GD and since, they have had to demonstrate an ability to control leaks before the Hobbit release. In addition, given the rather hefty contract in place, they cant afford leaks during the Hobbit release, so have chosen to get it right (lock down what they know they leak, then look for new leaks, lock them down, etc) beforehand.

Yes it sucks, however the complete cash cow that was LotR makes it understandable.

Additionally previewing models is not the same as the most common fallacious example of movie trailers. You dont stop going to the cinema now because of a movie coming out in 3 months time, you may stop buying any models now if you think a new army will be released in 3 months time. Release news in the wrong way and you bust the hobby spiral, costing you more than if you;d kept schtum.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yes it sucks, however the complete cash cow that was LotR makes it understandable.

I don't really mind LotR. I don't play it, but the models are nice. Personally, I cannot see how it is a cash cow for GW. Do large swaths of people play LotR, more so than entire 40k/FB armies?

I honestly don't think so?

Anyone have any perspectives, experience, or opinions otherwise?

What it boils down to is that for the time LotR was at its peak, you had 100% of those who were buying stuff for that game as "beginners"... and simply GW's marketing is based around getting someone to start the hobby and buy all these things from GW.

GW's obsession with LotR is several things... to them it is the intersection of their "marketing" and the market... that gave them the false impression how they market a product works. It represented to GW and to shareholders that GW could have major profitability in non-Warhammer or warhammer derivative product line. It push the threshold of shareholder expectations and made them realize GW could be more profitable than they realized.

The problem is its all based on a fad, and fleeting fandom. The LotR has not had the sort of sustainable fanatical following of these other games, because translation of fan of the movie doesn't immidiately translate to being as fanatical about a game. The game was succesful from the stand point that it sold units, but failed in retention. For a couple years their profits reflected that it was about as profitable as having three core games.

It was a bubble, it burst and GW has struggled to maintain that level of revenue performance and shareholder faith. To maintain that level of revenue they've forced themselves to raise margins and sustain themselves on lower volumes. Its a multi-billion dollar company with $200M a year revenue but only a profit of $12M

[quote=Cadaver.

There are several theories about this, but one of them involves the new Hobbit movie. GW has a strict NDA with the movie studio, and they have evidently adopted that policy over their other ranges as well.

Fun fact: At my local GW, LotR has been substantially more popular than WHFB ever since I started paying attention to anything but 40k.

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:Fun fact: At my local GW, LotR has been substantially more popular than WHFB ever since I started paying attention to anything but 40k.

Other Fun Fact: Anecdotal evidence isn't.

Kairos wrote:

timetowaste85 wrote:

Kairos wrote:

odorofdeath wrote:If your that desperate for new Chaos stuff, then just use JustDave's Chaos fandex. It'll probably end up being better than the new codex anyway.

No man. I have read Just Dave's book several times. It is better than the current book, but the best build still centers around dual lash + obliterators. You can do other things
in it like take Chosen and Possessed as troops, and he made several units usefull again. However, it is not enough or fresh enough. Chaos needs to have things completely
redone, and needs to be able to take devastating assault armies that can hang with Grey Knights.

I am so sick of the current book, I have honestly contemplated setting it on fire on more than 1 occassion.

I hear the next chaos book will have fairies and princesses in it. Is that enough of a redo for you?
But seriously, it is just a game. Ghost's rumors were false, but it's not THAT big a deal. It's obnoxious, but the anger you're displaying is a bit much.

It is a big deal for me. It is not funny to deceive the entire Chaos fanbase, and send all of the major 40K websites on a wild goose chase.
He is just hiding in his mommies basement now, and I bet he has even created new dummy accounts to post under.

I'm a huge chaos fanboy. Its my favorite thing about warhammer and warhammer 40k. And i personally think you are way too upset about this. Ghost21s rumours. I was disappointed to hear that they were all false, and i was upset for a while, but really, in the end, its a game. while it IS a game that is a significant part of my life, its a game, and its NOT a big deal.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Other Fun Fact: Anecdotal evidence isn't.

Apology: People seemed to be discussing the fact that "nobody plays LOTR", so I decided to chip in.

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Other Fun Fact: Anecdotal evidence isn't.

Apology: People seemed to be discussing the fact that "nobody plays LOTR", so I decided to chip in.

Well its more of excessive exaggeration that lotr is indeed the lesser of the three when tallied, coupled with anger at GW showing attention elsewhere

Anyways, back to chaos

aka_mythos wrote: His codex is really just the "status quo plus" it still suffers from the conceptual limitations of the current book. While it’s creative in some ways, it’s lacking in other more meaningful ways... Just my opinion.

As you say current approach is just too lacking. It doesn't make sense conceptually, it doesn't represent what it says it does, and its has weak rules. The book is non-distinct where more than half the units are cookie cuttered from Space Marines or are just plain wimpier for no real reason. With the way a number of units are in this Chaos Codex, it's motto should be: "I sold my soul to the Ruinous powers and all I got was this T-shirt."

I agree with this post. The biggest issue with the current CSM book is its structure. What doesn’t help though is that it was also written by Alessio Cavatore, who is infamous for his excessive streamlining (even his Mantic rules suffer from the same issues as the CSM codex).

Although justDave’s codex is a lot more flexible and better written than the current book, its structure is still based off the current book and thus is suffers from the same issues. A true CSM codex needs to follow a unique structure (and not be based off the psudeo-loyalist structure that was used in the 3.0 and 4.0 codices). Given that the current GK book is radically different from other codices in terms of pt cost and structure, I think we can expect to see the legion codex to be radically different from the current one.

candy.man wrote:Although justDave’s codex is a lot more flexible and better written than the current book, its structure is still based off the current book and thus is suffers from the same issues. A true CSM codex needs to follow a unique structure (and not be based off the psudeo-loyalist structure that was used in the 3.0 and 4.0 codices). Given that the current GK book is radically different from other codices in terms of pt cost and structure, I think we can expect to see the legion codex to be radically different from the current one.

How would you structure them?

I'm kind of glad that the ghost21 guy was lying, some of that noise he was saying about Tau was making me worried (Squats). Part of my Chaos army I made into World Eaters, and the other part into my own Warband. They are designed to use parts from eachother, the Warband is shooting oriented/special forces (all the special and heavy weapons), the WE are all beserkers, and units of 8 all Fearless and have Kharn and a Daemon Prince.

My friends let me use drop pod rules for my CSMs, so I've been OK with the current book (the one I learned with). I have played with Dave's fandex, and it was fun (chosen army was really expensive points wise...but fun). I may see if I can find the 3.5 and play a couple games with that to get a feel, IIRC, Beserkers had chainaxes that nothing got a better save than 4+ (or they could take them, or something). That would make some Grey Knights cry

H.B.M.C. wrote: How would you structure them?

That’s a tough question. I’ve actually spent a lot of time on this and have yet to come up with a proper answer. The flaw with the current book (aside from Alessio’s hamfisted writing) is that it includes both “dedicated cult units” and dynamic dedication via icons/marks. You can’t base a structure off both as you only set yourself up for failure. What also doesn’t help is that both types of units in the codex aren’t equal in power.

A structure around dedicated units generates too much duplicate units and requires the codex to be mono god. A structure with dynamic dedication done incorrectly results in either a streamlined "Alessio" type ruleset or something with too much flexibility ala GK (justDave’s legion rules suffers from the same problem as GK).

Honestly, at the moment I’m more in favour of a structure based around a dynamic marking system. Although what I would do differently is make marks replace existing USRs in their profile rather than add additional ones (it’s easier to balance this way). They’d also add strengths to their profile at the cost of adding serious restrictions (e.g. MoK gives +1A but adds heavy wargear restrictions). I’d also add an additional rule where units can only take a mark as long as there is a HQ with the same mark in the army (which essentially prevents the creation of “super flexible” lists). Given how all the recent MEQ codices are rolling in units that contains stacks of special rules (for little pt cost), there’s no reason why this wouldn’t work.

I agree with that approach. That's why I liked the 3.5 Codex so much. There wasn't a unit entry for Khorne Berzerkers or Plague Marines because it wasn't necessary - the rules for Marks covered everything.

Right now a unit of Plague Marines is different from a unit of Nurgle-dedicated Marines... and there are no Plague Terminators. It's incongruent and inconsistent.

With 3.5 the Mark of Nurgle gave the rules to the unit, so you had a CSM or Chosen Terminator unit, and giving them the MoN did the same thing to both. They became Plague [whatevers] when the Mark was given, not because they were listed as Plague [whatevers] in the unit entry.

That system worked, and allowed you to balance things at an army level than at a unit level. It's very easy to go "You may give the Mark of Nurgle to the following units: X, Y, Z" and then leave it at that.

3.5 also had a way to avoid that super-flexible problem you mentioned. The ancient enemies rules. Your commander has a Mark of Khorne? Ok. Fine. No Slaaneshi units and all Tzeentch and Nurgle units count as Elites. Change that around for all the other Chaos Gods. Worked a treat (except in one instance - Slaaneshi Havoc armies, with 3 HS Undivided Havoc units and 3 Elite Slaaneshi Havoc units, giving you 6 HS slots!).

I liked the 3.5 book as well which is why I based my idea around it. It’s essentially the same except that it uses the “replacement” mechanic from the Vanilla Marine codex.

Probably the only flaw with the 3.5 codex was that the benefits were “too good” and the restrictions/flaws outside of Khorne/Tzeentch weren’t strong enough. Ideally if they toned the strength of the benefits and increased the restrictions/flaws, the codex structure would have been perfect.

In regards to that Slaanesh example, that was the result of the codex overusing the “Elites swapping” mechanic for marked units. The fact that any marked, non-elite units could be swapped into the elites slot (under certain conditions) allowed the player to double up on units, creating extra synergy that the designers never intended.

All I want is for basic Chaos Space Marines to get stubborn or fearless as a special rule or a points reduction in the new book.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I agree with that approach. That's why I liked the 3.5 Codex so much. There wasn't a unit entry for Khorne Berzerkers or Plague Marines because it wasn't necessary - the rules for Marks covered everything.

Right now a unit of Plague Marines is different from a unit of Nurgle-dedicated Marines... and there are no Plague Terminators. It's incongruent and inconsistent.

With 3.5 the Mark of Nurgle gave the rules to the unit, so you had a CSM or Chosen Terminator unit, and giving them the MoN did the same thing to both. They became Plague [whatevers] when the Mark was given, not because they were listed as Plague [whatevers] in the unit entry.

That system worked, and allowed you to balance things at an army level than at a unit level. It's very easy to go "You may give the Mark of Nurgle to the following units: X, Y, Z" and then leave it at that.

3.5 also had a way to avoid that super-flexible problem you mentioned. The ancient enemies rules. Your commander has a Mark of Khorne? Ok. Fine. No Slaaneshi units and all Tzeentch and Nurgle units count as Elites. Change that around for all the other Chaos Gods. Worked a treat (except in one instance - Slaaneshi Havoc armies, with 3 HS Undivided Havoc units and 3 Elite Slaaneshi Havoc units, giving you 6 HS slots!).

Yeah, this is probably the best solution, assuming the marks are priced correctly and the benefits are better than the icons are currently. My Terminators(and even Obliterators if I want!) should be able to be T5 and FNP. Price it fairly and it shouldn't be an issue to have every unit be able to receive a mark.

BDJV wrote:All I want is for basic Chaos Space Marines to get stubborn or fearless as a special rule or a points reduction in the new book.

This is like when my girlfriend made a wish last week and wished for chocolate cake. Sure, it's good, but you can wish for anything and that's all you want?

BDJV wrote:All I want is for basic Chaos Space Marines to get stubborn or fearless as a special rule or a points reduction in the new book.

Vanilla CSM are actually pretty damn good at their current points cost. With the reroll from Chaos Glory they're a solid unit. Morale's gotta mean something to somebody.

Brother SRM wrote:

BDJV wrote:All I want is for basic Chaos Space Marines to get stubborn or fearless as a special rule or a points reduction in the new book.

Vanilla CSM are actually pretty damn good at their current points cost. With the reroll from Chaos Glory they're a solid unit. Morale's gotta mean something to somebody.

The only problem is that CSM coasts about as much as a Tac squad, but we don't get TSKNF. The CCW/pistol also dosen't make up for it, when guys like Space Wolves and Blood Angles have that plus TSKNF....

In all honesty a CSM should just have "Chaos Glory" as a special rule, and get re-roll-able leadership. =U

If not, then yah... They should be cheaper. you don't realize how good TSKNF is on marines, until you play marines with out it.

If it's true that GW hiding release information is only because of The Hobbit and it'll go back to normal afterwards, I'm cool with it-they're under contract and they shouldn't break it if it was part of the deal. That's not to say I'm happy they make LotR material-I tried it a bit, didn't take. But if they are forced to keep things secret for now, then we just have to deal with that. However, I say this ONLY with the condition that things go back to normal and we get to know what's coming in the future after The Hobbit has come out. If it stays the way it is now after there is no reason for secrecy, I become a lot less understanding

Vanilla CSM are actually pretty damn good at their current points cost. With the reroll from Chaos Glory they're a solid unit. Morale's gotta mean something to somebody.

I would say good, but not great. The rest of the Troops section is so subpar it makes even vanilla CSM look fairly good in comparison; they're lack of ATSKNF/Stubborn really makes them seem more cowardly than I imagine 10,000 year old, immortal lords of destruction to be.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I agree with that approach. That's why I liked the 3.5 Codex so much. There wasn't a unit entry for Khorne Berzerkers or Plague Marines because it wasn't necessary - the rules for Marks covered everything.

Right now a unit of Plague Marines is different from a unit of Nurgle-dedicated Marines... and there are no Plague Terminators. It's incongruent and inconsistent.

With 3.5 the Mark of Nurgle gave the rules to the unit, so you had a CSM or Chosen Terminator unit, and giving them the MoN did the same thing to both. They became Plague [whatevers] when the Mark was given, not because they were listed as Plague [whatevers] in the unit entry.

That system worked, and allowed you to balance things at an army level than at a unit level. It's very easy to go "You may give the Mark of Nurgle to the following units: X, Y, Z" and then leave it at that.

3.5 also had a way to avoid that super-flexible problem you mentioned. The ancient enemies rules. Your commander has a Mark of Khorne? Ok. Fine. No Slaaneshi units and all Tzeentch and Nurgle units count as Elites. Change that around for all the other Chaos Gods. Worked a treat (except in one instance - Slaaneshi Havoc armies, with 3 HS Undivided Havoc units and 3 Elite Slaaneshi Havoc units, giving you 6 HS slots!).

Dont forget the Divine/Holy numbers or whatever its called. As best as I can tell, this concept has been entirely removed from the fluff as it appears nowhere in the chaos daemons book, and I cant find it in the CSM book either.

That's more of the stream-lining. If we hadn't gone through the 'Jervis Era', we'd still have Sacred Numbers.

A few musings I posted in 40k General Discussion - it seems more appropriate here

As it stands GW has two codices and there is some supplementary (but non-official) material covered by Forgeworld.
The problem is that even taken together this barely scratches the surface of the possibilities for Chaos armies (from a 'fluff' perspective) and there are very few competitive builds available either.

So what would need to be in to cope with all eventualities?

The Legions. The last survivors of the heresy, these should be among the galaxy's most elite warriors and more than a match one on one for a standard marine. They need equipment options that reflect both their pre-heresy wargear and prolongued exposure to the environments of the Daemon-worlds they call home; they also need the skills and abilities that 10,000 years of conflict has honed.
Oh yes, and there needs to be 9 different types to accurately capture the the differing nature of the legions.

Daemons. Servants of the four greater powers and access to preferrably more than just the one variety (furies) of unaligned lesser daemons.

Cultists. Worshippers of Chaos (either a single power or the pantheon), likely to be smaller groups, often with a high degree of mutation (especially for the cult magus and other high ranking members). Functioning as infiltrators or saboteurs or engaged in summoning rituals.

Traitors. Guard and/or Marine units who have been corrupted from within and who have thrown in their lot with Chaos forces. Will retain their previous skills and equipment for the most part. Ranking members likely to show the first outward signs of corruption.


To fully flesh out every option would give you hundreds of unit choices and/or options, combining most of current IG, SM, CSM, Daemons, Forgeworld Cult/LatD stuff and probably some new bits and pieces as well.
Whilst it could be done the whole thing would be broken beyond belief as advantageous (however unfluffy) combos would be coming from all angles.

The only way to attempt any measure of control would be to introduce a complex 'unlocking' system where taking certain units would allow some options and restrict others. Its the kind of thing you could do with a clever computer programme but not easily in a book or series of books (note I said easily, not 'at all' ).

There are a few considerations here:
1. GW will not write a system that 'Little Timmy (TM)' will struggle to understand.
2. As much as GW isn't exactly strict on balance issues they won't let you have a free-for-all that even Jervis could exploit the loopholes in.
3. GW policy is not to do 'crossovers' so there is no clever way of exploiting having allies from other codices in the manner of the old Witchhunter/Daemonhunter books (although I believe this could provide a good solution).
4. GW will never give Chaos as much love as Marines, so the likelihood of multiple books covering individual legions is zero. I doubt Chaos will ever run with more than 3 lists - even if the vague rumour that the new Chaos book will be in addition to, rather than replacing the current CSM 'dex is true (and I don't think it is).

Given all the above, I struggle to get excited about the new 'dex. I just can't see how GW will square the circle within the restrictions they've set themselves.

Lockark wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:

BDJV wrote:All I want is for basic Chaos Space Marines to get stubborn or fearless as a special rule or a points reduction in the new book.

Vanilla CSM are actually pretty damn good at their current points cost. With the reroll from Chaos Glory they're a solid unit. Morale's gotta mean something to somebody.

The only problem is that CSM coasts about as much as a Tac squad, but we don't get TSKNF. The CCW/pistol also dosen't make up for it, when guys like Space Wolves and Blood Angles have that plus TSKNF....

In all honesty a CSM should just have "Chaos Glory" as a special rule, and get re-roll-able leadership. =U

If not, then yah... They should be cheaper. you don't realize how good TSKNF is on marines, until you play marines with out it.

I don't think rerolls of leadership are enough to give a proper feel the Chaos Space Marines. IMO

Brother SRM wrote:

BDJV wrote:All I want is for basic Chaos Space Marines to get stubborn or fearless as a special rule or a points reduction in the new book.

Vanilla CSM are actually pretty damn good at their current points cost. With the reroll from Chaos Glory they're a solid unit. Morale's gotta mean something to somebody.

It's pretty good until you have one bad round of assault. Sure morale should only be important to the Marines that live day by day with the terrors within the warp.

odorofdeath wrote:

I would say good, but not great. The rest of the Troops section is so subpar it makes even vanilla CSM look fairly good in comparison; they're lack of ATSKNF/Stubborn really makes them seem more cowardly than I imagine 10,000 year old, immortal lords of destruction to be.

Exactly, it's really lame that one bad round of assault can totally make maniacal warriors that live in the warp run like school girls.

I don't want unbeatable Chaos Marines I would like to see ones that are extremely hard to break in the assault, befitting their place in the 40k universe.

You know, I wouldn't mind if they created NEW daemons, rather than the typical 4 greater daemons/ 4 lesser.

If they had gotten creative, and made these beings from some unnatural substance of chaos undivided, or had made them unique beings in their own right. We might have accepted them (..They'd still have a stupid name, but hopefully they change)

Furies are a good example of undivided, the warp is everchanging, so new daemons being produced in the wake of the millennium isn't exactly new, they'd just need to think and produce more. The 4 gods aren't the only creation of daemons after all, the warp is constantly changing, creating

So we could have new Daemons, maybe an option for marked daemons, but new creations would be exciting. Maybe even daemons the legion has personally created/tamed while they've been there.

A minor point...

If the 6th ed starter set will include "cultists", wouldn't this suggest that the codex will have to come out before 6th edition, in order to make cultists usable?

This may have been discussed earlier, just something that occurred to me